This was a great chance, since you redesigned and gave a pass to so many alchemical consumables to fix some of the glaring issues of the Alchemist class.
you literally did nothing of the sort (well, you did 1 major nerf for some unspeakable reason).
To start:
GET RID OF THE +ITEM BONUS TO SAVING THROWS
I hope that this was enough emphasis on the issue.
Literally every single elixir is +item bonus. And in some cases, it might be slightly helpful, like, you don't need to get an item to grant you this on a skill check. But saving throws is another deal.
because:
BY DESIGN WE ALREADY HAVE +ITEM BONUS TO AAAAAALLLLLLLL SAVING THROWS
what do i care for a "+2 item bonus to saving throws vs diseases" at friggin level 10, when i already have like +3 to ALL saves already from my must have armor?
Or, you may see that juicy +4 bonus (as literally the only thing the item does). And then you notice that, it really is just a +1 bonus.
If I wanted a +1 bonus, i wouldn't be using a 10th level item really. I would be using a frigging CANTRIP.
To continue:
Great job at gutting to oblivion one of the very few actually good elixirs in the entire list. Mistform elixir is now "use focus or bust". I call bull on that.
Was it powerful? Sure. Make it 4 rounds. But straight up 1 round duration? With 2 actions to actually use it? (1 interact to draw, 1 interact to drink). That's Cantrip level of power right there "spend all your round for a bit miss chance for that round only" seems about right FOR A CANTRIP.
Furthermore:
Mutagens still have that nice level 6 feat tax to be even usable in combat.
To add a bit of insult to there, let's make them the ONLY consumable without added Focus benefits. That'll show them nasty overpowered Alchemists what's what.
Nicely done.
Furthermore:
Healing elixirs are still exactly 50% as effective as Heal. I mean, I get it. We can make 2 for 1 point. So, let's make it half the value. Except, there's this little thing called: Action economy. And this little other thing called: We don't get "free" casts of them with powers or anything, they are exactly as valuable as spell slots to us.
Really, really disappointed.
And more importantly, not a WHISPER of why is that.
Are we on this forum, on reddit, on literally every other source so wrong when we see Alchemist as a DEAD CLASS atm?
Why exactly is 1d6 50% as effective as 1d8 (referring to elixirs vs. potions)? Or 3d6 half as effective as 2d8+4?
sorry, should have said "compared to Heal" because that's what I compare it with.
one class feature (elixirs of life) vs another class feature (Heal)
so, 3d6 (10.5) at level 4, vs 3d8+5 (18.5) at level 3 and 5d8+5 at level5 (27.5)
10,5 is below the middle point of Heal which is about 23 points at an "equivalent level 4"
so, Heal heals double. At range, can be made aoe.
Just the 6 extra Heals at level 5 are worth WAY MORE than 6/9 of the "daily ingredients" of an Alchemist.
That's 3/9 of your ingredients (less actually) left to compete with:
Spells
Powers
Cantrips
Better martial proficiencies
edit: oh wow, forgot that heal was 3+Cha, and not straight up Cha.
That means, that a cleric with just 14 starting Cha has the equivalent of, let's say about, 7/9 daily reagents of the Alchemist just from that feature alone.
Why exactly is 1d6 50% as effective as 1d8 (referring to elixirs vs. potions)? Or 3d6 half as effective as 2d8+4?
sorry, should have said "compared to Heal" because that's what I compare it with.
one class feature (elixirs of life) vs another class feature (Heal)
so, 3d6 (10.5) at level 4, vs 3d8+4 (17.5) at level 3 and 5d8+4 at level5 (26.5)
10,5 is just bellow the middle point of Heal which is about 22 points at an "equivalent level 4"
so, Heal heals double. At range, can be made aoe.
Just the 4 extra Heals at level 5 are worth WAY MORE than 4/9 of the "daily ingredients" of an Alchemist.
That's 5/9 of your ingredients (less actually) left to compete with:
Spells
Powers
Cantrips
Better martial proficiencies
This is a much fairer point and one that I would agree with. This along with the lack of a cantrip-equivalent does make the alchemist...not very good. It hurts even more that their class feats are all tied to these very limited resources.
Edit: In fact, most alchemist bombs (except the acid bomb which I think is pretty dope) are roughly equivalent to a number of cantrips. I don't feel like the AoE makes up for it quickly enough, especially when competing with something like fireball.
A lot of this I think is fair, but I wouldn't say almost nothing was done. I think the move away from resonance (or focus) for crafting is a big boost, but that really just speaks to how far the Alchemist needed to be boosted initially, as all this did was put their baseline chassis on par with other characters (at least in a vacuum, ignoring the weakness of alchemical items in general). A number of the issues, I think could be solved by moving away from bonus types, as others have suggested, and implement a "3 best sources of bonus/3 worst sources of penalties" system and maybe even having some of the always-on boosts, like weapon and armor potency, not count as a bonus under this schema, but that still doesn't cover the fact that, as mentioned, a lot of these items still feel like cantrip level benefits. Maybe the best solution for that would be that invested alchemical items act as if the user spent focus, but even so, I'm not convinced that's entirely enough.
Just to confirm. you're referring to today's blog post right?
I adore Alchemists and want this ones to be best but.
I need to point out that today's blog post is not an "update" its announcement of testing a very specific change. It is not made to alter anything in the main playtest. This is specific to test something specific.
So.. they wouldn't alter any of the Alchemist' main portions outside of what is effected by the specific alteration. Because, you really can't test multiple unrelated changes while having significant information from either really.
They altered the Alch purely to work with the new Focus type-and that PreGen Goblin--note they didn't cover what occured at lv 9 instead of the res boost they normally get.
They're only testing the concept of Focus. They stated it in the playtest and in the post. If/when they find the Focus type they like. They'll have to update all the classes fully and feats as well.
I suspect during that time Alchemists will actually receive some sort of change.
Alchy's in specific are the class with the most awkward situation with regards to Errata --because they were built with so much of the core built rules around them (which causes lots of issues). Honestly I suspect they have a V 2 of them around already and updating for Focus in the background and the first form of Alch was mostly for testing Alchemical Items.
I really hope the Alch ends up great, but I wasn't expecting an actual update from this once the post specific it was a encapsulated playtest of its own. I will fully expect one when the Focus playtest ends and they adapt whatever it is they like from it.
