Can You Switch Targets on a Pounce?

[Balkoth]

Say a creature with 5 attacks pounces on an enemy.

Can they...

1, switch targets if they kill that enemy with one of their first four attacks? Assume there's at least one more enemy within their reach (does direction matter for a charge?)

2, switch targets before even attacking their first target?

[Meirril]

RAW: There are no provisions that prevent you from attacking a different creature at the end of your charge movement.

RAI: As the word Pounce indicates, the attacker is suppose to land on the victim. Also the whole bonus to charge implies that you are using your momentum to rush a single target. Everything about charge implies you are completely focused on a single target. Taken together the attacker shouldn't be allowed to spread its attacks around, especially not with a charge bonus to hit. The idea that the attacker would charge and then totally ignore the target of the charge is utterly ridiculous.

[willuwontu]

Yes, just as you can switch targets on a full attack, you can switch targets on a pounce since pounce is a full attack.

[Kayerloth]

Stictly speaking by RAW yes you could switch/change targets even before the attacking the first target.

But I'm with Meirril as far as RAW vs RAI. At minimum your alternate first choice (switch targets prior to attacking first target) would have to be a rules legal charge in any case for me to agree.

Some of it would be conceptual as well. I can see a creature (mentally picture a young cat) 'pouncing' on a group of smaller creatures or items (a bunch toys for instance) without aiming for one in particular. Gets a bit more difficult if the target is larger then the attacker and or the targets are not clumped together tightly. It might pounce on "Mom" or a clumped group of its siblings but less likely to do both.

[Dave Justus]

I disagree with the above.

Charge includes in it a 'designated opponent' and that implies that that is the opponent that you are attacking.

Leaving aside pounce completely for a moment, I wouldn't allow someone to 'charge' the wizard (who is 10 feet from the fighter) and then attack the fighter (after ending up adjacent to both the wizard and fighter), thus getting around the closest square rule of charging. The designated target of the charge has to be the designated target of the attack, even though that isn't explicitly spelled out, I think it is certainly assumed.

So if you can't do it with your one attack on a normal charge, then I don't see anything that would let you do it with multiple attacks on a pounce. The designated target has to be the target for the movement of the charge and the attacks associated with the charge.

Just because something isn't explicitly stated (in this case that the designated target of the charge has to be the target of the attack) doesn't mean that 'RAW' doesn't say that. It isn't a legal document, it is rules for a game and basic reading comprehension tells us that the designated target is the target for the action as a whole, not just the movement portion of it.

[MrCharisma]

Rules text for context: (I edited out parts that seemed irrelevant, but there's a link in the name for each quote)

CHARGE wrote:

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
...
You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.
...
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
...
Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
...

POUNCE wrote:

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

So as far as I can see there's nothing that says you have to attack the creature that you moved toward, but the wording does reference a "designated opponent". There doesn't seem to be anything here telling us what the "designated opponent" is, or how you interact with them, but grammatically you would charge "something":

CHARGE DEFINITION wrote:

- Rrush forward in attack.

"the plan is to charge headlong at the enemy"
synonyms: rush, move quickly, storm, stampede, career, tear, push, plough, swoop, dive, lunge, launch oneself, throw oneself, go headlong; More
antonyms: retreat
- Rush aggressively towards (someone or something) in attack.
"I don't advise anyone to charge that barricade"
synonyms: attack, storm, rush, assault, assail, open fire on, fall on, set upon, swoop on, descend on, fly at, make an onslaught on, make a raid on

In these definitions we see that a charge is directed at something.

My general rule is that unless Paizo has a specific definition of a word we use it as it would be used in the dictionary ... In this case Paizo DOES have a specific definition, so this gets a bit harder.

MY INTERPRETATION: As an action you must charge AT someone/something, thus your first attack would have to target that creature/thing. Your subsequent attacks wouldn't be subject to this since Pounce is giving you the ability to make a special different action.

I'm open to other interpretations, but that's the one that makes sense to me.

(PS, Links to Archivesofnethys for CHARGE and POUNCE. No difference in the wording that I could see.)

[Dave Justus]

I read pounce as being able to make a full attack instead of the standard attack normally.

That wouldn't let you change from the limitations on that attack, particularly that it be against the 'designated opponent'.

Charge without pounce:

Move in a line to the nearest position to a designated opponent and make a single attack against that opponent.

Charge with pounce:

Move in a line to the nearest position to a designated opponent and make a full attack against that opponent.

While pounce gives you a full attack, it says nothing about being able to change the opponent, and if you can't change the single opponent target of a charge, then I don't think you can change the opponent with pounce either.

[MrCharisma]

Dave Justus wrote:

While pounce gives you a full attack, it says nothing about being able to change the opponent, and if you can't change the single opponent target of a charge, then I don't think you can change the opponent with pounce either.

I guess a normal charge doesn't need any of that wording since you can't attack 2 people with 1 attack (usually anyway). This doesn't seem like a special limitation on charge, it's more a limitation on making a single attack. Since charge doesn't seem to have any language even saying you have to attack the "designated opponent" (it does seem pretty vaguely worded) I can't see anything preventing you from attacking other nearby enemies.

I do think charging Creature-X and delivering all your attacks against Creature-Y would be gaming the system a bit much though.

[Ryze Kuja]

MrCharisma wrote:

I do think charging Creature-X and delivering all your attacks against Creature-Y would be gaming the system a bit much though.

Exactly. I wouldn't allow someone to charge a target and deliver attacks on another nearby simply for this reason.

If you read the Charge rules, it never once insinuates that you can charge a target and deliver the attack to another nearby target, and Pounce is just a full attack at the end of a charge, so... just to avoid the abuse, I'd say the extra attacks from Pounce cannot be used on a target near the target of your charge.

[ShadowcatX]

IMO: It's a bit more complicated than either side is making it out to be, so let's go through it slow. As was pointed out pounce implies jumping on a target, and that idea is reinforced by allowing the rakes (if the pouncing creature has any) which are generally performed by the back legs. The wording is also tinted towards you being forced to attack your designated opponent.
On the other hand the rules aren't crystal clear against attacking another opponent. And I can see it in my mind's eye, pouncing on one and clawing at others as the first collapses below you.
The way I think I would word it is you must attack your designated enemy. If it drops while you have attacks left you can attack other foes in your reach but without the benefits of the charge. It probably isn't strictly RAW or RAI, but I think it is a mostly happy medium.

[Evilserran]

What Shadowcatx says is how i most often see it in Pathfinder, and How i agree it should work, though since I play society as well, I have also seen it only allowing the attacks on the charged person.