| Joey Cote |
I cannot understand why casting a high level polymorph spell only brings you up to the base combat ability of a typical combat character, if that character lacks any combat feats. Many don't give special attacks or abilities, other then some movement effects. Adding in that you loose the ability to activate magic items, command animal companions, and cast spells just makes that brutal.
| Edge93 |
I mean, from what I've seen most of them put you just a touch above average joe. They seem to put you near fighter accuracy and with respectable damage. And do we really want them to make you better statted than the Fighter? I'm pretty sure casters doing a martial's job better with magic was one of the biggest complaints with PF1. XD
I do think that going from potentially a very suboptimal combatant to a solid fighter is awesome.
Like the Druid in my part 7 party, he has 14 Str, 18 Dex, and no up-to-date magic weapon or other combat support. Polymorph spells are a huge bump up over his cantrip combat and even more over what he would do even with weapons (Even with a +4 weapon he wouldn't be great).
| Malk_Content |
I don't mind the lack of special abilities. I mind that at level 17 turning into a dragon whose breath weapon is avoided by on level enemies on a 4, whose AC drops such that they can be critted easily and that damage is WORSE than turning into a dinosaur even though they invested two more feats for the privilege. This is partly a problem of specific heighten levels. They shouldn't get better or equal to a fighters raw combat ability but they shouldn't get weaker than they already were.
| Malk_Content |
Okay yeah, the DC on the breath weapon sucks. Forgot about that. The math just feels off there. And I didn't look too closely at the errata'd Dragon Form AC but I thought it got fixed to be appropriate for its level? Was it still too low?
It would have been appropriate for when he could first heighten it. The problem is that is a strong as it gets, which meant he was (as a non-optimised armour wise character) losing 2AC and 4TAC and if he wanted to keep using his build defining feature as that character leveled the distance would only grow (6 and 8 at level 20 for example.) This is mostly an issue because the Form lacks a Heightened 9 entry but for something he has spend over half his class feats on, his class path
and that any druid could actually just blow a spell slot on if they preferred I'd expect more than "he arguably doesn't get worse."| Edge93 |
Ahh, gotcha. Yeah, I'd like to see the form heightens go further so certain forms don't become obsolete. But of course then we run the risk of making it so that it's more optimal to be a bear than a dragon if we aren't careful. XD
I'd like to at least see Druid's Vestments work for any polymorph, not just Wild Shape.
| Malk_Content |
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Ahh, gotcha. Yeah, I'd like to see the form heightens go further so certain forms don't become obsolete. But of course then we run the risk of making it so that it's more optimal to be a bear than a dragon if we aren't careful. XD
I'd like to at least see Druid's Vestments work for any polymorph, not just Wild Shape.
I think it can be achievable if they think about the niches the spells should provide.
For me it would be something like, Animal is best (if heightened to the same levels) for raw single target damage. If you start your turn next to a Bear Form you should be in for a world of hurt through natural attacks. Dinosaurs get to be the form of choice for tanking, getting more Natural HP and decent armour. Dragons have an AoE attack, energy weakness targetting/defensive resistance choice and a 120ft Fly speed is actually amazing. Monster I'm having trouble thinking about a niche for.
| Edge93 |
Monster could be the jack-of-all maybe, with also using it as the opportunity to bring out big cool monstrous abilities. Spine Rake is already a really good one IMO, and even works on land, but the other two forms could use something comparable.
Actually that status effect shrugoff the Purple Worm has is pretty dang sweet too. It's just Phoenix that feels a little weak. Too bad, I like Phoenixes.