As a sidenote concerning the cantrips equivalent. I've said it in a few places now.. but they really need
Alchemical Substance:
Unlimited times per day, but only up to INT iterations at once.
Can be used as a bomb (scaling like a cantrip), a poison, a mutagen 'lite'(gives temp hp rather than stats). can be used like that for 1d4 +INT poison damage, with some sort of scaling (probably sneak attack like)
Class Feat to gain a different damage type. but poison for base for its "niche"
Can be applied to other bombs to add for effect (i.e. acid flask+applied substance = 1d4 Pers,+splash +1d4 poison+Int splash. for an effective 1d4 Pers 1d4 poison +int splash)
Or you could apply the mutagin lite version to elixir or mutagins to make a combined bonus. Elixer of life +substance - 1d6 healing +some amount of temp HP.
1 action to make (and apply if one was applying) and 1 action to use.
i.e. 1action to make the Substance bomb, 1 action to throw.
or. 1 action to draw a Bottled Lightning, 1 action to make+apply the substance to said BLight, 1 action to throw it.
1 action to create the poison version+apply it to a weapon, normal actions to use said weapon.
1 action to make the Mutagin lite (and apply it if one wanted) +1 action to consume it (or the item as per normal for said item)
A consideration would be if anyone else coudl benefit from the substance or not. Idk. I default with only the alchemist benefiting and it being poison for anyone else trying to eat it. This would help secure the niche and just makes the most fluff sense. (plus that means no handing out Temp HP candy to the party-just themselves)
As I said, up to INT iterations at any given time. Meaning, an alchemist with +5 Int, could poison two blades, make 1 super mutagin, and make 1 substance bomb + one Alch Fire+Substance combo bomb. They'd be maxed substances, and could not make another without a previous one being disabled. Or, once they used any they could spend an action to create another. (alternatively a melee/mutagine one could just have 5 iterations of temp HP powered elixier/mutagins, and keeps "topping off" his temp hp when he loses it)
This Alchemical substance would sure up so many of the Alchemist's current issues. They would have a very Alchemist ability, makes for more consistant damage, allows for alchemists to be the off martial off support they're painted to be in this edition.
Fact is bombs are too inconsistant and not damage enough, nor do you get enough. Making one empowered bomb per round to toss out doing normal empowered/lv bomb + scaled substance would make that one single bomb fairly worthwhile. WHILE leaving actions open for tactical movement, or support effects-buffs, debuffs, etc.
it would also allow a suite of Alchemist Feats in what is right now, a very sad list of worth while feats.
Plus as it stands the alchemist can't even use poisons very well.
oh. and random additions they need.
Quick Draw Alchemical Item. uses the Reaction action to draw an alchemical item--Alchemist currently have 0 uses for their reaction ability--when as far as I can tell almost every other class does. This would make them undisputed Item User, while not getting out of hand.
It would also secure their main damage combo while still affording an action to move or intimidate/bluff or draw an extra bomb or attack with a weapon.
Just to confirm. you're referring to today's blog post right?
I adore Alchemists and want this ones to be best but.
I need to point out that today's blog post is not an "update" its announcement of testing a very specific change. It is not made to alter anything in the main playtest. This is specific to test something specific.
So.. they wouldn't alter any of the Alchemist' main portions outside of what is effected by the specific alteration. Because, you really can't test multiple unrelated changes while having significant information from either really.
They altered the Alch purely to work with the new Focus type-and that PreGen Goblin--note they didn't cover what occured at lv 9 instead of the res boost they normally get.
They're only testing the concept of Focus. They stated it in the playtest and in the post. If/when they find the Focus type they like. They'll have to update all the classes fully and feats as well.
I suspect during that time Alchemists will actually receive some sort of change.
Alchy's in specific are the class with the most awkward situation with regards to Errata --because they were built with so much of the core built rules around them (which causes lots of issues). Honestly I suspect they have a V 2 of them around already and updating for Focus in the background and the first form of Alch was mostly for testing Alchemical Items.
I really hope the Alch ends up great, but I wasn't expecting an actual update from this once the post specific it was a encapsulated playtest of its own. I will fully expect one when the Focus playtest ends and they adapt whatever it is they like from it.
This is particularly insightful, Zwordsman. We actually had an open question of whether to try to include any non-focus-mandatory alchemist changes since we already had to make the focus-mandatory changes and decided against it because it would muddle the two too much (for instance, if focus doesn't work well but people love the other ideas, that could drown out focus, or if focus works great but people dislike the other ideas, vice versa). Except there is a small hint in there of one change if you look carefully at the listed items.
So bombs in the resonance test now have higher level effects. That means anyone who finds or makes that bomb can use it. However with the Empower Bomb, you'll notice that when you make a level 1 bomb and empower it, it is the same as a higher level bomb, you just have access to the damage 1 level before. An empowered bomb to 3rd level does the same damage as a 4th level bomb, but you get it a level earlier.
I mean, how can one playtest if "alchemist's fire" is worth the focus cost, if as an example, the change is to be able to chuck them at will.
because if they are at will, then great, they are in a good spot.
if they are just 4-5 bombs/day and that's all, then they are terrible.
* Alchemical items, including bombs, can be made ahead of time, in batches of 4, for 2x the cost of buying 1 at the market.
* A 5th level character w/ 18 Int will get 9 batches of infused reagents per day. Advanced Alchemy lets him, at the start of the day, convert 1 batch of infused reagents into 2 of any one alchemical item (that you have the formula for). Thus, he could make, if nothing else, 18 bombs for the day.
* He may use focus to extend the Splash damage of Alchemist's Fire by 5', but it is not necessary. He still gets Xd8 Fire Damage and X persistent fire damage and 1 splash w/o spending focus.
* Alchemical Items =/= Cantrips. Cantrips cannot be manufactured and handed out to other people to use whenever they feel like it.
I mean, how can one playtest if "alchemist's fire" is worth the focus cost, if as an example, the change is to be able to chuck them at will.
because if they are at will, then great, they are in a good spot.
if they are just 4-5 bombs/day and that's all, then they are terrible.
* Alchemical items, including bombs, can be made ahead of time, in batches of 4, for 2x the cost of buying 1 at the market.
