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Hi all,
at the moment I am playing a very damage-focused 8th level ranged Warpriest (Arsenal Chaplain) in RotR. I am very satisfied of my character so far, both in terms of mechanics and RP, and I have no complaints about it.
However, one of the things I enjoy of this game is to watch my character evolve mechanically during time, acquiring new abilities and becoming able to do new things he wasn't able to do before. Having played it since level 1, I feel its potential has peaked around level 6, when he got Manyshot (arguably the end-point of many archery builds), Advanced Weapon Training for on-demand Bane arrows, and Haste from his fellow Arcanist. From that point on, I have had the impression that his build has saturated: sure, he will grow stronger level after level, but since reaching that peak, it feels like he has somehow lost his spark.
I was therefore thinking about changing character to feel again that excitement of a new role, but I realised that the ranged DPR might be the only role my party is missing. The group is composed by a tanky fighter with decent damage (reach weapon, Shield Brace, Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard), buff-DPR Skald (also reach weapon + Banner of the Ancient Kings, Flagbearer and decent spellcasting), high DPR Hellknight (not reach weapon yet, but probably he is going to soon, seen the effectiveness of his companions) and a Brown Fur Transmuter Arcanist with a very varied set of spells. Out of combat challenges are generally addressed by the Arcanist and the Bard, while my Warpriest takes care of the divine spellcasting (restoration, condition-removals, downtime heals,...) and scouting.
I am aware that leaving this group without a dedicated ranged DPR might be bad, but I see no reason to switch from a (very good) ranged character to another. While I would be happy to stick to this character, I wonder if you have any suggestions about a new one, with a different role that also fits well the party.
Thank you all for your help!
My RotRl group has a similiar warpriest. He has branched out into the overwatch and snapshot feats, adding defensive and countering fire to his proactive offense. YMMV but this seems to be keeping his interest and growth going.
Your Warpriest could always be "reborn" as a Guided Hand avatar of Ra, throwing brutal two-handed WIS/STR spear attacks. With Ricochet Toss, you can use the same weapon for every throw (call it a "spirit spear" or something). You also get to melee with a spear with the same stats with Guided Hand, and if you dip a level of Unchained Monk you can flurry with thrown or melee spear, using your stacked WIS for both attack and AC.
This is one of my pet peeves, a player that wants to abandon an established character in the middle of a campaign so they can fiddle with different mechanics (i.e they are bored.) As a GM, I want to make sure every player has fun, and it isn't 'wrong' that you like to play with lots of different mechanics so when I come up against this sort of issue I want to help out, but it is a challenge.
The most obvious way that it is a challenge is that part of my enjoyment as a GM is customizing a campaign to the character. Even with published material, like an AP, I'm going to try an add stuff for your character to reference your backstory and pique your interests. Saying you want a new character for the above reason would be telling me I wasted my time with all that, and makes the game less fun for me. Similarly, depending on the play style of the other players this might be a problem for them as well, as they have to accept losing a member and accepting another without any real good in-game reason. This can lower the experience of for them, and making one player happier while making another player(s) less happy is certainly not ideal.
With that said, my advice will be related to ways that you can mitigate your displeasure without impacting other too much.
The first would be to see if there is anything you can do with the current build as you progress that you would find interesting. While you might not see any big mechanical jumps in ranged DPR, you might could focus on another aspect of the character and improve that. Multiclassing is an option as well, although you probably won't get much out of anything but a martial class at this point. Perhaps you could look into more of a focus on spells, or magic item creation or something. Getting you casting abilities so you could more perform battlefield control rather than just striking might actually increase your groups ability (depending on what the brown fur transmuter actually does in combat.)
The second would be a rebuild in stats, but not 'character.' In other words, see if your GM and fellow players are cool with you keeping the same character with his history intact, but set up as a different class that has more mechanical bells and whistles. If you easily get bored I'd look at the Shaman or Spirit Guide Oracle since wandering spirit gives you lots of different options all the time. Either can make competent archers and 9, rather than 6, levels of casting gives you options as well. For the most part your 'new' character could have done most of the things your 'old' character did (healing etc.) so it should fit in pretty seamlessly.
If you want a different role in the party, it looks like strikers are well covered, which is good since that is what you are doing now and losing one won't hurt too bad. The bad news is that everything may be well covered already. You appear to have 2 strikers, one of which does some control via reach weapons, a support character that also does some control via reach and also a bit of striking probably. The wild card is the BFR. An arcanist could be any role, usually I would expect a Brown-Fur Transmuter to either be support or striking, as they get bonuses for those roles but if they are acting as a controller, and enjoy that, then really you probably will serve your party best as a 3rd striker with a secondary support role (like you are now.)
