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One of the major things I hope from 2nd editions change from the playtest, is that I hope players will be more able to get flavourful ribbon-style abilities relating to their classes concept without needing to sacrifice the opportunity of class feats for combat based things.
Do other people agree, or are flavourful ribbon abilities not as important to the general perspective?
I like flavorful abilities, but I have no idea what "ribbon-style" means.
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I just googled it. Seems that it means non-combat things to do. Favored Terrain, Slow Fall, Timeless Body, that sort of thing.
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I mean, I've long thought that monks shouldn't have to sacrifice "good at punching" or "a useful ki power" to run on walls and balance on poles and stuff.
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I like flavorful abilities, but I have no idea what "ribbon-style" means.
Ribbons are small powers that might never come up and normally wont give an edge in combat, but just exist to be a flavourful mechanic widget. "not aging", "talking to burrowing animals", "anything prestigiditation can do", "being able to glow when you do cool stuff", "being able to conjure iconography of your god", etc.
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They should all be automatic from class progression, else you will never see them again despite how cool and thematic they are. If not, they should use up some sort of slot where they only compete versus each other.
The same mistake from PF1 feats must not be made!
Definitely agree. In fact, I'd rather like the most iconic ribbons (especially Monk ones like TB and other immunities for minimal quality of life) to show up on the odd levels (provided that class feats still usually show up on even levels).
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I disapprove of the term Ribbon being used like this.
Also, Gold Star in case you had the urge to use that term.
Both are wrong. You're welcome.
I disapprove of the term Ribbon being used like this.
You should write Wizards of the Coast a stern note, then.
Ribbons
On the R&D team, any ability meant to convey flavor
rather than a mechanical advantage is referred to as a
ribbon—a thing that’s mostly for show. Thieves’ Cant is
a great example of a ribbon ability, and Storm Guide
also falls into this category.
Not sure I'm particularly fond of the term either, but at least it isn't just internet slang.
I guess Favored Terrain doesn't count though since it is a mechanical advantage?
True. It does offer advantage. But for purposes of the discussion, it could be broadened to anything not directly combat related, I would think.
I like flavorful abilities, but I have no idea what "ribbon-style" means.Ribbons are small powers that might never come up and normally wont give an edge in combat, but just exist to be a flavourful mechanic widget. "not aging", "talking to burrowing animals", "anything prestigiditation can do", "being able to glow when you do cool stuff", "being able to conjure iconography of your god", etc.
Then I side with Quandary that "ribbon" is a weak name. Ribbons are colorful, but the metaphor is that they are added color, tied on or sewn on. A metaphor in which the color is dyed in the wool would serve Pathfinder better. Instead, let's call this a fine feather, a reference to fine-feathered birds, feathered nest, feather in the cap, and the lightness of a feather.
Druids gain "not aging" because they shapechange and to reflect the longevity of the forest. Gnomes talk to burrowing animals because it is part of the gnome folklore (gnome folklore is very convoluted, because fantasy gnomes are a mix of gnome earth spirits and garden gnome statues). Presitidigitation is an allusion to stage magic in a world with real magic. Glowing references halo glows from Christian art.
Ancestries ought to be a good source of fine feathers. What does the culture teach everybody? What racial benefits are people born with? Maybe all gnomes can speak with burrowing animals.
Subclasses could use some fine feathers. Right now they are mostly defined by how they mechanically divide the class into distinct branches, but each subclass ought to have a tradition associated with it. For example, the subclasses of bard are lore muse, maestro muse, and polymath muse.
The lore muse could have, "You are an all-round performer, knowing over a hundred songs and stories and able to handle any situation from babysitting village children to presiding over a king's funeral. You never need to spend more than one day in preparation for Practice a Trade or Stage a Performance."
The maestro muse could have, "Your talent has granted you social esteem. People concerned about social status have their initial attitude toward you--Hostile, Unfriendly, Indifferent, Friendly, or Helpful--raised one higher upon learning your identity. People already Helpful fawn over you with small gifts and favors."
The polymath muse could have, "Your multifaceted skills let you see the music in everyday objects. You can use any handheld object, including your weapon, as an improvised two-handed musical instrument with the usual -2 item penalty for improvised items."
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I'd rather call them ribbons.
I'd rather call them ribbons.
People getting hung up on semantics here. Regardless of the name, what do you think the future holds for these abilities?