* A 5th level character w/ 18 Int will get 9 batches of infused reagents per day. Advanced Alchemy lets him, at the start of the day, convert 1 batch of infused reagents into 2 of any one alchemical item (that you have the formula for). Thus, he could make, if nothing else, 18 bombs for the day.
* He may use focus to extend the Splash damage of Alchemist's Fire by 5', but it is not necessary. He still gets Xd8 Fire Damage and X persistent fire damage and 1 splash w/o spending focus.
* Alchemical Items =/= Cantrips. Cantrips cannot be manufactured and handed out to other people to use whenever they feel like it.
really? woooow
ofc i know all that, i've played alchemist in various builds across the levels (unlike you who probably never even seen an alchemist in play in this edition).
they are way, way , way ineeficient.
for startrers:
"made in batches of 4 for GP" well, that's something everybody can do.
furthermore, in this test, it's 100% the same if made by an alchemist or not. In fact, it's BETTER for a non-alchemist to use them, because you know, other people get expert+ in martial proficiency that bombs are, while alchemist gets 0 proficiency in them.
"empowered bombs" doesn't even exist in this playtest (there is 0 description of the feat in the premade)
furthermore, you have a total of 9 reagents/day in the test.
that's at most 18 items.
let's say 2 mutagens and 4 healing pots, that's 3 of your reagents down.
let's say another batch of utility elixirs thrown in.
you'r down to 5 reagents.
that 10 bombs/day.
those 10 bombs deal LESS damage than a swing from a +1 longsword each (because splash is not multiplied on a crit)
and then, you have NOTHING LEFT.
no martial proficency.
no cantrips.
nothing.
You basically have exactly 5-10 ROUNDS of damage/day.
Oof hey shroud let's take a deep breath and discuss this rationally without all the hate alright.
First let's talk about attack options for Fumbus. He has the bombs at a +9 vs TAC which is nice. He also has a couple of darts he could throw +9(1d4 piercing) but he also is wielding a +1 dogslicer +10(2d6+1 slashing) with backstabber.
So that's all his attack options and he's not limited to just bombs.
Oh and all alchemists are trained in Alchemical bombs. Though they don't increase in that proficiency which I would like at the least as a class feature option.
Fumbus does have empowered bombs it just doesn't list the feat out nor does he really need it since he is using the 4th level lesser bombs. So his Alchemical fire is 2d8 fire and 2 persistent damage plus, using calculated splash, 4 splash damage.
So on a critical that's 4d8 fire and 4 persistent damage plus 4 splash damage. I'd say that's on par with a +1longsword especially if that persistent keeps ticking.
So overall his bombs are pretty nice especially if your catching more than 1 enemy in the splash radius.
His other utility options are nice as well
Quicksilver is good for skill checks and a bonus to ranged attacks.
Eagle eye boosts perception and can help spot secret things (focus point for an hour).
Dark vision for Allies to stealth without light reveiling you.
Fumbus is a fantastic support for the team with the ability to disrupt the enemy with splash/persistent/flat-footed options.
Oof hey shroud let's take a deep breath and discuss this rationally without all the hate alright.
First let's talk about attack options for Fumbus. He has the bombs at a +9 vs TAC which is nice. He also has a couple of darts he could throw +9(1d4 piercing) but he also is wielding a +1 dogslicer +10(2d6+1 slashing) with backstabber.
So that's all his attack options and he's not limited to just bombs.
Oh and all alchemists are trained in Alchemical bombs. Though they don't increase in that proficiency which I would like at the least as a class feature option.
Fumbus does have empowered bombs it just doesn't list the feat out nor does he really need it since he is using the 4th level lesser bombs. So his Alchemical fire is 2d8 fire and 2 persistent damage plus, using calculated splash, 4 splash damage.
So on a critical that's 4d8 fire and 4 persistent damage plus 4 splash damage. I'd say that's on par with a +1longsword especially if that persistent keeps ticking.
So overall his bombs are pretty nice especially if your catching more than 1 enemy in the splash radius.
His other utility options are nice as well
Quicksilver is good for skill checks and a bonus to ranged attacks.
Eagle eye boosts perception and can help spot secret things (focus point for an hour).
Dark vision for Allies to stealth without light reveiling you.
Fumbus is a fantastic support for the team with the ability to disrupt the enemy with splash/persistent/flat-footed options.
Yes, compare him with ANY other character:
The dogslicer he's using, he has 0 things added to it.
there isn't a single feat that applies to it.
there isn't a single power to go with it
there isn't a single elixir that goes with it.
he's really LESS powerful with it compared to a WIZARD wielding a +1 dogslicer. Wizard at least has martial options and buffs that apply to it.
His bombs:
They deal EXACTLY as much as a +1 longsword BUT WITH DOUBLE THE ACTIONS. Why even make them consumables. They really should be AT WILL since they do exactly the same amount as a sword in a fighter's hands.
And then compare his utility.
To whom? To a bard? certainly not. To a cleric, not even by a mile. To a wizard? Hell no.
Basically:
he has nothing compared to any other character.
He has less powers/spells. 0 martial capabilities. The least amount of damage out of all characters. And his support is at the level of... monk? paladin? Nah, paladin can Heal much better than an Alchemist. So monk/fighter using maneuvers sounds about right.
He does have goblon frenzy so a critical with the dogslicer does make the target flat-footed for 1 round.
So I wouldn't say no feats to the dogslicer.
But ok let's compare him to Valero's since you want to compare his bombs to longswords.
Let's say they are each fighting something.
Fumbus draws 2 bombs and throws a lesser bottled lightning vs TAC and hits dealing 2d6+4(splash) he then throws a lesser Alchemical Fire vs TAC, with a -5, and flat-footed hits deals 2d8+4(splash) and 2 persistent. Let's say average damage, so a total 11 + 13 (24 damage plus persistent)
Valeros draws his weapon, sudden charges at his target and swings against AC hits for 2d8+4. The target strikes back and Valeros uses reactive shield to raise his shield and triggers the Lions shield free action to strike vs AC (since it's outside his turn no MAP) he'll also spend a focus point so he can attack with it everytime he raised his shield for 1 min. The shield hits for 2d6+4. Again average damage, it's a total 13 + 11 (24 damage)
Fumbus' Allies can no freely attack the target with the flat-footed he gave the enemy.