If the BFR doesn't (or doesn't want to) act as a controller, their are some options for you there. Finding ways to force the opponents into the worst places for your reach builds is part of what battlefield control is all about. Preventing things from out of your range from attacking your group is also part of that job. Sometimes battlefield control can be 'moving' the battle (group dimension door for example) so that those ranged attackers your group were threatened with are now in the reach of and threatened with full attacks from your strikers.
Battlefield control is in my opinion the most challenging role to play, and you might like that. Constantly finding ways to minimize the damage your opponents can inflict is more about creativity and problem solving than any particular build (although high save DCs and 9 levels of spells is a good place to start) that might be something that would work for you. While Wizard is the quintessential controller, Cleric can do the job fine (and would mesh better with your former characters duties.) With the right discoveries, alchemists can be incredible controllers as well, and that (particularly if you go with grenadier) could keep the ranged option going as well and with infusions you aren't too bad at cures.
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Hi Dave, thanks for your suggestions. I will quickly address some of the points you made to better describe the context for everyone reading the thread.
The most obvious way that it is a challenge is that part of my enjoyment as a GM is customizing a campaign to the character. Even with published material, like an AP, I'm going to try an add stuff for your character to reference your backstory and pique your interests. Saying you want a new character for the above reason would be telling me I wasted my time with all that, and makes the game less fun for me.
First of all, very little (if anything) has been done by the GM to adapt the AP to the characters (at least mine). The AP has been played mainly by the book, with no customization whatsoever, therefore no efforts would be wasted if I changed my character (if anything, the GM would be happy, since he has often complained about the effectiveness of this character. But this is a matter for another thread...).
Similarly, depending on the play style of the other players this might be a problem for them as well, as they have to accept losing a member and accepting another without any real good in-game reason.
The reason why I posted this thread now is because, given my character's story and where we are right now in the AP, there would be believable in-game reasons for him to leave the party, and a new character to join (I won't go too much into details to avoid spoilers). On the other hand, this is somehow the scenario that I, as a player, have been facing: when I joined the party, it was composed by a buffer-only Bard, a debuffer Mesmerist, a Sorcerer w/ Roc animal companion and the tanky Fighter. Clearly, a real damage-dealer was missing, which is why I chose this role. Then, one by one, the Mesmerist got substituted by a DPR, the Bard became less of a buffer and more of a DPR, and the Fighter retrained to a more offensive (but still tanky) build. Suddenly, being a DPR is not a priority for me anymore.
Now, to address your main points.
The first would be to see if there is anything you can do with the current build as you progress that you would find interesting.
This is indeed my first option for now. The reason why I'm asking for a back-up character is because I like to have multiple options for when time comes. One idea was to invest in the Snap Shot feats: unfortunately, with all the melees being at reach, it would be impossible for me to score AoOs while staying in the second row. I think I will instead branch out a bit into debuffing: since at least one of the melees has invested in Cornugon Smash, and the Skald knows Blistering Invective, I might consider getting a Cruel bow and Burrowing Shot to stack some debuffs.
The second would be a rebuild in stats, but not 'character.'
The actual WP is basically a hunter of Erastil. Another option was to rebuild him as a Nature Fang Druid/Evangelist: the damage output would be definitely lower, but higher versatility.
If you want a different role in the party, it looks like strikers are well covered, which is good since that is what you are doing now and losing one won't hurt too bad. The bad news is that everything may be well covered already.
After posting this thread, I started thinking about a dedicated healer. We are good at dealing damage, but our defenses aren't great. I feel a Pei Zin Practitioner Oracle (basically, a single-classed Oradin) would fit the role very well, being good at padding damage and at the same time covering the full divine-caster role.
I thank all for the suggestions so far, please keep 'em coming!
My vote, ranked in order: Oracle, Witch, Shaman, Cleric, Druid, Magus, Investigator, Summoner, Mesmerist, Occultist, Alchemist, Gunslinger.
