With the change to Rogue choices in 1.3 an opportunity presented itself. Back in D&D 4e, I had a character whom I liked. He was an elven rogue, dual weilding katars with magical enhancement increasing crit range, and crit damage. The whole point was rerolling attacks with Elven Accuracy to fish for crits.
I complained a little on release that the katar was Agile, but not Finesse for rogues. It was awkward to have to still attack with Str, and damage with Dex (would still like the 1d4 katar to be Finesse, even for this build, cause it is still fairly terrible. Or at least make it a d6 weapon). However, a new opportunity popped in. The Brute Rogue.
The Katar and the Brute Attack is like a match made in heaven (would still prefer it Finesse). It focuses on wanting to crit as often as possible with the Flat-Footed, and new critical rules requiring only 10 over target instead of nat 20 only. You're looking at (Wd4 + SA)2 + Qd6 + 1d4+(Q OR W) bleed. That is a satisfyingly massive crit.
The downside: I don't really know the easy way to make this character. He's very MAD. Since the Katar isn't Finesse, he needs Str for attack rolls (more important to me than damage since the goal is to crit). Dex is the Signature Ability for Rogues so we need that decently high, especially for our AC. Int, Wis, and Cha can't really be dumped either cause he is still the skill focus of the party he's likely to be in. The original was always a Charisma character (he got it on damage and was a fast talker) so that's I think gonna be the aim for third highest? The Wis for Perception.
The big question though: What else can be added to push up that crit rate?
Update 1.4 added Elf Weapon Expert so there's another +1.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you want to crit go fighter.
Sadly this is true; no other class can even come close to a fighter's crit rate. If you want a critical hit based build, fighter is your only option currently.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you want to crit go fighter.Sadly this is true; no other class can even come close to a fighter's crit rate. If you want a critical hit based build, fighter is your only option currently.
Can multiclassing Fighter work? Without the Sneak Attack to damage the Katar, even with Deadly and the Knife critical specialization will be lackluster.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can multiclassing Fighter work?
No, the fighter dedication caps out at expert weapon proficiency at 12th level. With the 1.4 update there are now 13th level ancestry feats that do the same thing, and you should never spend a class feat on something you could have gotten as an ancestry feat. This has made fighter dedication significantly less valuable, and actually a bit underpowered IMO.
If your main class is fighter, you get legendary proficiency at 13th level.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No.
The playtest simply doesn't work that way. The various pieces only Voltron together in specific ways, any other way is simply not functional.
Strength rogue, even with brute attack, is bad. Since the Rogue class bonus is only dex, you're forever behind, and the simple weapons are really bad anyway, even if you multi-class into cleric and take the feat to get the damage die increase to favored weapons.
Weapons are a large table of mostly trash and traps, and the katar definitely falls into the latter as it requires even more resources to get. Choosing a weapon for flavor or aesthetics is absolutely punished by these rules, especially as you go up in level and get magical weapons.
You want the biggest die type you can get if you want damage focus, those finesse limits that somewhat, and sneak attack progression is bad enough that going down to d4 is completely unacceptable at any level. You just don't have the damage output- at 11th level 3d4+3d6 (+bonuses) or even 4d4+3d6 is still just really sad.
---
While you could build 'elf with katars,' it'd be objectively terrible no matter how you did it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you want to crit go fighter. Otherwise you'll be eternally stuck at nat 20 for crit vs same level opponents.
The topic title is "I wanna Crit Rogue" not "I wanna Crit." The OP has a specific character in mind - it's not a question of what's optimal but rather of how to optimize this concept.
While you could build 'elf with katars,' it'd be objectively terrible no matter how you did it.
So what? The OP wants to play an 'elf rogue with katars'. The topic is answering the question of how best to do that. The OP didn't ask "should I" or "is this a good idea", the OP asked...
The big question though: What else can be added to push up that crit rate?
Running off LuniasM's Hit Rates by Class spreadsheet, Rogues are on par to Barbarians in regards to Accuracy (which is weird) and below Rangers/Monks/Paladins/Fighters. They have to rely on tactics, buffs, and conditions to land more criticals. Multiclass is also an option to help push this higher.
--o Anything that makes the target Flatfooted
---| Lots of options. Feint fits the high CHA concept.