Valeros' Allies have no extra benefit other than Valeros' being in the enemies face so assuming the stick to range or shadows he will most likely stay the target.
This is without delving into average TAC and AC comparing full attacks against each. Nor are we looking at multiple fights or prolonged encounters. It's also looking at a reasonable first round for both parties without exploiting for additional numbers.
A second fight could drastically change numbers as Valeros' can only use the lion shield once per day and up to 1 min if spending a focus point.
Enemy weakness or resistance could also change the number since Fumbus could do more or less damage depending on his available bombs.
Also this is only looking at a single enemy since Fumbus' numbers increase depending on how many enemies he can catch in the splash radius.
Valeros already has his weapons out. Let's not kid ourselves.
Admitting that Fumbus might start with bombs out, he can't attack more, and he'll have to draw more in later turns, thus gaining absolutely no benefits.
A fair comparison gives Valeros a much higher damage in the first turn and an even higher one in later turns.
Now, if we can get back to the update, there's two (well, actually 6) Alchemist features that suddenly have no more reason to exist - Empower bombs I-VI and Expanded Resonance.
That means room for features, and while it doesn't mean we'll actually get a non-bomber alchemist, changes ARE required. They're just not in this update so that we don't waste time booing them.
Personally, I might be a fan of giving Focus benefits to Infused items, as they are after all the alchemist's spells (limited daily resource prepared in the morning from a book? remind anyone of anything?).
Oh sorry yeah Valeros walks everwhere with his weapons out obviously. Because let's be honest he isn't going to be doing much outside of combat so he might as well have that sword out. And yeah his martial capacity is going to be better than Fumbus sure. It kinda better be or he is a shitty fighter.
But let's compare Fumbus to Seoni cause now apparently she's better at melee than Fumbus.
So Fumbus has his +10 2d6+1 dogslicer vs Seoni's +6 1d4 staff or 1d8 if two-handed. Wait those numbers don't line up at all.
We are comparing the pre-mades for this adventure for this TESTING of the rules we aren't playing let's build the strongest martial damage dealing character.
So now that we have determined the point of focus.
Fumbus in this adventure is clearly showing the power of the Alchemist to be a fantastic support to the team. He has elixers to improve his and his allies skills. As well as bombs that can disrupt the enemy allowing his team to get in and clean them up with little extra effort.
Also let me point this out since you seem dead set on ignoring it.
Alchemists are not going to be primary damage dealers and they don't have to be. They enable the team to do what the team wants to do.
But... Seoni doesn't have magical striker or a +1 weapon. So let me check my math again. 1d4 or 1d8 averaging 2.5 and 4.5. Fumbus was averaging 8. 2.5<8 and 4.5<8. No my math still seems to work out.
Alchemists have a lot of potential to enable the team. But it does help if the team wants to work with you and I'm not sure anyone would even want to sit at a table with you.
If we were to break down each section of a character on a 1-5 scale, Fumbus would probably sit around: For reference the other pre-gens who get 5 in each roll.
I don't think I ever said his utility was greater than Seoni's. Pure-Casters and especially Wizards will always have greater utility than other classes.
But we can go through and breakdown each of Fumbus' formulas if you'd like. Let's start from what he has prepared already.
Lesser Alchemical Fire x4: 2d8+4 Fire + 2 persistent fire Focus 10ft splash [Damage and Persistent]
Lesser Bottled Lightning x2: 2d6+4 Electricity + flat-footed Focus secondary splash target flat-footed [Useful for setting up rogue and martials]
Greater Darkvision Elixer x2: Darkvision 10min Focus 1hr [Useful for stealth and scouting]
Lesser Elixer of Life x2: 3d6 healing +2 item bonus at max HP 1hr fortitude save vs toxin, diseases, poisons, and venoms. Focus double healing [quick heal with fort save bonus option]
Less Quicksilver Mutagen x2: +2 item bonus to Acrobatics checks, Stealth checks, Thievery checks, Reflex saves, and ranged attack rolls, and you become accelerated 10 for 1min [Useful for big fights or for quick sneak and steal for Fumbus]
Now after that he still has 3 Alchemical Reagents left over which reasonably you could spend on Advanced Alchemy for 6 more items but for this sake let's assume Fumbus saves them for Quick Alchemy.
On top of what he already has made he has access to;
Lesser Juggernaut Elixer: +2 item bonus to Fortitude and 10 temp hitpoints for 1 min [Don't really find this one to be too useful unless you really need that 10 temp hitpoints]
Mistform Elixer: Concealed for 1 round Focus concealed for 1 min [Useful for the 25% miss chance especially for people that have lower AC or to dissuade the enemy from targeting the user]
Comprehension Elixer: Allows the user to read common rarity languages Focus durations lasts 1hr [Useful for reading languages your party doesn't have]
Infiltrator's Elixer: Allows the user to take the form of another humanoid or another creature of your type if not humanoid designated by the creater for 10 min after 1 min onset. Focus no onset time [Useful for infiltration and sneaking around enemy formations]
Antidote: +2 item bonus fortitude vs venoms and poisons for 6 hours Focus immediate saving throw if poison or toxin is no greater of a level of antidote + 2 {3} if successful affliction ends. [useful for locations where poisons are known to exist or enemies that use poisons]
Antiplague: +2 item bonus fortitude vs diseases for 24 hours Focus immediate check vs disease with level no greater than antiplague + 2 {3} if successful disease ends. [Useful if party member contracts a disease]
Cheetah's Elixer: Acclerated 5 for 1min Focus 1hr duation. [Useful if you need to get somewhere faster]
Eagle-eye Elixer: +1 item bonus perception check, +2 item bonus perception to find secret doors and traps for 1 min Focus duration 1hr [Useful for finding secret doors/traps and general scouting/searching as well as can give a bonus to initiative based on perception]
Minor Acid Flask: 4 + 1d6 persistent Acid Damage (can be used with empowered bombs so 4 + 2d6 persistent Acid damage) Focus deal damage equal to persistent on hit. [Useful if enemy is weak to Acid as well as just the annoyance of persistent damage]
Minor Liquid Ice: 1d4 + 4 cold damage. (can be used with empowered bombs so 2d4 + 4 cold damage) Target is hampered 10 Focus all creature affected by splash hampered 5 [Useful against enemy weak to cold or to just slow down the enemy]
Minor Thunderstone: 1d4 + 4 Sonic damage (can be used with empowered bombs so 2d4 + 4 Sonic damage) All creatures within 10ft must succeed Fortitude vs DC 15 or be deafened until end of it's next turn. Focus target deafened even on success or 1 min on failure [Useful vs target weak to Sonic damage. Deafened imposes a 25% failure check on actions using auditory actions so good vs casters]
Smokestick: 1 min 5ft radius obscuring cloud of smoke. Creatures within have concealment. [Stick on top of ranged allies to give them concealment while still allowing them to fire out with no penalty.]