Any one of those classes would synergize well. I think you should seriously consider Oracle, Witch, or Shaman first though
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Hi Meirril, sorry but I missed your reply. Crits are indeed a big part of archery builds but, as explained, I would like to invest in something else apart from damage (also, crits don't multiply on Manyshot). With a ~+20 to hit I'm not afraid of high ACs, while with a big assortment of unbreakable arrows (adamantine, cold iron, silver), blunt arrows, Ghost Touch blanches and Holy/Axiomatic on demand through Sacred Weapon, DR doesn't scare me too much.
Concerning
Personally I'm surprised you've played a character for 8 levels and haven't become invested in it.
I'll say that probably I didn't explain myself as clearly as I intended before. I am definitely invested in this character, which to me is not simply a pack of numbers but also a bundle of emotions. He grew up only with his mother, a Shoanti ex-priestess of Erastil, banished for loving a man from a different tribe. He lived at the outskirts of society, learning the Erastil's teachings about the importance of family and community, and yet always alone. As an adult, he has freed himself from his outcast condition and proven worthy to be part of a group. But now, a small, defenseless town (coincidentally dedicated to Erastil for completely unrelated reasons) might need his help: he can be the one responsible for the safety of a whole community, and finally fulfill his dream to be truly accepted. The only thing keeping him from doing it is the attachment to his group and their quest.
As you can see, it is not that I don't feel close to this character, but rather than, given the in-game circumstances and my thoughts as a player, I feel that this character has given everything it was supposed to give. Not all characters need to get to level 20 to achieve their life-long goals.
Ranged bard, paladin or monk could do nicely.
I'd rather not change a ranged DPR for another ranged DPR. If I'm going to change character, I want to do it for good.
I think you should seriously consider Oracle, Witch, or Shaman first though
What do you think of a Pei Zin Practitioner Oracle focused on healing (duh?) and spellcasting? I feel it would be better than a basic Oradin, since there are already enough people dealing damage, and only one (arcane) full caster.
If you want to, go for it. I've been kinda messing around with a concept build lately that you might find interesting, and would synergize well with your group I think.
Go Human for the extra Feat. Heavens Oracle1 / Arcane Bloodline Sorc18 / Enthusiast Cleric1
Start Heavens Oracle1: Wayang Spellhunter, Magical Lineage, Voices of Solid Things, Drawback (in anything you want)
Put Wayang/Lineage on Color Spray so you can Empower for free. Why empowered color spray? 2d4 (+50%)rounds unconscious/blinded/stunned, then 1d4 (+50%)rounds stunned/blinded, then 1 round stunned. I wanted Empower Spell for late game nuking with Shadow Evoc anyway, so I figured get it early and go nuts with Color Spray :)
1st revelation: Awesome Display:
Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).
So, if you had a 6 modifier on your charisma, and you're taking on 7HD mobs, you'd treat their HD as if it were 1HD for the purposes of Color Spray, Hypnotic Pattern, Scintillating Pattern, etc. So you're going to be doing AoE knockouts on lvl 7 creatures as if they were lvl 1 creatures :P lol :P
Then go all Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer after that (just for the spells and the lvl 15 ability really, Arcane Bloodline has an awesome spell list), and pick up any +4 initiative familiar. Pick up Blood Intensity and Blood Piercing in lieu of the lvl 3/9 abilities. Intensity for nuking with Shadow Evocation, and Piercing for overcoming BBEG SR.
You'll start the game with +9 Initiative (5 from Cha), and it goes up every time you boost your Cha (you should have a 36 Cha by lvl 20 with +6 headband, +5 wish, +5 lvl bonus).
Enthusiast Cleric is 3rd party. My group plays with 3rd party stuff, but if yours doesn't then it's not super crucial to the build so don't worry. It's just a easy way to get Cha to AC and allow for "Charisma Raging" Holy Fervor a lot of rounds per day. You can get the 1 level of Enthusiast Cleric at any point in time in the build, but I'd save it for as late as you can possibly get it because Sorc early game spell progression is slooooow and you've already dipped a lvl in Oracle1.
Anywho, feats:
1 Scion of War Spell Focus (Illusion)
2
3 Empower Spell
4
5 Spell Specialization: Mirror Image
6
7 Heighten Spell
8 Change SS: Shadow Conjuration BF: Improved Initiative
9 Quicken Spell
10 Change SS: Shadow Evocation
11 Preferred Spell: Shadow Evocation
12
13 Maximize Spell
14 BF: Scribe Scroll
15 Spell Perfection: Shadow Evocation
16
17 Solid Shadows
18
19 Spell Penetration
20
Basically the idea is to go first (or second) and knock everything out with Heightened Empowered Color Sprays, Hypnotic Pattern, Loathsome Veil, Scintillating Pattern, etc. Preferred Spell: Shadow Evoc allows you to Heighten/Max/Emp any Evocation spell you want on the fly and without increasing the cast time, and Solid Shadows lets you deal 40% on Shadow Evoc and 80% on Greater Shadow Evoc even if they save the Will save. If you want some extra umph, use Blood Intensity. Your primary job is control, but you're also a back up nuker (and really good at nuking with Illusions too).
