About to get into a new campaign, and am looking at playing a Weretouched Shifter (haven't decided what aspect yet).
I was just wondering, what sort of classes would benefit from multiclassing with Shifter?
Side note: any suggestions for aspects that help with multiclassing are also appreciated. Preferably something without claws, as I plan on using my shifter claws. Don't need 2 sets of claws. Maybe a bit, or sting, or something (I'm thinking scorpion but I'm not super sure).
Weretouched Shifter is the most front-loaded archetype I know of. After level four, you have 80% of all class features you'll get.
I'd start out with a Wisdom of at least 14, then leave the class and never look back after you have your Hybrid form.
The Deinonychus aspect gives you five natural attacks (with Shifter Claws) and Pounce at level 4, which is when you'd be able to afford an Animal Mask for your 6th natural attack.
Bite/Claw/Claw/Talon/Talon/Gore, all primary natural attacks.
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After that, consider Bloodrager/Barbarian for access to the Furious enchantment and Rage. With Pounce, you could take a level of Mutagenic Mauler Brawler and the Horn of the Criosphinx feat for 2x Str (and 1.5 Power Attack) on all your charge attacks.
I'd been thinking about barbarian actually.
Didn't consider that level in Brawler though. That might actually be pretty good.
Depends on whether or not I decide to have a weapon in one hand, and use my naturals as secondaries. Haven't decided yet.
Also I know they're mostly for flavour, but would any prestige classes be of any benefit? Some of them look like a good time.
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I'd been thinking about barbarian actually.
Didn't consider that level in Brawler though. That might actually be pretty good.
Depends on whether or not I decide to have a weapon in one hand, and use my naturals as secondaries. Haven't decided yet.Also I know they're mostly for flavour, but would any prestige classes be of any benefit? Some of them look like a good time.
Horizon Walker. Become a teleporting lycanthropy
Depends on whether or not I decide to have a weapon in one hand, and use my naturals as secondaries. Haven't decided yet.
Well, it's quite the wasted opportunity to not rely on your primary natural attacks when you've spent four levels to get them. Nothing is stopping you from wielding a reach weapon to get AoOs between turns, though.
I only considered a weapon for higher level stuff coz I was worried about natural weapons still being good at higher levels. But I should be fine
If you have 6 natural attacks by level 4, you will be just fine in full attacks. That's more than even full BAB classes get at level 20 without dual wielding. The only manufactured weapon you should need would be a bow for when you can't get into melee range. Maybe a dagger or kunai made of alchemical silver or adamant or something to get past DR if you think you'll really need it.
The only thing that might make it hard to hit is that Amulet of Mighty Fists just go up to +5. A Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes goes up to +7 but only works on a single attack per round until your BAB gets to +6.
Oh true!
And yeah, I was already looking at an amulet of mighty fists. Those things work a treat.
Also looking into, once the natural attacks are enhanced, ways to get more.
I know Kobolds can get a tail attack (which my GM will let me get via Racial Heritage) but I'm not sure its worth the 2 feats.
I was doing the same with my own natural attack character. He got Bite from his race, Claws from one class, Tail Slap from another, and Gore from his helmet. I'm probably not going to get any others. The only one that wouldn't break the theme too badly would be talons, as a fox having claws on his hind legs makes sense, but I don't know how to get that.
I'm pretty sure I'd peak at 7.
After a tail attack, I can't see a way to get any other natural attacks.
Same. Good luck.
I mean, there's tentacles, sting, and wings but I'm not sure how'd I get them without investing a whole bunch of feets or levels in something like Alchemist
Found something we can both use! An animal totem tattoo. Link You get the totem transformation ability of a level 5 druid with one of the shaman archetypes. I'm going with the eagle for the talons. It also comes with a bite but my warpriest already has one. He now has Bite/Claw/Claw/Talon/Talon/Gore/Tail Slap. And only the Tail Slap is a secondary attack.
That's awesome! Defs grabbing one of those. Thanks for that!!
Scratch that, don't think it'll work for me.