--o Oil of Keen Edges/Keen Rune
--o Anything that gives you more Strikes/More Changes to Crit
---| Speed Rune/Any source of Haste
---| Opportune Backstab
---| Various Multiclass Dedications
---| Vicious Debilitations (Sluggish!)
--o Anything that boosts attack rolls
---| Fighter Dedication to gain Master simple weapon proficiency
---| Magic Weapons
---| Allies who have buffs like Inspire Courage
---| Belt of Giant Strength
--o Anything that lowers target AC
---| Allies who can afflict the target
Feint is a good starting point that sets up Sneak Attack and lowers the target's AC. Unfortunately, it won't stack with Flanking but this does fit with the character's charismatic background. As do the Rogue's myriad of Critical effects. Intimidation for Demoralize won't help directly but will lower their checks by making them Frightened and down the road there's a feat that makes targets who are Frightened Flatfooted. Sadly there's no rune to add the Finesse trait to a weapon in the playtest but I'm pretty confident that there will be in the final version.
Weapons are a large table of mostly trash and traps
Agreed; the weapon list either needs a serious balance overhaul, or some major pruning to remove the unnecessary trash options. For instance in their current state the longsword and bastard sword should just be merged into a single weapon, because the bastard sword is a strictly superior option.
Monk MC at 2 -> get Wolf Stance at lvl4 and Ghost Strike at lvl8 via multiclass feats
Ghost Strike is a 6th level Monk feat, so you need to be 12th level to pick it up. Still a pretty solid combo, just doesn't come online very early.
The topic title is "I wanna Crit Rogue" not "I wanna Crit." The OP has a specific character in mind - it's not a question of what's optimal but rather of how to optimize this concept.
I do think, especially in the context of the playtest, that it's a very fair comment to say that there isn't a good way to do it currently.
They have to rely on tactics, buffs, and conditions to land more criticals
The problem is that an equivalent fighter can and will be utilizing all those same benefits. You're always two points behind no matter what you do, and two points is a big deal in PF2.
--o Anything that makes the target Flatfooted
---| Lots of options. Feint fits the high CHA concept.
--o Oil of Keen Edges/Keen Rune
--o Anything that gives you more Strikes/More Changes to Crit
---| Speed Rune/Any source of Haste
---| Opportune Backstab
---| Various Multiclass Dedications
---| Vicious Debilitations (Sluggish!)
--o Anything that boosts attack rolls
---| Fighter Dedication to gain Master simple weapon proficiency
---| Magic Weapons
---| Allies who have buffs like Inspire Courage
---| Belt of Giant Strength
--o Anything that lowers target AC
---| Allies who can afflict the target
Italisized things, awesome selections I'll have to look into.
I had a question about the bolded one. How do you get Master through Fighter Dedication? I wanna take it anyway in order to take Double Slice at 4. Two full attack rolls have higher crit chance than two separated with the -4 multiple attack penalty. However all I could find was getting stuff to Expert, which as a Rogue will happen anyway with the Katar.
How do you get Master through Fighter Dedication?
I presume that's a typo. Fighter Dedication only takes you up to expert. If it could take you to master that would be a big deal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you want to crit go fighter. Otherwise you'll be eternally stuck at nat 20 for crit vs same level opponents.The topic title is "I wanna Crit Rogue" not "I wanna Crit." The OP has a specific character in mind - it's not a question of what's optimal but rather of how to optimize this concept.
While you could build 'elf with katars,' it'd be objectively terrible no matter how you did it.So what? The OP wants to play an 'elf rogue with katars'. The topic is answering the question of how best to do that. The OP didn't ask "should I" or "is this a good idea", the OP asked...
You can. You can totally build it.
Why would you want to?
How do you get Master through Fighter Dedication?I presume that's a typo. Fighter Dedication only takes you up to expert. If it could take you to master that would be a big deal.
My error. I got confused and thought Weapon Mastery was a Feat. Derp, derp.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can. You can totally build it.
Why would you want to?
Because people play for different reasons?
*dusts off copy of Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering*
Not everyone is a Power Gamer or Butt-Kicker. Some players are Specialists or Method Actors. And that's okay. Let's not discourage folks from doing what they find entertaining just because it's mechanically suboptimal.
Also, personally, I find the challenge of optimizing mechanically "weak" character concepts more fun than optimizing "strong" character concepts.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can. You can totally build it.
