SU abilities with the phrase "acts like "


Rules Questions


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I was discussing with my GM about this and was wondering how others interpret it.

I'm playing a shaman and his hexes pretty clearly state: Using a hex is a standard action that doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity unless otherwise noted.

His contention is that if an SU ability states in it's description that it "acts like <spell>" then it picks up all the trappings of being a spell, AoO, spell resistance, components (V,S and/or M), etc. That the phrase "acts like <spell>" is the "unless otherwise noted" exception.

I can see how you could make that leap, but why call it a SU ability then and not a spell-like ability which is what you've accomplished by doing that.

Shadow Lodge

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Even spell-like abilities don't ever have components.


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Acts like <spell> is there to avoid having to write a new effect for every such ability, not as a way to add back in spell components etc. IMO.

Liberty's Edge

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CRB p. 554-555 wrote:

Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are

magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table 16–1 for a summary of the types of special abilities.

...

Table 16–1: Special Ability Types
Supernatural
Dispel No
Spell resistance No
Antimagic field Yes
Attack of opportunity No
Dispel: Can dispel magic and similar spells dispel the effects of abilities of that type?
Spell Resistance: Does spell resistance protect a creature from these abilities?
Antimagic Field: Does an antimagic field or similar magic suppress the ability?
Attack of Opportunity: Does using the ability provoke attacks
of opportunity the way that casting a spell does?

Acts as <spell x> define only the effect on the target of the SU ability.

The text of the spell defines the valid targets, duration, and area, plus what is on the text of the spell. And even those parameters can be changed by the text of the SU ability.

"Work as" is simply a way to reduce the text space.


This discussion would go much better if the specific hex in question was named.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

It was a general discussion not about but specifics ones. But say Healing Hex

This acts as a cure light wounds spell, using the witch’s caster level. Once a creature has benefited from the healing hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours. At 5th level, this hex acts like cure moderate wounds.

or Flight Hex (although this one is much more ambiguous due to wording)

At 1st level, the witch can use feather fall at will and gains a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. At 3rd level, she can cast levitate once per day. At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments. This hex only affects the witch.

Does the SU ability have spell manifestations? AoO? SR? SU says no, GM says yes because it "act like" and in the case of Flight it says cast levitate.

I agree that it's just a space saving device but not how it is being view by GM.


Well, the abilities don't state that you're using it as a spell or as a spell like ability. What's more hexes are specified as being supernatural. So, regardless what it does it is still a supernatural ability.

The DM is of course welcome to rule things however they like. This ruling is contrary to the rules. I would point out that if for some reason it's suddenly a spell then you should be able to use metamagic feats and/or rods with them. Also, possessing the hex (if it's a spell) should probably qualify the character to use spell trigger and spell completion items based on the same spell. Under the normal rules none of this works since SU abilities =/= spells.

I feel like your DM is trying to curtail some perceived "OPness". The reality is there are pros and cons to spells and supernatural abilities. SU abilities don't come with all the same limitations as spells, but they also don't benefit from anything that boosts spells either regardless what kind of spell they are replicating.


So for both flight and healing I believe its a standard action to manifest the effect. They give you the abilities of the spell cast at your level. There are no components because its a SU ability. SU abilites can't be disrupted and don't trigger AoO.

In the case of flight it would of been slightly more friendly if the text just say "you gain a fly speed of 60" but apparently the designer wants the witch to spend a standard action to start their flight.

Spell manifestation isn't covered by SU. As in SU are so varied that they could be included in them at the GM's whim. If the GM wants to say that hexes count for that, that isn't a big deal.

This is a lot like a GM letting someone with detect magic pick up 'residual traces of magic'. Most of the time that goes outside of the RAW and is there for story purposes. If the GM wants to have certain SU abilities be detectable, don't fight it.

I would complain about AoO, SR and anyone attempting to dispel the hexes like they were spells. That is mechanical stuff and weakening the ability. SU are suppose to be powerful, and all of these mechanics make SU abilities clearly superior to spells.


Agodeshalf wrote:
But say Healing Hex

Here's your answer, in a manner that your DM shouldn't be able to argue with. Obviously they can rule however they want, but the rules - as written - tell you what to do.

Quote:
Healing (Su): A witch can soothe the wounds of those she touches. This acts as a cure light wounds spell, using the witch’s caster level. Once a creature has benefited from the healing hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours. At 5th level, this hex acts like cure moderate wounds.

The key is the part before the colon.

It says "(Su)". That's Paizo explicitly, specifically telling you this specific hex is a supernatural ability. If it was a spell-like ability, it'd say "(Sp)". If "acts like" meant "is a spell", Paizo would have granted it as a spell, not a supernatural.

The best way to read "acts like" is "has the results of". It's basically a "include the text already printed within such-and-such-a-spell". It does not say "acts like such-and-such-a-spell and uses the rules in the spellcasting chapter". 'Cuz it's a supernatural.

Fun fact: if someone had a class ability that was an (Ex) extraordinary ability, and it said "acts like such-and-such-a-spell", it would still work in an antimagic field because it's inherently nonmagical despite acting as if it was.

Acts, not is.


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For additional reading, I once tried to start a FAQ to answer about the activation time of supernatural abilities based on spells.

Link

The evolution of the warpriest summoning blessings mentioned in there is the closest thing we have to developer intent that working as a spell doesn’t normally include the casting time.


Meirril wrote:
In the case of flight it would of been slightly more friendly if the text just say "you gain a fly speed of 60" but apparently the designer wants the witch to spend a standard action to start their flight.

Fly (the spell) contains a whole bunch of rules beyond fly speed:

Quote:

The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good.

Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears. The subject gains a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 your caster level.

Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends safely in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field.

'As per the spell' is an efficient way of specifying rules for duration wearing off while flying, bonuses to Fly skill, ascent/descent speed, and carry limits.

...Although arguably that's more of an issue with the game not having simple and consistent rules for 'magical' flight versus 'mechanical/winged' flight.


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"Acts as" means "has the same effect as". It does not mean "cast".

Supernatural abilities are not spells.

Quote:
These can’t be disrupted in combat and generally don’t provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren’t subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don’t function in antimagic areas.

SLAs, are like spells, including being subject to everything just mentioned for SU abilities.

The flight hex is somewhat special, as it lets you cast levitate 1/day. The feather fall and fly effects are not spells, but levitate is.

As for manifestations, this FAQ covers it. Spells, SLAs, and Psychic Magic all have manifestations. Supernatural abilities, however are not included in this list.

/cevah

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