Under the Totem Transformation part of everything Druid Shaman archetype it says the following:
"This is a polymorph effect and cannot be used while the druid is using another polymorph effect, such as wild shape."
Pretty sure hybrid form counts as a polymorph, so I can't use the two together.
Ouch. Sorry for that.
All good man!
I'll find other ways to be a terrifying monster man
I can get from six (bite, talon x2, claw x2, gore) to 9, but it would take 4 feats to do it. Hardly seems worth it.
I can get from six (bite, talon x2, claw x2, gore) to 9, but it would take 4 feats to do it. Hardly seems worth it.
You start out with six primary natural attacks at level 4. That's plenty enough.
You'd want to add damage to all those attacks after that, and start working on your defenses. The usual way is to go for Sneak Attack, but as a Rage/Mutagen Pouncer with Horn of the Crioshpinx your damage will be high and reliable.I'd take one or two levels in Savage Technologist barbarian, one level of Mutagenic Mauler brawler, then rest in Vigilante. Barbarian and Brawler is for damage, Vigilante is for shoring up your will save while giving you lots of skill points.
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You'll need the following feats:
Extra Rage
Horn of the Criosphinx (Basically doubles your damage)
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You'll want the following feats:
Shifter's Rush (to transform as part of a Charge)
Planar Wild Shape (DR/Energy Resistances)
Planar Heritage (Sylph)-> Airy Step -> Wings of Air (Constant fly speed)
Considering the way I'm gonna play this character, Slyph isn't really my speed. Flight is ace, but I don't need it terribly.
I'd rather go Aasimar and grab Angel Wings. For one extra feat I could grab Metallic Wings and get 2 extra attacks out of it.
Not to mention, as an Aasimar, with Scion of Humanity, I can take human feats, like racial heritage, and count as another race. Essentially opening me up to 3 different types of race feats.
Considering the way I'm gonna play this character, Slyph isn't really my speed. Flight is ace, but I don't need it terribly.
I'd rather go Aasimar and grab Angel Wings. For one extra feat I could grab Metallic Wings and get 2 extra attacks out of it.
Not to mention, as an Aasimar, with Scion of Humanity, I can take human feats, like racial heritage, and count as another race. Essentially opening me up to 3 different types of race feats.
No no, you don't play as a Sylph. Planar Heritage allows you to count as a Sylph for the feats. Aasimar isn't a great choice either, as you'll lose most of those features since you depend on Wild Shape. Out of their racial traits, you'll lose your resistances and darkvision.
Angel Wings have several disadvantages to Wings of Air, the most damning that they are literal wings so you can't use them while Wild Shaping. (Also, Wings of Air would give you a Fly speed of 70)
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And you'll definitely want a fly speed. Unless you want to sit at the sidelines whenever you encounter something flying or there's difficult terrain between you and the enemy archer.
Oh for real? I lose all that in hybrid form? Ah man, I must've read something wrong. My bad.
I'll have a look into all that other stuff though.
Still considering Aasimar though, coz being an angel dude that turns into a raptor man still sounds like a good time.
Horn of the Criosphinx requires you to he wielding a two handed weapon in both hands. How are you circumventing they requirement?
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With a level in Brawler (as they count their Brawler levels as Monk levels for feats):Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.
As long as you have Pounce, I consider it one of the best feats for natural attack builds as you'd also apply 2x Str to your secondaries.
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It also has the additional text:
To benefit from this feat, monks must have both hands free and be capable of delivering an unarmed strike.
Pretty sure that at the very least you'd need Feral Combat Training for this to work, but on top of that I'm pretty sure there's an FAQ that prevents this from applying to all of the attacks, meaning it would apply only to the first attack you make at the end of the charge.
"To benefit from the feats, monks must have both hands free and capable of delivering an unarmed strike." PotS pg. 13
"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack." CRB pg. 182
If you're attacking with claws, your hands are not "capable of delivering an unarmed strike" as per the CRB section, so you can't use the feat. So even by pure RAW, you would need to give up two natural attacks.
