Why is it basically CR20? Look at it's statistics and compare it to a CR20.why is a vehicle a CR 20 encounter? It's a level 20 item. This is like saying let's have a fight between a 20th level Soldier and a paragon maul. So no, it shouldn't be up to the challenge of a actual CR 20 monster, it's only detailing that it is an appropriate item for a level 20 character to have. I mean, imagine the bragging rights of bringing that thing to a fight!
But if we just have to have it be a CR 20 encounter for some reason, it may take the soldier more than 4-5 rounds since they also have to deal with its 60+ crew and 1000 passengers who probably aren't too keen on him shooting up their ride.
yeah, it'd get killed by anything with an avg. damage over it's 20 hardness, as it's not a CR20, it's a level 20 item. It lacks to hit bonuses, Initiative, saves, skills, etc...making an equivalent argument based on its level fails at go. I mean, are people running adventures where the PCs fight a parking lot full of enercycles? Is this a Street Fighter bonus round campaign?
I'm just saying that comparing it's stats to an actual CR20 monster doesn't make a lot of sense, since they occupy two completely different roles in-game.
Its saves are equal to it's level. If it's KAC/EAC, hitpoints, damage dice, and saves are almost identical to other CR20s doesn't resemble a CR20 to you, that's fine. Believe whatever you want to believe.
The rules for the carrier are more of an abstraction than usual. Especially since it is PC equipment.
It's just a little weird that PCs can just buy a marvel helicarrier at level 20 or so. It's also weird that if the PCs were infiltrating an 800ft long flying fortress as part of an adventure, it's walls would have hardness and hit points per 10 ft section.
Just like the endbringer devil. It's a decepticon from hell, but it's starship form is hardness 35 and 2400 hit points per 10 foot section. Why would it ever turn into it's monster form where a group of four schmucks with holy machine guns can kill it?
As a note I do not like how they did the hovercarrier, and I do not like how the endbringer devil is described as working, but I understand the reason.
The rules for the carrier are more of an abstraction than usual. Especially since it is PC equipment.
It's just a little weird that PCs can just buy a marvel helicarrier at level 20 or so. It's also weird that if the PCs were infiltrating an 800ft long flying fortress as part of an adventure, it's walls would have hardness and hit points per 10 ft section.
Just like the endbringer devil. It's a decepticon from hell, but it's starship form is hardness 35 and 2400 hit points per 10 foot section. Why would it ever turn into it's monster form where a group of four schmucks with holy machine guns can kill it?
As a note I do not like how they did the hovercarrier, and I do not like how the endbringer devil is described as working, but I understand the reason.
They do have rules for massive vehicles being treated as terrain, I believe it's page 272. When boarded, a vehicle gets treated as terrain, if big enough.
Endbringer from starship to creature form is just gameplay mechanics. It's the same monster in either form. It doesn't power up or get weaker, it just has a different set of statistics. If you don't like it, it's just a byproduct of splitting the two combat systems, it's to be expected.
Its saves are equal to it's level. If it's KAC/EAC, hitpoints, damage dice, and saves are almost identical to other CR20s doesn't resemble a CR20 to you, that's fine. Believe whatever you want to believe.
yes it has some stats similar, but it's just an object, not a CR20 monster. It poses no danger on its own, that's my point, and that's why you can't compare it to an actual monster. Again, it's like saying a Paragon Maul (a level 20 advanced melee weapon) should be the same threat level as the Endbringer or other CR20 monsters. Equipment level doesn't compare to Creature level.
I just don't see the value in comparing it to a monster as if that should prove anything about how quickly a character can demolish it.
Its saves are equal to it's level. If it's KAC/EAC, hitpoints, damage dice, and saves are almost identical to other CR20s doesn't resemble a CR20 to you, that's fine. Believe whatever you want to believe.yes it has some stats similar, but it's just an object, not a CR20 monster. It poses no danger on its own, that's my point, and that's why you can't compare it to an actual monster. Again, it's like saying a Paragon Maul (a level 20 advanced melee weapon) should be the same threat level as the Endbringer or other CR20 monsters. Equipment level doesn't compare to Creature level.
I just don't see the value in comparing it to a monster as if that should prove anything about how quickly a character can demolish it.
The point is that it's not a bug that a group of level 20s can easily destroy the hovercarrier. I made two examples, four Kyokors vs one Kyokor, or four hovercarriers vs one hovercarrier (same crew and everything). Is there really something wrong with this example? This was about just destroying them based off their defensive statistics, no crew involved, originally, because their defensive stats are apparently too low. That's what started this discussion.
I just don't see the value in comparing it to a monster as if that should prove anything about how quickly a character can demolish it.
Because if it's crewed and mobile, it looks a lot like a monster with CR=item level.
Thinking about the carrier though. What happens when it's reduced to 0? It says a wrecked vehicle can't be piloted and may be difficult or impossible to repair. So, really all you did in those four rounds was disable a flying building, which then crashes, takes falling damage, and it's crew, hull and maybe weapons are still somewhat intact. Seems about right for level 20 superhero PCs vs a shield helicarrier.
A waste of four million credits for PCs, only the start of the encounter for the GM.
Based on the cost I'm seeing vehicles look more and more like starships in that the PCs acquire them based on plot, they don't actually want to buy them. Maybe a level-8 vehicle to make travel a bit easier, maybe some hovertanks for a bit of ablative hit points when they're level 20, but that's about it.