The main point of boosting Shadow Evocation is to basically give you every possible nuking spell you'd want. Battering blast, Fireball, Hydraulic Torrent, Wind Wall, Air Geyser, you name it. Same with Greater Shadow Evocation.
Anything you come across with a crap will save is absolutely screwed. And even if they have a good will save, you're still going to give them a run for their money, and if their Will is impossible, then you're still a Sorcerer. Huck a fireball or firesnake at 'em :)
(if anything, the GM would be happy, since he has often complained about the effectiveness of this character. But this is a matter for another thread...)
He should consider himself fortunate that you're not a summons-spammer, or one of those Swashbuckler types that wants his critters to roll everything twice from OP&R...
...but anyway, I assume you're the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain archetype (as they are the strongest Warpriest archers due to Weapon Training)....? ...and also own Gloves of Dueling?
1) If not, retrain into, and grab that gear.
2) Feat & item shopping list: Quick Draw, Combat Flexes, Opalescent White Pyramid, (full version, tucked into a wayfinder for WF:Fauchard). Get rid of Precise Shot to make feat slot room.
--Now you're a true switch-hitter, and those one-trick-pony-in-a-rut blues go away. Any weapon you have Weapon Focus in qualifies for your Weapon Training bonus.
I would like to invest in something else apart from damage
For dialed-down combat DPR, retrain to full cleric who keeps the bow, reach-weapon, combat-reflexes and quick draw. Sell the gloves. Result trades Weapon Training for power Tier-1 class divine casting. Or go druid and ride around on your cat.
I agree with Slim Jim, try to get a free retrain to cleric. You can keep most of the flavor and appearance of the old character, but start focusing on your magic instead of your combat.
I agree with Slim Jim, try to get a free retrain to cleric. You can keep most of the flavor and appearance of the old character, but start focusing on your magic instead of your combat.
Dropping a single level of Fighter at 1st in the rebuild will grant heavy armor, a feat, and martial weapon proficiencies. That'll permit keeping most of probable present gear while still receiving better spellcasting by 8th character level. Do Ranger or Slayer instead of Fighter if class skills and +4 points to spend are judged more valuable than a feat and heavy armor.
You could always go for some kind of debuff/combat Cleric with auras and some choice control spells.
A Cleric/Monk1 with Guided Hand can use WIS for attack, AC, Monk abilities, Cleric abilities, and of course spellcasting; a deity with a Monk weapon like Nethys or Hei Feng or Crusader's Flurry means you can flurry your Guided Hand weapon.
As an example:
Chaotic Unchained Monk 1/ Separatist Hei Feng Cleric (backstory: ditched lawful and left the temple to follow Hei Feng). Guided Hand with 9-ring broadsword Power Attack Flurry of Blows. Bonus Dodge, WIS AC and Magic Vestment for "armor". Protean\Chaos Domain for: Touch of Chaos (through Conductive 9-ring) and Aura of Chaos. Separatist Deception\Trickery Domain for Mirror Image and Confusion. Favorite Cleric spells: Aura of Doom, Instrument of Agony. Cornugon Stun and Mantis Style for sword-based high WIS Stunning Fist.
So against whole groups he runs a constant Shaken aura, throws Confusion, and can activate a hilarious Chaos aura. Against single targets, his sword can deliver Nauseated, Stunned, or worse-reroll. He has solid Flurry combat, and decent AC with the ability to cast Mirror Image. He can Veil the whole party. He worships primal chaos through a storm god.
While flavorful and strong at higher level, lining up Channel Smite (tax-feat, and especially worthless if converting from a Warpriest build with probably diminished or dumped charisma), Guided Hand, and Crusader's Flurry will blow a smoking hole right through an 8th-level cleric's meager feat allotment. Discounting the monk feat, he'll have only two left for anything else, only one if also Power Attack, then none if also non-human.