Why would you want to?
Because people play for different reasons?
*dusts off copy of Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering*
Not everyone is a Power Gamer or Butt-Kicker. Some players are Specialists or Method Actors. And that's okay. Let's not discourage folks from doing what they find entertaining just because it's mechanically suboptimal.
Also, personally, I find the challenge of optimizing mechanically "weak" character concepts more fun than optimizing "strong" character concepts.
Yeah okay.
Till the community tell them it's wrong. And the math tell them it's wrong. And the guides tell them it's wrong. And the rules tell them it's wrong. And their fellow players.
Not a power gamer? Too bad, become one to keep up or get out.
*Lights the Robin's Law book on fire*
It didn't let you get the numbers high enough and everyone knows you're supposed to get the numbers high enough. Otherwise you're a badwrongfun GM or player.
They want to go crit rogue. Go for it.
Better be ready to be told it's wrong by everyone and their brother so I hope they have a supportive group. I mean we have people, in the thread already, saying "Oh this is how you do Crit, why aren't you doing it that way". The rules aren't even finalized!
So again. You CAN. Why would you want to unless your group is okay with it? You will be left behind.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not a power gamer? Too bad, become one to keep up or get out.
*Lights the Robin's Law book on fire*
It didn't let you get the numbers high enough and everyone knows you're supposed to get the numbers high enough. Otherwise you're a badwrongfun GM or player.
LOL. I love it. I need to save this somewhere so I can quote it frequently. Great post.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
LOL. I love it. I need to save this somewhere so I can quote it frequently. Great post.Not a power gamer? Too bad, become one to keep up or get out.
*Lights the Robin's Law book on fire*
It didn't let you get the numbers high enough and everyone knows you're supposed to get the numbers high enough. Otherwise you're a badwrongfun GM or player.
Love it as much as you want.
But I've never been more disheartened about a game until after coming to the forums. Where everything I seem to have done is wrong and I basically shouldn't be playing the game.
No wait. I've spent time on MOBA forums. Paizo might be third then.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can. You can totally build it.
Why would you want to?
Because people play for different reasons?
*dusts off copy of Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering*
Not everyone is a Power Gamer or Butt-Kicker. Some players are Specialists or Method Actors. And that's okay. Let's not discourage folks from doing what they find entertaining just because it's mechanically suboptimal.
Also, personally, I find the challenge of optimizing mechanically "weak" character concepts more fun than optimizing "strong" character concepts.
That's very great and noble and whatever.
But you're the first to bring up powergaming. Everyone else has just been talking about getting <class> with <specific exotic weapon> to work at all.
The OP isn't asking about specialists, or method acting or anything else. He wants the numbers to work with a specific weapon and a specific class. And they simply don't.
It is a mechanical question, which is why it involves a purely mechanical answer.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think Feinting is important for rogues, since that -2 to AC is big (it's the difference between Expert and Legendary). It's also a circumstance penalty so it stacks with conditional penalties (from, say Sluggish or Fatigued.) Vicious Debilitations (a level 10 feat) and several poisons can get you one of these.
It is a mechanical question, which is why it involves a purely mechanical answer.
Again. It wasn't an answer to the OP's actual question, "What else can be added to push up that crit rate?"
It is a mechanical question, which is why it involves a purely mechanical answer.Again. It wasn't an answer to the OP's actual question, "What else can be added to push up that crit rate?"
Yes it was. Nothing is the correct answer. Not an elf ancestry feat that doesn't affect katars, not multiclass fighter mastery that doesn't exist, not somehow obligating your party members to constantly buff you as opposed to doing something useful.
Magic weapons and the like which are obligatory and part of the default math anyway don't really count. And would, in any case, mechanically benefit a two handed weapon fighter more anyway, thanks to proficiency and a larger damage die:
If you apply the same outside bonuses to a larger starting number, you are much more likely to crit. It's simply how the system works.
Going for a smaller to hit bonus with a tiny damage die means you'll crit less often and for less damage. A list of things that don't work or are universal to all weapons is not a good answer to the question being asked.
If you want crits and rogues, being a fighter who multiclasses into rogue (yes, a rogue dedication does exist) gets you both. Sometimes you have to look at a problem from a different angle.
If you want crits and rogues, being a fighter who multiclasses into rogue (yes, a rogue dedication does exist) gets you both. Sometimes you have to look at a problem from a different angle.