Now with all those options I am certain there is great potential and utility with Fumbus.
Let me be clear. This kind of hostility is not the way to get one's point across. Do not disparage someone's style of play or ideas simply because they do not align with yours. Do not try to get around the word filter by swearing with symbols.
You absolutely should not act with this much aggression towards our devs because of their choices regarding mechanics. Personal attacks are not productive, and will not help others see your point of view any better.
I have left the original post up because it has started a productive discussion, and the various posters here have offered points that are worth consideration. Please keep this conversation civil, or the thread will be locked.
I don't think I ever said his utility was greater than Seoni's. Pure-Casters and especially Wizards will always have greater utility than other classes.
But we can go through and breakdown each of Fumbus' formulas if you'd like. Let's start from what he has prepared already.
Lesser Alchemical Fire x4: 2d8+4 Fire + 2 persistent fire Focus 10ft splash [Damage and Persistent]
Lesser Bottled Lightning x2: 2d6+4 Electricity + flat-footed Focus secondary splash target flat-footed [Useful for setting up rogue and martials]
Greater Darkvision Elixer x2: Darkvision 10min Focus 1hr [Useful for stealth and scouting]
Lesser Elixer of Life x2: 3d6 healing +2 item bonus at max HP 1hr fortitude save vs toxin, diseases, poisons, and venoms. Focus double healing [quick heal with fort save bonus option]
Less Quicksilver Mutagen x2: +2 item bonus to Acrobatics checks, Stealth checks, Thievery checks, Reflex saves, and ranged attack rolls, and you become accelerated 10 for 1min [Useful for big fights or for quick sneak and steal for Fumbus]
Now after that he still has 3 Alchemical Reagents left over which reasonably you could spend on Advanced Alchemy for 6 more items but for this sake let's assume Fumbus saves them for Quick Alchemy.
On top of what he already has made he has access to;
Lesser Juggernaut Elixer: +2 item bonus to Fortitude and 10 temp hitpoints for 1 min [Don't really find this one to be too useful unless you really need that 10 temp hitpoints]
Mistform Elixer: Concealed for 1 round Focus concealed for 1 min [Useful for the 25% miss chance especially for people that have lower AC or to dissuade the enemy from targeting the user]
Comprehension Elixer: Allows the user to read common rarity languages Focus durations lasts 1hr [Useful for reading languages your party doesn't have]
Infiltrator's Elixer: Allows the user to take the form of another humanoid or another creature of your type if not humanoid designated by the creater for 10 min after 1 min onset. Focus no onset...
Mistform: concealed for 1 round. with 2 actions. really?
infiltrator's elixir: worse disguise self.
bottled lightning, sure, you can flat-foot a single opponent for 1 round. Any other martial can just flank or feint, but I guess that's passable as a CANTRIP (read: Daze)
Darkvision: not terrible for self if you lack darkvision. Terrible as a "support". How many times have you prepared and casted darkvision on an ally? Personally, over the years i've played pf, maybe around 2-3 times.
Lesser juggernaut is NOT +2 to saves. It's +1 to saves. Every single character has +1 item to all saves already. Nice of you to forget to include the massive penalties it comes with for a much, much worse False life.
Prepared Quicksilver is only usable by Fumbus himself. That's how mutagens work, read them.
Elixir of life: Again, it's not a +2 to saves. It's a +1.
same for antiplague and etc. All those are +1, not +2. Basically the book is trying to deceive you with big numbers that are pure, 100% false. Since you'll ALWAYS have 1 less (or even equal!) +item bonus to all saves.
If you've bothered to read the OP, it's the big bolded letters in the start of it.
etc.
Basically, you just proved me right:
on a scale of 1 to 10, Alchemist support is around... 2-3/10
To understand how bad Alchemist is atm, from actual experience and not just reading stuff and arguing just to argue:
We run the 3rd module with a houserule that our Alchemist had all bombs at will.
Mistform is only an operate action so one action. While holding the Elixer so you hand it to whoever should use it and they drink it. You could also feed it to them so they still have all their actions.
Not comparing the elixers to spells because yeah spells gonna be stronger most of the time. Especially when you can make the Elixer well ahead of time and have lots of them.
Bottled lightning does damage as well as the flat-footed and has the Focus ability to flat-footed two targets so stronger than daze.
Darkvision is fantastic for scouting. Don't need to have a torch or a light spell to scout around. In this case Merisiel the rogue doesn't have Darkvision. It would help her scout and search for traps, while being stealthy, if she could see. Also haven't needed to cast Darkvision on allies because my table is smart enough to have a solution for it if they are our scout.
Yes most Elixer provide item bonus, which I clearly listed when applicable. And yes with the pre-gens it's only going to be a +1 bonus but that's still useful. From what we have seen and heard from Paizo it appears they are looking at a 55% success rate vs DCs at appropriate challenge levels.
Since Fumbus hasn't crafted a Juggernaut mutagen he would be able to make one with a piece of an ally so they didn't suffer the drawbacks assuming he found a need to do so.
I understood that the Quicksilver mutagen only worked for Fumbus, without drawbacks, which is why I wrote "for Fumbus" in that section.
I don't think I proved you right all I feel I proved was that you didn't read everything that I wrote and just cherry-picked pieces in an attempt to continue this hate rant about possible changes for the Alchemist in a Focus Point Test.
Lastly I don't want to say whoever was playing the Alchemist for your group was playing them wrong because that's how they wanted to play. There are a few encounters in part 3 that the Alchemist would have shined. However that was probably overshadowed by the amount of aoe burst the two clerics in that part can put out considering all enemies were undead. Also by allowing the Alchemist to have bombs/at will for that part your GM completely ignored some of the point of that section of the Playtest and that's a bit sad.