Of course, since the special note for the two "sphinx" feats explicitly mentions unarmed strike, and the flavor text talks about "fists instead of hammers", good luck finding a GM who allows Horn of the Criosphinx to work with natural attacks!
Also looking into, once the natural attacks are enhanced, ways to get more.
That's probably not the most sensitive course: If your six-primary-attacks character is able to land a full attack against a given enemy with no DR, you won't have any problems with that enemy, anyway; additional attack would merely be a "win more".
What you should instead do is shore up weaknesses. You will face enemies that you can't reach with a nice charge lane on the ground, enemies that have high AC, enemies that have DR, invisible/hidden/displaced enemies, enemies with nasty will save effects, and so on.There are a bunch of ways to go here - a single new martial class, a spellcasting class, or even a prestige class. The last one is actually kinda inviting because the biggest problem of prestige classes, that they don't progress class features, doesn't really bother you. As a natural attack based character, you don't need full BAB, either.
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Honestly... Brawer. Dedicated adversary is a hell of a feat for those with martial flexibility. Go Deionychus for pounce with 2 claws 2 talons and a bite for maximum attacks.
Alternatively go Bloodrager (same animal type for shifter) with a draconian bloodline, go 4 levels in dragon disciple too for a +4 to strength.
18 str at lv1, 4 shifter/ 4 bloodrager/ 4 dragon disciple with a +4 str belt, +1 at 4, 8, 12, raging, and haste, puts you at 35 strength with 6 natural attacks.
The Deepwater Rager would be an awesome archetype to dip into barbarian for.
It gains Spiraling Charge at 2nd level, which means not worrying about charge lanes so long as you're not actively moving further away from your enemy. Archetype doesn't give you much after 2nd level so you can multiclass again, but that's a huge charge bonus and it's a combat's worth of rage a day. Oh and Strong Lungs lets you do a raptor screech from Jurassic Park.
There's also the option of taking Oracle into Dragon Disciple. Would take 2 feats tho
Racial heritage, bud.
Works a charm.
It also has the additional text:
To benefit from this feat, monks must have both hands free and be capable of delivering an unarmed strike.Pretty sure that at the very least you'd need Feral Combat Training for this to work, but on top of that I'm pretty sure there's an FAQ that prevents this from applying to all of the attacks, meaning it would apply only to the first attack you make at the end of the charge.
You should prob quote the whole sentence there. That restriction only applies if you take the feat as a monk bonus feat.
Note: A monk can take any of these feats as bonus feats at the indicated levels. To benefit from the feats, monks must have both hands free and capable of delivering an unarmed strike.
Since we're not, this sentence is what applies.
Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.
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I know what FAQ you're talking about. It's the one about Pounce with Lances/Spirited Charge, right? It states that the Lance iteratives wouldn't benefit from "the charge's momentum" since you have to pull it back and stab again.
I'm of the opinion that it implies that you'd get no charge benefit on your iteratives, so no +2 to attack or mammoth hide. I would even go as far as to say that iteratives shouldn't count as "charge attacks" for effects.
Natural attacks, which all depend on different limbs, should all benefit from "the charge's momentum", though.
"To benefit from the feats, monks must have both hands free and capable of delivering an unarmed strike." PotS pg. 13
"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack." CRB pg. 182
If you're attacking with claws, your hands are not "capable of delivering an unarmed strike" as per the CRB section, so you can't use the feat. So even by pure RAW, you would need to give up two natural attacks.
That extra limitation only applies if you take the feats as monk bonus feats, which we don't. Here's the whole feat text:
You end your charge in a devastating two-handed attack.
Prerequisite(s): Base attack bonus +6 or monk level 6th.
Benefit(s): Whenever you make a successful charge attack while wielding a two-handed weapon in both hands, add two times your Strength bonus to the damage roll.
Normal: A character wielding a two-handed weapon adds 1-1/2 times her Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.
Note: A monk can take any of these feats as bonus feats at the indicated levels. To benefit from the feats, monks must have both hands free and capable of delivering an unarmed strike.