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As already said, if I am going to keep the same character but retrained, I will probably go Nature Fang Druid/Evangelist, which better reflects the survivalist/hunter flavour of this character, while giving him more versatility through spellcasting. This would allow me to focus mainly on Wis through the Erastil's Blessing and still get the main archery feats via Ranger combat feats.
@BadBird, I have no reason to "keep" this character and yet completely overturn its role, alignment, deity, combat style and overall flavour: from LG archer of Erastil to C- swordsman of Hei Feng? No thanks. If that's the case, then I will simply get a new character for the reasons explained before. And given the composition of the party, I am definitely not going to play the fourth melee one.
Nature Fang Druid/Evangelist (of Erastil)
Those are very shiny, especially around 11th or whenever they can start cloning their animal companion.
Mammoth Rider dip for extra spice, because who wouldn't want two humongous megafauna monster pets charging around? (Make an AoO-focused Hunter build rather than druid, and eventually your GM will be begging you to take your merely "effective" archer back.)
While flavorful and strong at higher level, lining up Channel Smite (tax-feat, and especially worthless if converting from a Warpriest build with probably diminished or dumped charisma), Guided Hand, and Crusader's Flurry will blow a smoking hole right through an 8th-level cleric's meager feat allotment. Discounting the monk feat, he'll have only two left for anything else, only one if also Power Attack, then none if also non-human.
You don't need Crusader's Flurry at all with a Monk weapon deity. Otherwise you can always take Crusader Cleric for free focus if needed; be a Crusader of Magdh and flurry a scythe. Feats are there to be spent on hopefully cool things, and it's not like you have to be dumb about it. The build I mentioned has Guided Hand plus Power Attack down by 5 without a bonus Human feat. A Human Crusader Cleric could have GHand and CFlurry down by level 3.
Anyhow, the point of Guided Hand is to be a strong spellcaster while being able to use your casting stat for attack rolls. You can do it with Erastil and a longbow if you want to, though there are challenges to that.
In fact, a Nature Fang could do Guided Hand by picking up a Channel Domain, and since they don't need DEX for Multishot they can focus on WIS/STR archery. Which is extremely useful for obvious reasons.
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Anyhow, the point of Guided Hand is to be a strong spellcaster while being able to use your casting stat for attack rolls. You can do it with Erastil and a longbow if you want to, though there are challenges to that.
In fact, a Nature Fang could do Guided Hand by picking up a Channel Domain, and since they don't need DEX for Multishot they can focus on WIS/STR archery. Which is extremely useful for obvious reasons.
Dude, I don't need Guided Hand! Also, what even a Channel Domain is?
@Slim Jim
...but anyway, I assume you're the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain archetype (as they are the strongest Warpriest archers due to Weapon Training)....? ...and also own Gloves of Dueling?
1) If not, retrain into, and grab that gear.
2) Feat & item shopping list: Quick Draw, Combat Flexes, Opalescent White Pyramid, (full version, tucked into a wayfinder for WF:Fauchard). Get rid of Precise Shot to make feat slot room.
--Now you're a true switch-hitter, and those one-trick-pony-in-a-rut blues go away.
1) As said in the OP, the WP is already an Arsenal Chaplain, and he has already got a pair of Gloves of Dueling
2) With Point Blank Master I have no reason to pick up melee feats and split wealth and actions across two types of weapons. As far as AoOs are concerned, I could still do them via the Snapshot feats, however the meat-wall created by the three reach-melees makes it impossible for me to score AoOs unless I go myself on the front-line too, which is not an option.
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I will throw a few ideas at the wall.
What about getting burrowing shot to give yourself a bit of support ability. It combinds well with Ranged Weapon Tricks hindering shot. The caster will like you.
If you can spend some feats on a camel and start using ranged team work feats. Or get any number of other animals that can support the group. With the skald, a transmuted and spell share an AC would be quite successful in this group.
Reasonable people may differ, but once fly comes on I don't the range dps is a required roll. There is just DPS at range has some nice beifit but not enough to make it a must have role IMO.
Take the feats to get a familiar/ imported familair they can fill all kind of small rolls and add to game play. Azata and fairy dragon some to mind.
Dude, I don't need Guided Hand! Also, what even a Channel Domain is?
True enough, Erastil's Blessing works if you're using longbow.
A "Channel Domain" is a Druid domain granting some form of Channel Energy, like Arctic. Which on a character who can't use Erastil's Blessing opens up Guided Hand.
Edit: like say, if someone wanted to use Nature Fang spear throw/melee with STR/WIS as a different kind of range attack.