Not comparing the elixers to spells because yeah spells gonna be stronger most of the time.
Well, to be perfectly fair...
Items are an alchemist's main class feature, they are a limited resource that refreshes daily, they are prepared ahead of time, and you are granted roughly one per level (plus a handful). Most take two actions to use.
Spells are a spellcaster's main class feature, they are a limited resource that refreshes daily, they are prepared ahead of time, and you are granted roughly one per level (plus a handful). Most take two actions to use.
No really, count them. You'll find that spellcaster actually end up with quite a bit more spells than alchemists have reagents (depending on classes. Clerics end up with about 1-2 more, while Sorcerers reach about a dozen extras), which means reagents are actually a bit more scarce / expensive than spell slots. I'm not counting cantrips, because cantrips are at will and alchemy is not.
I'm not saying they're exactly the same thing, but right now Alchemist feels very much like a wannabe spellcaster. Just a lot weaker. Mechanically, they cover a similar area in the class's strengths and intents, and this should be highly relevant to their balancement.
As for the rest of the post, chapter 3 also had quite a few incorporeals. Alchemist can do absolutely nothing to incorporeals, even at extremely high levels... Unless he has a magic weapon, sure.
A final note:
shroudb, you're absolutely right and I am totally on your side.
However, you're also being a douche.
Chill it so we can continue this talk, or we're gonna end up with a locked thread and no more conversation on how to fix this, and that won't help Alchemist in the slightest. Seriously, we had mods deleting your posts and you're still keeping with the tone, that's not gonna work out.
[apology for the blunt moment, love y'all, give alchemist free focus pls]
I also have concerns about where the alchemist is right now, but as has been pointed out earlier (and officially confirmed) alchemist's are in the highest change space in the playtest, as their core mechanics are based on a new game system that is still very much under construction.
Effectively, the alchemist is a building being built on top of a construction site. Yeah, it's gonna look wobbly for a bit. But that's no reason to be lashing out at people. In fact, it is a great reason to provide sound, rational feedback that the people that love this game at least as much as we do can use to refine the final product.
So yes, I am inclined to agree that alchemist's have some issues with the power of their abilities, especially when moderated by the number of times per day they can use those abilities. I think there are some very interesting ideas in this thread, and would love to see what else the community can come up with. But goodness me, let's put on our sensible adult hat and be civil about it.
I am hereby drinking a Greater Eyeroll Mutagen and burying the Shroudb part of the conversation.
The concern on alchemist, personally, isn't just limited on the items and the resonance system per se, but more about the approach of the class to it. Sure, reviewing items and resonance will help, but it doesn't change the fact that Alchemist feels shoehorned into bombs and bombs don't really seem powerful, even with the new changes. If any of you remember my Alchemist remake thread, build relevance and choice was a big concern.
I realise that the alchemist updates haven't been released or even finalised because of feedback muddling concerns, but is it possible to have at least some dev words on the intent of the changes? What kind of concerns are you mostly looking at addressing, and how big of an impact is that likely to have?
If not, I guess I'll wait, but it'd probably help get rid of some of my rants :)
Mistform is only an operate action so one action. While holding the Elixer so you hand it to whoever should use it and they drink it. You could also feed it to them so they still have all their actions.
Not comparing the elixers to spells because yeah spells gonna be stronger most of the time. Especially when you can make the Elixer well ahead of time and have lots of them.
Bottled lightning does damage as well as the flat-footed and has the Focus ability to flat-footed two targets so stronger than daze.
Darkvision is fantastic for scouting. Don't need to have a torch or a light spell to scout around. In this case Merisiel the rogue doesn't have Darkvision. It would help her scout and search for traps, while being stealthy, if she could see. Also haven't needed to cast Darkvision on allies because my table is smart enough to have a solution for it if they are our scout.
Yes most Elixer provide item bonus, which I clearly listed when applicable. And yes with the pre-gens it's only going to be a +1 bonus but that's still useful. From what we have seen and heard from Paizo it appears they are looking at a 55% success rate vs DCs at appropriate challenge levels.
Since Fumbus hasn't crafted a Juggernaut mutagen he would be able to make one with a piece of an ally so they didn't suffer the drawbacks assuming he found a need to do so.
I understood that the Quicksilver mutagen only worked for Fumbus, without drawbacks, which is why I wrote "for Fumbus" in that section.
I don't think I proved you right all I feel I proved was that you didn't read everything that I wrote and just cherry-picked pieces in an attempt to continue this hate rant about possible changes for the Alchemist in a Focus Point Test.
Lastly I don't want to say whoever was playing the Alchemist for your group was playing them wrong because that's how they wanted to play. There are a few encounters in part 3 that the Alchemist would have shined. However that was probably overshadowed by the amount of aoe burst the two...
You can't be moving with every elixir on hand.
On average, every elixir/bomb except 1/encounter is 2 actions.
It's exactly the same action economy as spells.
Elixirs are the defining features of a class. And even if they are a bit more than spells, they are not overwhelming so:
A sorc at level 10 has something like 20 spells, and another 7 or so from powers/staff.
An alchemist has 15*2 so 30, even if the 9th level feature stays the same (doubtful with the RP changes, that's +5)
We're comparing 27 spells/day +4 cantrips at will vs 35 elixirs at most. at level 10
We've playtest ed part 3 RAW 4 times so far (4 groups) so at this point we use houserules so as to suggest things to mend broken features.
Like alchemist.
And again, you are approaching the issue from a clearly theoretical position :
How many times you prepared and casted Darkvision on an ally in this playtest.
In 4 groups of going from part 1 to 4: 0
Darkvision as utility is "cute". It's far from being competitive though, certainly not competitive with haste, invisibility, glitterdust, fly, etc
Even intimidate is better utility than Darkvision for 2 minutes.
Mistform is only an operate action so one action. While holding the Elixer so you hand it to whoever should use it and they drink it. You could also feed it to them so they still have all their actions.
Not comparing the elixers to spells because yeah spells gonna be stronger most of the time. Especially when you can make the Elixer well ahead of time and have lots of them.
Bottled lightning does damage as well as the flat-footed and has the Focus ability to flat-footed two targets so stronger than daze.