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So by "pure RAW", you just need your two hands empty. Nothing about being capable of making an unarmed strike.
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Of course, since the special note for the two "sphinx" feats explicitly mentions unarmed strike, and the flavor text talks about "fists instead of hammers", good luck finding a GM who allows Horn of the Criosphinx to work with natural attacks!
I haven't seen any such flavor text, but I agree the feat was most definitely intended to work with just Two-Handed weapons and unarmed strikes.
But as the feat has no problem with upgrading what is normally 1x unarmed attacks into 2x attacks, I don't see it being such a stretch. If my apparent "monkishness" has taught me how to apply double my strength to Unarmed Strikes, I would definitely argue that other attacks with my body shouldn't be much different.
You should prob quote the whole sentence there. That restriction only applies if you take the feat as a monk bonus feat.
It doesn't say that. The two sentence are seperate, and the second one doesn't reference bonus feats. And yes, RAW, Monks cannot use from the feats with a weapon.
I haven't seen any such flavor text
Well, there's a reason I usually look up such things in the actual books rather than soem site.
"The Pahmet have a deep respect for sphinxes. Long ago, Pahmet hammer-masters developed a fighting style based on certain attributes of the noble sphinxes, focusing particularly on how these creatures can stand steadfast even in the face of imminent onslaught or make their own deadly assaults at a moment's notice. Osirion's monastic Ouat dwarves developed parallel styles that utilized their fists instead of hammers."I would definitely argue that other attacks with my body shouldn't be much different.
By that logic, everything that applies to unarmed strikes should apply to natural attacks.
It's a special technique based on using both hands for the same attack: "You end your charge in a devastating two-handed attack." It's not somethign applicably to any other limb.
Nothing there says the limitation only applies if you take it as a monk bonus feat. It just says you can do that.
You should prob quote the whole sentence there. That restriction only applies if you take the feat as a monk bonus feat.It doesn't say that. The two sentence are seperate, and the second one doesn't reference bonus feats. And yes, RAW, Monks cannot use from the feats with a weapon.
I believe the restrictions shouldn't apply since it's only mentioned in the paragraph that explains the exception for taking the feat as a bonus feat. In my opinion that becomes clearer from the Wings of the Androsphinx feat text, where the effect of the feat isn't changed for monks.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Reposition, base attack bonus +1 or monk level 1st.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to AC against charge attacks. If a creature charges you and fails its attack roll, as an immediate action you can attempt a reposition combat maneuver (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 322) to reposition that foe. If you use a readied action to attack a creature charging you, you can roll to attack and then attempt to reposition that creature as a free action before it resolves its charge attack.
Note: A monk can take this feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. To benefit from this feat, monks must have both hands free and be capable of delivering an unarmed strike.
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If it actually was meant for Monks to never be able to use those two feats without their two hands free, that would have been written in the "Special" paragraph.
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I haven't seen any such flavor textWell, there's a reason I usually look up such things in the actual books rather than some site.
It can definitely help. For some reason both AoN and SRD have forgotten to explain that the Twinned Eidolon evolutions can only be taken if you are playing a Twinned Summoner, so there's always someone coming up with illegal "Share Evolution" shenanigans with the Figment familiar. But after a while, the books just becomes outdated after the fifth errata.
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I would definitely argue that other attacks with my body shouldn't be much different.By that logic, everything that applies to unarmed strikes should apply to natural attacks.
It's a special technique based on using both hands for the same attack: "You end your charge in a devastating two-handed attack." It's not somethign applicably to any other limb.
With weapons that makes sense, but wielding your own fist with two hands is just nonsensical. Natural Attacks does at least have rules for dealing 1.5x Str, while Unarmed Strikes does not.
But yeah, RAI is "two-handed weapons or unarmed strikes".
If it actually was meant for Monks to never be able to use those two feats without their two hands free, that would have been written in the "Special" paragraph.