I thought about that, but the Sneak Attack 1d6 cap would be cutting 2d6 out of damage for +3 to hit (2 from proficiency, 1 from Str being higher). 15% crit isn't a bad trade numbers wise, and there'd be access to 2w fighter feats like double slice and parry, but would also lose a lot of skills and the few rogue feats I really like. Namely the intimidating lines.
I also looked at Ranger multiclass, because the base dedication abilities were more appealing. However gimped hunt target, and the adjusted twin target thing being a single action with the multi-attack penalties doesn't really work for extra crit like fighter.
Rogues get the mobility I want on the character. The downside of both these multiclass is that he's never going to use the Medium Armor.
Frankly, since they axed signature skills, I kinda hope they axe gated proficiencies. Or else change multiclassing to instead of get flat trained on stuff, offer an increase of proficiency by one rank, up to a set value and based on level. It might make multiclassing a bit too powerful though.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The numbers don't support the assertion that Brute Rogues deal less damage than DEX Rogues, so long as both are optimized (d8 weapon on Brute, d6 on DEX, maxed-out ability score). They're pretty much even, despite losing out on a +1 bonus on 10 levels. There's also a common assertion that you'll never crit on anything below a 20 unless you're a Fighter, which is strictly not true - any class can crit, but it requires good positioning, buffs, and debuffs on enemies. Fighters are one of 4 classes that can pull it off more consistently than others, and sometimes can do so unaided, but they're simply the best at landing crits, not the only ones capable of it.
Where this build runs into issues is weapon choice - d4 weapons fall behind in damage with every die rolled, and Brute Rogues already have slightly less accuracy. The Deadly property makes them more evenly-matched than other similar weapons, but they're still a step behind. The Rogue also has no feats to support the two-weapon fighting style at the moment. Multiclassing into Monk for Flurry of Blows may help with that, but if you're looking for crits I suggest Multiclassing Fighter for Double Slice - this gives you an increased hit and crit chance on your second attack of the turn and totals damage before resistance, so your lower damage won't be hampered as much by enemy defenses.
I know I'm about to say heresy, but here goes. I think sneak attack should be completely replaced with the critical hit mechanic. Hear me out! Both systems cover the exact same situation, hitting the weak spot. So every time a rogue would typically get sneak attack, make the attack an automatic crit! Extra sneak attack die become an increased multiplier.
This way, a rogue can sometimes pull off the epic damage without a flank buddy. And the extra crit affects apply to the sneak attack stuff.
It's something that's bothered me since 3.5. Rogues focusing on crits make so much sense, why not make it the core feature? Insanity over. Pease continue your regularly scheduled program.
In 1E, sneak attack for thieves (this was before the name change) was multiplicative. You did double, triple, quadruple and so on damage, based on your level. There were no critical hits back then, but this is similar to how critical hits work now. What was the result? Naturally, thieves got the biggest weapons they could, to have a high value to multiply. Multiclass thieves/fighters doing backstab with two-handed swords? Go! Ballista? Nah, that's for the film...
Potency runes are only one of the runes you can put on a weapon. They are not mandatory. Not putting potency runes on a d4 weapon saves up resources you can use for other things.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The numbers don't support the assertion that Brute Rogues deal less damage than DEX Rogues, so long as both are optimized (d8 weapon on Brute, d6 on DEX, maxed-out ability score). They're pretty much even, despite losing out on a +1 bonus on 10 levels. There's also a common assertion that you'll never crit on anything below a 20 unless you're a Fighter, which is strictly not true - any class can crit, but it requires good positioning, buffs, and debuffs on enemies. Fighters are one of 4 classes that can pull it off more consistently than others, and sometimes can do so unaided, but they're simply the best at landing crits, not the only ones capable of it.
Where this build runs into issues is weapon choice - d4 weapons fall behind in damage with every die rolled, and Brute Rogues already have slightly less accuracy. The Deadly property makes them more evenly-matched than other similar weapons, but they're still a step behind. The Rogue also has no feats to support the two-weapon fighting style at the moment. Multiclassing into Monk for Flurry of Blows may help with that, but if you're looking for crits I suggest Multiclassing Fighter for Double Slice - this gives you an increased hit and crit chance on your second attack of the turn and totals damage before resistance, so your lower damage won't be hampered as much by enemy defenses.