Darkvision is fantastic for scouting. Don't need to have a torch or a light spell to scout around. In this case Merisiel the rogue doesn't have Darkvision. It would help her scout and search for traps, while being stealthy, if she could see. Also haven't needed to cast Darkvision on allies because my table is smart enough to have a solution for it if they are our scout.
Yes most Elixer provide item bonus, which I clearly listed when applicable. And yes with the pre-gens it's only going to be a +1 bonus but that's still useful. From what we have seen and heard from Paizo it appears they are looking at a 55% success rate vs DCs at appropriate challenge levels.
Since Fumbus hasn't crafted a Juggernaut mutagen he would be able to make one with a piece of an ally so they didn't suffer the drawbacks assuming he found a need to do so.
I understood that the Quicksilver mutagen only worked for Fumbus, without drawbacks, which is why I wrote "for Fumbus" in that section.
I don't think I proved you right all I feel I proved was that you didn't read everything that I wrote and just cherry-picked pieces in an attempt to continue this hate rant about possible changes for the Alchemist in a Focus Point Test.
Lastly I don't want to say whoever was playing the Alchemist for your group was playing them wrong because that's how they wanted to play. There are a few encounters in part 3 that the Alchemist would have shined. However that was probably overshadowed by the
...
Ok seriously...
What is suddenly with the competitive thing?
If the skill isn't within maximum it's not competitive. If damage isnt the exact same as a melee hit it isn't competitive. What's next? If HP is less than 12+Con per level it isnt competitive?
This isnt an MMORPG. We're not looking to hit DPS brnchmarks. If you're not optimized you're not bringing the group down.
Alchemists aren't bad. Yes they gotta bust out a melee weapon once in a while. It's all good.
Use bombs as an alpha strike, in moderation, and go for melee elsewhere.
Mistform is only an operate action so one action. While holding the Elixer so you hand it to whoever should use it and they drink it. You could also feed it to them so they still have all their actions.
Not comparing the elixers to spells because yeah spells gonna be stronger most of the time. Especially when you can make the Elixer well ahead of time and have lots of them.
Bottled lightning does damage as well as the flat-footed and has the Focus ability to flat-footed two targets so stronger than daze.
Darkvision is fantastic for scouting. Don't need to have a torch or a light spell to scout around. In this case Merisiel the rogue doesn't have Darkvision. It would help her scout and search for traps, while being stealthy, if she could see. Also haven't needed to cast Darkvision on allies because my table is smart enough to have a solution for it if they are our scout.
Yes most Elixer provide item bonus, which I clearly listed when applicable. And yes with the pre-gens it's only going to be a +1 bonus but that's still useful. From what we have seen and heard from Paizo it appears they are looking at a 55% success rate vs DCs at appropriate challenge levels.
Since Fumbus hasn't crafted a Juggernaut mutagen he would be able to make one with a piece of an ally so they didn't suffer the drawbacks assuming he found a need to do so.
I understood that the Quicksilver mutagen only worked for Fumbus, without drawbacks, which is why I wrote "for Fumbus" in that section.
I don't think I proved you right all I feel I proved was that you didn't read everything that I wrote and just cherry-picked pieces in an attempt to continue this hate rant about possible changes for the Alchemist in a Focus Point Test.
Lastly I don't want to say whoever was playing the Alchemist for your group was playing them wrong because that's how they wanted to play. There are a few encounters in part 3 that the Alchemist would have shined. However that was
...
What are you talking about?
"Alpha strike" bombs do exactly as much as a swing of a weapon but cost 2 actions instead of 1.
So they do less overall damage than weapons.
And I have no issue if the design of the Alchemist is supposed to be using weapons alongside his elixirs, BUT
He gets 0 support for weapon.
Literally every single other class in the game has more support than Alchemist for weapons. Even wizards and Sorcs are better with weapon than Alchemist. And their "Alpha strike" is several times more powerful compared to him, as is their support.
It's not about being "competitive". It's about having a use.
Atm alchemist is like an npc class. Compared to any other PC he falls short in everything.
@Ediwir I agree. I'm not saying the Alchemist is perfect in this nor am I trying to say they are useless. I think it's a move in the right direction and I so far im liking it. There are some things that would be nice to see changed still.
I'd like the bonus provided by the elixers to not be "item bonus" but perhaps "Alchemical bonus" I understand Paizo doesn't want to have a ton of different bonus types around but I figure that drinking something that interacts with your insides should have a different bonus than something that interacts with your outsides.
Expanded resonance would obviously need to change with the new focus system because it was implemented to allow the Alchemist to be able to have Magic items and his Alchemical ones. So I'd like something along the same lines probably that increase his Alchemical Reagents for Quick Alchemy use.
Something that would also be nice would be perhaps a special set of Alchemist Focus Feats that allows the Alchemist to further enhance each type of his Alchemical Items.
Bombs get more damage or bigger full damage radius
Elixers double duration or perhaps allowing the Elixer to be used twice
Mutagens ability score buff based on mutagen or doubled effect at the cost of suffering the drawback.
Lastly, yeah Alchemist are limited by their Reagents for the day however they can still spend downtime making Alchemical items 4 at a time and if Empowered Bombs is staying they can make lvl 1 bombs quickly and empower them(though that begs the question would those bombs count as being crafted as 1st level or would they be 3rd+. Since that would increase the time it would take to make.)
Lastly, yeah Alchemist are limited by their Reagents for the day however they can still spend downtime making Alchemical items 4 at a time and if Empowered Bombs is staying they can make lvl 1 bombs quickly and empower them(though that begs the question would those bombs count as being crafted as 1st level or would they be 3rd+. Since that would increase the time it would take to make.)
I hope that they don't balance the alchemist assuming they'll sit and craft a bunch in downtime. It costs too much (Alch items are in GP not SP. ) and in most games(i've had ) you either don't have the time for downtime crafting. OR. you have 'all the time" and there is no reason to not have made 1000+bombs sitting in elsewhere somewhere. It just gets messy. Its easier if they assume that those details will extra and handled by the GM per game, rather than the gm having to balance in enough downtime for the Alchemist to not have issues. WHILE balancing against other player's doing something else that isn't accounted for.
I do want alchemists to use crafted bombs as well as other bombs. but I don't want them to have to have that.
