Multiclass Dedication Feat Pretequisite

[Blake's Tiger]

Probably too late for meaningful discussion and input...

But the multiclass statistic (multiclass key stat = 16) requirement seems pretty steep. A gradually increasing prerequisite would have made it more accessible and give us more personalization on our builds.

Example:

Key stat = 10+feat level (12 for first dedication, 14 for the next feats, 16, 18, etc).
Key stat = 12+feat level (14 for first dedication, 18, 20, etc).

I mean... you don't even need 14 key stat in your main class to be your main class.

If I want to be a "magus" as soon as possible, I need to start as a fighter and put my free boost from background and generic boosts in Intelligence and be a race that boosts Intelligence, all so I can cast two cantrips at half level by 2nd level.

[PossibleCabbage]

A human, an elf, a goblin, or a halfling can just start with a 18/16 in Int/Dex at level 1 as a fighter or wizard. Anybody without a penalty can start with a 16 in any stat they don't have a penalty in at level 1, and anybody can have a 16 in any stat by level 5, at which point you can retrain an earlier feat.

I think it's appropriate that the requirement is steeper for "a vocation you're picking up as you are adventuring" than "what you received training in."

[Honeybee]

Yeah, we wouldn't want peoples' character concepts to evolve as they go through the campaign or anything unfun like that. Have your 1-20 build ready at character creation, and for God's sake, don't experience any character growth.

[dmerceless]

In my opinion, it should be 14, not 16. In fact, I have already houseruled that. 16 forces you to have a optimized character if you want to multiclass before level 5, and forced optimization is something that Paizo already recognized as a problem in the Playtest.

Also, as Honeybee pointed out, sometimes your character experiences some kind of change during the course of the campaign and you want to tak a dedicatiom to represent that. With a 16 requirement, you should basically give up doing this if it wasn't planned beforehand and you didn't have at least a 14 stat before. With a 14, requirement, you could easily bump one stat that your character is "slightly above average" (12) and pick up a dedication after the next ASI.

[Blake's Tiger]

You can have 18/16 with the right race, but it costs every other stat.

...and retraining isn't available in every campaign.

And if I don't want to tank my stats, should I really need to wait until level 6 to make a "magus" (fighter/wizard) who can cast 2 cantrips? It's even harder if you want to play a MAD class with a smidge of multiclassing.

I can be a wizard with an Intelligence of 12 but in order to pick up a couple divine cantrips, I need a Wisdom of 16, while my cleric buddy has 5 cantrips, full spellcasting, and domain abilities with a Wisdom of 14.

Now, I like the simple design of multiclassing through feats, and I agree you shouldn't be able to multiclass wizard with an Intelligence of 8, but the key stat = 16 prerequisites pigeon hole you into specific builds even if you just want to dabble.

[PossibleCabbage]

Blake's Tiger wrote:

...and retraining isn't available in every campaign.

It's part of the core rules now, it occupies the same mechanical space as "working a job" or "crafting", or "gathering information".

Sure, I can imagine a campaign with no downtime whatsoever, but those are going to be outliers. Sure, a GM could say "no retraining" but that's in the same space of GM prerogative now as "no elves" or "no fireballs".

[Blake's Tiger]

I suppose they do need to leave themselves room to publish mechanically advantageous mixed classes (e.g. magus, brawler, bloodrager) in future supplements... but that will leave the key stat = 16 requirement that much more painful.

The martial dedication feats also seem to give more for the feat, but I may be underestimating half-power cantrips.

As to the argument that "it's harder to learn a new class" (that's some old school 1st ed. D&D), that seems to already be represented by the fact that you only gain a smidgen of the adopted classes ability.

[Siro]

Blake's Tiger wrote:

The martial dedication feats also seem to give more for the feat, but I may be underestimating half-power cantrips.

As to the argument that "it's harder to learn a new class" (that's some old school 1st ed. D&D), that seems to already be represented by the fact that you only gain a smidgen of the adopted classes ability.

I think its more that your doing some training in another class while still keeping up with your original class. Which is kinda {in my most likely substandard opinion} the reason why you only gain partial abilities, as your giving up class feats {which is still a high cost} but your still gaining the key abilities of that base class. For example, a Rogue who say, uses all there class feats for a Wizard Dedication and spell casting will gain a lesser ability to cast spells {much more then a Rogue that did not dedicate themselves to a spell casting class, but less then a Wizard} at the cost of not having any Rogue feats. However, in spite of not having any Rogue feats, they still gain skill increases, skill feats, sneak attacks and other base abilities at a same rate of a Rogue whom did not multiclass. {to sum up, I think the power is being balanced against you sacrificing class feats, not the progression in the class itself.}

And, while there not going to ever steal the show, cantrips can be useful, depending at what they are being used for, and the class itself. For example, I've played a Monk whom took the Druid dedication feat {in a homebrewed 3-shot}, and used the ranged cantrips to have a ranged attack {two actions were not ideal, but it helped the monks lack of range, along with having a 'ranged weapon' without gold cost, and could occasionally take advantage of elemental weaknesses.) Mind you this was Level 5, so it may not be so useful at higher levels.

[PossibleCabbage]

Blake's Tiger wrote:

The martial dedication feats also seem to give more for the feat, but I may be underestimating half-power cantrips.

Well, for one thing they aren't half-power, they're about a level behind. A 10th level fighter who has electric arc from the druid dedication casts it as a 5th level spell, just like a 10th level druid would. A basic druid can cast electric arc as a 5th level spell, however, as soon as they get 5th level spells... which is 9th level.

[Blake's Tiger]

Ah, I see. Spell level not caster level.

Still, electric arc for 2 actions at 1d6+3 (current prereq) up to 2d6+3 at 10th level and either a different element or detect magic, compared with:

Rogue: Trained in Light Armor, rogue's suprise attack
Fighter: Trained in next tier of armor, Trained in Martial Weapons, Attack of Opportunity 1/day
Paladin: Trained in favored weapon, trained in all armor and shields, retributive strike 1/day, and a code the feat actually tells you that you have no penalty for breaking

When a magic composite bow, which you'll have by 10th level, will do 2d8+(STR/2) with a greater range and fewer actions (up to 3 attacks/round or move, shoot, move).

So, I suppose the lesson is that if you want to be a gish, be a Sorcerer and take the Paladin dedication feat.

[Edge93]

To be fair, Electric Arc can hit 2 targets and does some damage in a failed save, while a bow doesn't do squat on a missed shot.

Also you can wield another weapon while still using Electric Arc as you please, not so with a bow.

And heck, Electric Arc can even work with a bow. I'd call Shot+Electric Arc MUCH more useful than Shot+-5Shot+-10Shot in most cases.

Obviously you won't always be spending all your actions attacking, but IME archers do so much more often than other units, and we are comparing to a magic bow here.

And heck, if you're hasted you can do the above routine and still have a free action.

Moral of the story, Electric Arc not interacting with MAP is exploitable, whether it should be or not is questionable.