Caaaan you back this up with numbers? I'll argue it's literally impossible levels 1-5 for the following reasons, assuming stats are 1-off
Dex Rogue: xd6 + xd6 + y damage (approximately)
Str Rogue: xd8 + xd6 + y+1 damage (approximately)
Early on, the Dex rogue is clearly better, as (1d6+1 = 1d8) and they have a better chance to hit. At higher levels, this might not pan out, but having a low dexterity comes with other downsides besides damage, and having a low strength really doesn't.
All my numbers come from the spreadsheets on my other threads, in this case the Hit Rates by Class spreadsheet (link goes to the thread). Agile weapons may give DEX Rogues a slight advantage when multiple Strikes can be made, but it shouldn't be a significant increase.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
All my numbers come from the spreadsheets on my other threads, in this case the Hit Rates by Class spreadsheet (link goes to the thread). Agile weapons may give DEX Rogues a slight advantage when multiple Strikes can be made, but it shouldn't be a significant increase.Caaaan you back this up with numbers? I'll argue it's literally impossible levels 1-5 for the following reasons, assuming stats are 1-off
Dex Rogue: xd6 + xd6 + y damage (approximately)
Str Rogue: xd8 + xd6 + y+1 damage (approximately)
Early on, the Dex rogue is clearly better, as (1d6+1 = 1d8) and they have a better chance to hit. At higher levels, this might not pan out, but having a low dexterity comes with other downsides besides damage, and having a low strength really doesn't.Actually looking at your numbers, it shows the Rogue (Str 2H+SA) vs (Dex 1H+SA) being approximately equal:
Levels 1-10: Strength Rogue superior 5.5/10 times (one tie)
Levels 11-20: Dexterity Rogue superior 7/10 times
This gives the edge to the Dexterity rogue, though, I'd agree, it's very close.Beyond this, however, even if it was a "tie", Dexerity is going to be a *much* more useful stat to a Rogue than Strength. Sure, you can go the Strength route, but I think it's vastly inferior, and that actually has very little to do with damage output from melee attacks (consider what happens once the enemy is at range and the Strength Rogue is forced to use a ranged weapon...).
My opinions here might change if they make heavy armor better (though there's nothing stopping a Dex based rogue from wearing it if they have proficiency), or have Strength matter for more than carrying capacity and Athletics checks...
EDIT: Note that I'm assuming you don't consider dogslicer, which is +1-3 damage per flat-footed hit vs rapier, and almost definitely better damage on the average for an optimized build, though, in fairness, niche in that only goblins can get it easily.
Yeah, they're about equal. Which means the STR build doesn't deal significantly less damage than the DEX build (which was my original argument). And it's still entirely possible to play a Brute Rogue with 18 DEX, though I would personally swap one of the DEX boosts with a CON boost or something instead - 16-16-14-10-12-10 on a Human is pretty decent, for instance. The STR build doesn't have to have lower DEX until Level 15, and Medium or Heavy Armor is entirely optional.
The main thing the brute rogue misses out on is having Strength as a convenient dump stat. That does make him better at Athletics - note that cat burglars in PF2 are brute rogues, not finesse rogues. :o
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know I'm about to say heresy, but here goes. I think sneak attack should be completely replaced with the critical hit mechanic. Hear me out! Both systems cover the exact same situation, hitting the weak spot. So every time a rogue would typically get sneak attack, make the attack an automatic crit! Extra sneak attack die become an increased multiplier.
This way, a rogue can sometimes pull off the epic damage without a flank buddy. And the extra crit affects apply to the sneak attack stuff.
It's something that's bothered me since 3.5. Rogues focusing on crits make so much sense, why not make it the core feature? Insanity over. Pease continue your regularly scheduled program.
I really really like this idea conceptually, but the scaling damage dice of magic weapons in PF2 really necessitate rogues getting bonus damage dice with their sneak attacks or else the critical hits are going to just feel like fighters regular hits. Personally, I would rather have seen more cool stuff that a rogue could do when the critical hit, like inflict harmful conditions or even significant bleed damage, to make the rogue different from the fighter, but the way they have the class structured, I think the bonus damage die is more important than a hit bonus.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
LOL. I love it. I need to save this somewhere so I can quote it frequently. Great post.Not a power gamer? Too bad, become one to keep up or get out.