I still vote for alch substance I mentioned well earlier, or something similar that is modular to the different kind of playstyles the Alchemist should have.
in addition to a few quality of life boosts for their status as off martial off support. Reaction based Alchemical item drawing, Sticky Poison, apply a bomb to a melee weapon and gain minimum damage for INT attacks.
boost to some sorta alchemist like weapons (hand crossbow, darts, blowgun, certain one handed weapons. Maybe reimagine the Injection Spear, alchemcial slings-usable on rocks or bombs. Maybe reload on movement with specific weapons).
Poison should not be loss on a missed attack either. That makes them too much of a risk with how much Alchemists miss (really how much anyone misses)
I also vote for Alchemcial items that do something like temporary runes. Application grants the weapon 1d4 element damage for an hour sort of deal
Quick Alchemy needs some work, as it kind of is a false choice that should really be better for support items than attack items IMO. (pull a silversheen, or an antiplague/poison, antidote, dark vision, jump elixir etc).
honestly just make the base amount full batch or Full Int (i.e. one batch of scrap =full batch or INT amount). and then make Quick Alchemy last 1/min or INT rounds.
I do get they want to avoid the whole "length of time dependent on class/stat" though.
------------------------
But as stated, Alchemist changes can really only come after they solidify their core system right now. That is their priority. these possible changes also help remove the Alchemist from being tied to the core gameplay mechanic. If this update or something similar goes through it will also help the Alchemist be unrelated to a basepillar of the system. which will allow it to be updated on its own more readily.
Lastly, yeah Alchemist are limited by their Reagents for the day however they can still spend downtime making Alchemical items 4 at a time and if Empowered Bombs is staying they can make lvl 1 bombs quickly and empower them(though that begs the question would those bombs count as being crafted as 1st level or would they be 3rd+. Since that would increase the time it would take to make.)
I hope that they don't balance the alchemist assuming they'll sit and craft a bunch in downtime. It costs too much (Alch items are in GP not SP. ) and in most games(i've had ) you either don't have the time for downtime crafting. OR. you have 'all the time" and there is no reason to not have made 1000+bombs sitting in elsewhere somewhere. It just gets messy. Its easier if they assume that those details will extra and handled by the GM per game, rather than the gm having to balance in enough downtime for the Alchemist to not have issues. WHILE balancing against other player's doing something else that isn't accounted for.
I do want alchemists to use crafted bombs as well as other bombs. but I don't want them to have to have that.
I still vote for alch substance I mentioned well earlier, or something similar that is modular to the different kind of playstyles the Alchemist should have.
in addition to a few quality of life boosts for their status as off martial off support. Reaction based Alchemical item drawing, Sticky Poison, apply a bomb to a melee weapon and gain minimum damage for INT attacks.
boost to some sorta alchemist like weapons (hand crossbow, darts, blowgun, certain one handed weapons. Maybe reimagine the Injection Spear, alchemcial slings-usable on rocks or bombs. Maybe reload on movement with specific weapons).
Poison should not be loss on a missed attack either. That makes them too much of a risk with how much Alchemists miss (really how much anyone misses)
I also vote for Alchemcial items that do something like temporary runes. Application grants the...
The main reason I made this thread now is because we saw a bunch of reimagined and revamped elixirs/bombs.
I still feel that the crux of the problem is simply that Elixirs, bombs and mutagens are flat out not good enough.
Since this test was focused on said consumables, I felt it was appropriate.
A 1 round concealment is not good enough.
A +x item saving throw vs a very specific thing, when we already always have +x item bonus to ALL saving throws by default, is not good enough
A 1 splash damage bomb is not good enough.
50% less healing from equal level pots is not good enough.
And etc.
All the above are irrespective of actual Alchemist class changes.
The main reason that Alchemist support is hot garbage is because the Elixirs are garbage compared to other consumables (potions, scrolls, wands, etc)
I mean, compare potion of invisibility (a lvl 3 consumable) to Mistform (a level 3 consumable)
One has a better effect, a longer duration AND a better focus usage compared to the other.
Compare healing pots to elixirs of life, using a level that both get an advancement, 12, Healing pots heal for 7d8+20 (51.5) and elixir for 10d6 (35). One is flat out 50% better than the other.
I strongly agree that alchemist needs something it can do at-will so that it can be an alchemist all day. Every other class has some kind of at-will ability, alchemist is the odd duck out.
I will also be very surprised if there isn't something in the final version, since I've seen that feedback on the alchemist quite consistently.
Also if you read between the lines on Mark's post, he basically outright says that they already have other alchemist changes lined up; that's why it was a choice whether to include them or not.
Pretty much everyone is aware that alchemist is in a non-ideal place right now, and the devs are definitely aware of that too.
I strongly agree that alchemist needs something it can do at-will so that it can be an alchemist all day. Every other class has some kind of at-will ability, alchemist is the odd duck out.
I will also be very surprised if there isn't something in the final version, since I've seen that feedback on the alchemist quite consistently.
Also if you read between the lines on Mark's post, he basically outright says that they already have other alchemist changes lined up; that's why it was a choice whether to include them or not.
Pretty much everyone is aware that alchemist is in a non-ideal place right now, and the devs are definitely aware of that too.
i mean, sure, Alchemist needs a lot of stuff.
but again, this was more focused on the actual Elixirs, bombs, and etc that are presented and made for the test.
I do agree that giving item bonuses is weird considering magic armor.
It's entirely possible though that alchemists will have class features that make alchemical items awesome for them, and they will just be kinda lame for everyone else. :)
It's also possible that the devs were trying not to reinvent the wheel too much and keep the actual power level of the items similar to where they were before, for the same reasons Mark mentioned.
I think it might be benefical to drop this thread and create one specifically concerning the alchemical items. This one has kind of lots its focus (I rather doubt many folks will read through this and it is more about the Alchemist than the items itself).
I do think that the Items and the proposed alterations would be a good thing to discuss. As it stands I'd really just use Acid. though right now I really only just use acid.
I can't really ever bring myself to care about the splash effect and likely woudln't try to increase it to INT level, as eventually 1 won't matter terribly to my friends after a point compared to a status effect.
I'd suggest a
"Resonance Playtest. Alchemical Item discussion" thread would be a good one to start up. Then discuss the base form and the focused forms and such.
....really hope they make a seperate section purely for the Res Test.It is causing a lot of issues to have it mixed in with the standard playtest.