That Monks can select them as bonus feats should be in the special sections as well - that's the way other, similar feats do that (Improved Ki Throw, Ki Throw, Binding Throw, Hamatulatsu, Ki Diversity, and Sensory Control).
wielding your own fist with two hands is just nonsensical.
YOu don't wield your hands, you basically make one big fist (one hand encloses the other hand's fist. Does it make sense? No, but it is occasionally used in fiction, most prominently in Star Trek. There's even a Style Strike that does the same (Hammerblow)!
wielding your own fist with two hands is just nonsensical.YOu don't wield your hands, you basically make one big fist (one hand encloses the other hand's fist. Does it make sense? No, but it is occasionally used in fiction, most prominently in Star Trek. There's even a Style Strike that does the same (Hammerblow)!
Pft, yeah I finally understood why you need both hands free for the feat thanks to Lelomenia's link.
I figured the feat taught monks how to throw their weight around when charging, but it's literally just unlocking the sacred knowledge of making a tennis-grip.
Gang, its all good. If Horn of the Cryosphinx doesn't work, I'll find other things to use haha.
Legit tho, thanks for all the help!
Also decided to go into Dragon Disciple after Shifter.Flavour wise, it looks fun, the bonuses to strength and AC sound tight, and it fits the theme of my character.
Thinking of going DD via Bloodrager, unless there's a better choice?
Depends on what you want, and on the campaign. For melee prowess, Bloodrager into DD is fine, but it's pretty light on the casting/utility side. Mechanically, it'd probably be best to dip into a full spellcasting class (Shaman, probably) at 5th level and then go right into DD at 6th level. With Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster, you get 3rd level spells (i.e. Fly) at 9th level, while the Bloodrage route would have to wait until 16th level to get off the ground. While Shaman's isn't exactly the best spell list (shame you can't be a Sorc DD with empyreal bloodline), there's still plenty of goodies there. Adding more damage to a pounce is easier (e.g. with Demonic Style) than making sure you can pounce in the first place.
We already have other spellcasters, and not a whole lot of melee heavy characters. Melee prowess is kinda what I need, which I why I'm leaning more toward Bloodrager.
I haven't had a proper look at the archetypes yet, but Bloodrager in general seems like the better option.
Especially since Shaman won't stack with DD to advance my bloodline. Bloodrager will.
Also stat wise, I rolled 12, 14, 14, 18, 18, 18
And as an Aasimar, get a +2 to wis and cha
So stats are
Str - 18
Dex - 14
Con - 18
Int - 14
Wis - 14
Cha - 20
But I'm considering swapping wis and cha so I can get some of those wild shape feats that need 19 Wis (Mutated Shape, etc)
Disclaimer: It's your character, you can play what you want - please don't misunderstand my posts as trying to force something upon you, I only want to help you make an informed decision. As I said before, your campaign effects what's good to take and what not. For instance, if you are almost exclusively fighting non-flying enemies with little magical abilities in non-difficult terrain, the demands for the character are vastly different than when you're habitually fighting enemies that fly, are invisible/displaced, located in swamps or up lodges, etc. Also, the GM's style is important - if you are often surprised by combat, you won't benefit from being able to cast spells.
Also, I totally forgot that Dragon Desciple needs to spontaneously cast, so Shaman is out anyway. That said, with crazy ability scores like that, you could totally dip into Sorcerer and get access to the best spell list in the game! Oracle would also be possible, Divine Favor/Divine Power are pretty powerful if you take the Magical Knack trait.
We already have other spellcasters, and not a whole lot of melee heavy characters. Melee prowess is kinda what I need, which I why I'm leaning more toward Bloodrager.
The thing is that you have melee prowess anyway (presuming you chose deinonychus). You have 5+ primary natural attacks, pounce, and even a strength bonus from DD. You can also get significant bonuses from spells.
Especially since Shaman won't stack with DD to advance my bloodline. Bloodrager will.