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I'd rather call them ribbons.People getting hung up on semantics here. Regardless of the name, what do you think the future holds for these abilities?
The likelihood is they will be moved to Skill Feats with a tag of "X" where "X" is the name of the Class (same as Class Feats in that regard).
Allowing you to spend a Class, Skill, or General, to take them. If you use a Class Feat, I think the idea is you would retrain it to use a Skill Feat.
This would lineup with the "every other level" concept mentioned prior.
Now I still think the competition between Combat based Class Features and old Combat Feats is a bit too much, but they've already hinted at the above when the Pirate archetype was discussed.
Also this thread is basically just a rehash of the things that I and Waterslethe and a few others have already pointed out. There is a bottle neck in the Class Feat silo at the moment (at least as far as the playtest).
I'd rather call them ribbons.People getting hung up on semantics here. Regardless of the name, what do you think the future holds for these abilities?
I think that some of the flavor abilities could show up in the Ancestries, since Paizo said they added more impact to Ancestries. Lots of flavor without much mechanical weight would be the impact that strains the system least.
I doubt that Paizo added any more flavor to the classes or subclasses. They were limited on time as they turned the playtest into the final version. However, extra flavor abilitie could show up as optional rules in the first supplemental books.
Whether backgrounds gained any more flavor is a coin flip.
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I think backgrounds could be a good use for this as well. Maybe a supplementary book where based on which ability boosts your background gives you (since they won't be able to name all backgrounds they create, I think grouping them by which ability boosts they give you would be sufficient) , it will allow you to pick a background feat of some sort, that gives you flavourful out of combat abilities.
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I thought this thread was going to be about magic items that give immunity to status effects...
I actually want Ribbons to be tied to the various things I pick, even if that means they are tied to "combat" stuff.
Like I don't want "can manifest minor animal features at will" to be something any druid can do. But if I've picked up the shape shifting feat I think it would be flavorful and appropriate ability. Not every feat would work with this, but I think a lot could.
Well, I don't like the concept of 'ribbons' being non-combat features that therefore don't impact the game, because for me, the game is about far more than combat. So I don't like the idea that things that are non-combat are flavor.
I suspect they kept Encounter, Exploration, and Downtime, and abilities that provide benefits mechanically to any of those phases are relevant mechanical boosts.
I definitely feel like Ancestries could do with a significant boost to their flavor and abilities, from where they got left in the playtest, even after the updates. So, if you want some Ribbons for Ancestry, I'm all with you there. But I think they can use some mechanical differences too, so that shouldn't be surprising I'd be fine with getting some ribbons too.
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Think classes need to have them, not just ancestries and backgrounds (Backgrounds SHOULD have them too, though). Monk and Ranger always had a bunch of stuff that people ignore, but it's part of their identity.
I actually want Ribbons to be tied to the various things I pick, even if that means they are tied to "combat" stuff.
Like I don't want "can manifest minor animal features at will" to be something any druid can do. But if I've picked up the shape shifting feat I think it would be flavorful and appropriate ability. Not every feat would work with this, but I think a lot could.
Someone else mentioned something similar, though who is escaping me.
It was in the discussions for the Class Feats bottleneck, where Class Feats would scale every 4 levels with something combat based, and at the other even intervals a non-combat based increase would occur.
For example, Sudden Charge could consume Fast Movement and then be a scaling increase that occurs at level 4 (instead of costing another Class Feat), then perhaps at level 8 you get Sudden Leap for free (instead of having to pay an additional Class Feat).
It might be safer from a power perspective to just keep Class Feats as is, and have the Skill Feats being the ones that scale (ala Catfall) but personally given how starved the new Class Feats are vs. Combat Feats+Class Features I don't really see a reason to.
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I really hope they aren't just moved to skill feats, since I want to be able to get supernatural abilities that fit the flavour of my classes.
I really hope they aren't just moved to skill feats, since I want to be able to get supernatural abilities that fit the flavour of my classes.
Oh I think they will occupy both, if that makes sense.
I.E.
Nimble Step - Monk Skill 2
Where you can spend a Class Feat or a Skill Feat (or General for that matter), but you are still required to be a Monk because the Feat is still a Monk tagged feat.
This is at least what they alluded to when they described the changes to the Pirate Archetype, so I would expect Class Feats to follow a similar paradigm to allow for non-combat selections for Classes that do not have to compete against other combat focused Class Feats.
I could be totally wrong, but there are some signs that seem to be pointing to that implementation.