Even with e.g. Oracle, you'd gain most bloodline powers earlier because you'd get to benefit from the DD early access more, but for Sorcerer, the effect is even slightly more pronounced. Being a level behind on Draconic Resistance is pretty meaningless when you can cast Resist Energy and get earlier access to the DD's NA bonus.
Shifter 4/Bloodrager4/DD:
Claws@5, Draconic Resistance@8, Breath Weapon@11 (2nd use@12), Dragon Wings@16, Dragon Form@15.
Shifter4/Oracle1/DD:
Claws@6, Draconic Resistance@8, Breath Weapon@8 (2nd use@14), Wings@14, Dragon Form@12.
Shifter4/Sorcerer1/DD:
Claws@5, Draconic Resistance@7, Breath Weapon@8 (2nd use@13), Wings@14, Dragon Form@12.
I haven't had a proper look at the archetypes yet, but Bloodrager in general seems like the better option.
The thing that bothers me is that you don't gain much from the Bloodrager levels (apart from rage, obviously). You could actually dip into Bloodrager*, take Extra Rage as a feat, and then go into Sorcerer and DD - you'd still get most bloodline powers earlier than with four levels in Bloodrager.
*) Or Barbarian, especially Savage Technologist - the bloodline levels aren't really worth much.
But I'm considering swapping wis and cha so I can get some of those wild shape feats that need 19 Wis (Mutated Shape, etc)
Mutated Shape is certainly very powerful. Bloodrager gains pretty little from charisma, and even the Sorc path would work with 14 Cha (you won't cast spells with a DC anyway).
Another feat to look at is Chaos Reigns - there's no rule that says you can't make two natural attack with the same body part (punch/claw isn't much of a stretch anyway, and there are stat blocks where two natural attacks are attatched to the head). Two levels in Barbarian could grant a gore attack if you think you need that 8th attack.
No no, I wasn't assuming you were forcing anything.
Honestly, thanks heaps for all the help.
My main beef with Sorc is that they're kinda squishy. I was going Bloodrager for something less so.
Probs gonna swap wis and cha tho if I only really need 14 cha
I also forgot to mention the campaign we're doing!
Skulls and Shackles.
Should be a good time.
My main beef with Sorc is that they're kinda squishy. I was going Bloodrager for something less so.
You aren't a Sorcerer, you're a martial character with a single level in Sorcerer. You have four levels in a d10 class, one level in a d6 class, and then the rest in a d12 class. On average, your HP is identical to a straigth d10 class at 7th level, and greater afterwards.
Sorcerer would lose being able to wear armor, but Mage Armor + Defensive Instinct helps - with 14dex/20wis/14cha, that's +11 AC, while the Bloodrager multiclass wearing a stoneplate would have +12 AC.Probs gonna swap wis and cha tho if I only really need 14 cha
You lose: Breath Weapon DC (which will be fairly low anyway because of the Shifter levels), Spell DCs (dito, and only relevant for Sorc), and bonus spells per day (one fewer 1st, 3rd, and 4th, and 5th level spell), plus of course -3 on charisma based skill checks. You gain: +3 Will, +3 hours of wild shape per day, +1 AC while wearing armor, +3 AC while not wearing armor, access to Mutated Shape, and of course +3 to wisdom based skill checks, including perception. For the Sorcerer route, you'd need to get wisdom headbands to cast the higher spells (presuming you take Prestigious Spellcaster for the lost caster levels, +2 belt at character level 14, +4 belt at level 18).
I mean, the benefits of taking higher wis seem to outweigh the benefits of taking high cha. I can easily make do with 14 cha.
So the difference in AC is literally 1. Oh damn, didn't even realise.
So if anyone is still following this, I'm definitely taking Sorcerer.
So it'll be Weretouched Shifter 4/ Sorcerer 1/ then DD
Only thing I'm considering though, is if its actually worth having the claws and bite from DD/Draconic bloodline if I'm getting claws and a bite from Shifter.
So the question is, are there any other bloodlines or archetypes worth dipping into that would support Weretouched Shifter or DD?
Apparently Sylvan is a good time but I'm not super sure it's worth it