*Lights the Robin's Law book on fire*
It didn't let you get the numbers high enough and everyone knows you're supposed to get the numbers high enough. Otherwise you're a badwrongfun GM or player.
Love it as much as you want.
But I've never been more disheartened about a game until after coming to the forums. Where everything I seem to have done is wrong and I basically shouldn't be playing the game.
No wait. I've spent time on MOBA forums. Paizo might be third then.
I see this quite a bit, and my answer is always "well don't go to the forums, then".
If your self-worth is so wrapped up in a TTRPG character that learning that the mechanics of what you have built causes you an existential crisis, then don't go learn the details.
It always reminds me of the mathematician played by Stellan Skarsgård in that 'Good Will Hunting' movie. His entire ego is built upon being a math prodigy, and his whole world is shattered by the realization that someone out there is not just better/smarter than he is, but is so by an order of magnitude that he never realized existed. Even though Will Hunting's very existence doesn't invalidate his own in any way, he is still crushed.
The main thing the brute rogue misses out on is having Strength as a convenient dump stat. That does make him better at Athletics - note that cat burglars in PF2 are brute rogues, not finesse rogues. :o
Of course, more STR also means more Bulk carried, slightly-better damage on Composite bows, access to the Barbarian Multiclass, better combat maneuvers via Athletics, and as a Brute you can get critical specializations too. I do wish there was more variety on simple d8 weapons, though, since you lose damage on anything lower.
Definitely going to rebuild my half-orc "Rogue" later as a Brute Rogue / MC Barbarian with Rage. Yell "SNEAK ATTACK!" to Demoralize and poke enemies with a Longspear for easier flanking.
LOL. I love it. I need to save this somewhere so I can quote it frequently. Great post.Not a power gamer? Too bad, become one to keep up or get out.
*Lights the Robin's Law book on fire*
It didn't let you get the numbers high enough and everyone knows you're supposed to get the numbers high enough. Otherwise you're a badwrongfun GM or player.
Love it as much as you want.
But I've never been more disheartened about a game until after coming to the forums. Where everything I seem to have done is wrong and I basically shouldn't be playing the game.
No wait. I've spent time on MOBA forums. Paizo might be third then.
I see this quite a bit, and my answer is always "well don't go to the forums, then".
If your self-worth is so wrapped up in a TTRPG character that learning that the mechanics of what you have built causes you an existential crisis, then don't go learn the details.
It always reminds me of the mathematician played by Stellan Skarsgård in that 'Good Will Hunting' movie. His entire ego is built upon being a math prodigy, and his whole world is shattered by the realization that someone out there is not just better/smarter than he is, but is so by an order of magnitude that he never realized existed. Even though Will Hunting's very existence doesn't invalidate his own in any way, he is still crushed.
So I should just leave the community, because the community doesn't want me. Okay. Have fun telling that to new players. Always wondered why I keep seeing the same people, no one ELSE signs up.
I wouldn't say it causes me existential crisis. But when people follow the Meta and the Numbers to a degree I haven't seen outside of Mobas and MMOs, I question if we are playing the same game. I assume tabletop games aren't about chasing the numbers all day but I guess the community doesn't want me here since I don't do that.
I like playing the game, I like coming up with odd builds, I like making characters. But if you if you enjoy making walking talking stat blocks, more power to you. But heck if this community doesn't take that as the gospel truth and only way to play.
But hey, I'm not a min maxer so what do I know. You got a nice example of someone who's self worth is tied up in getting to +54 on a swing and tells everyone to play God Wizard because it's the only class worth playing?
LOL. I love it. I need to save this somewhere so I can quote it frequently. Great post.Not a power gamer? Too bad, become one to keep up or get out.
*Lights the Robin's Law book on fire*
It didn't let you get the numbers high enough and everyone knows you're supposed to get the numbers high enough. Otherwise you're a badwrongfun GM or player.
Love it as much as you want.
But I've never been more disheartened about a game until after coming to the forums. Where everything I seem to have done is wrong and I basically shouldn't be playing the game.
No wait. I've spent time on MOBA forums. Paizo might be third then.
I see this quite a bit, and my answer is always "well don't go to the forums, then".
If your self-worth is so wrapped up in a TTRPG character that learning that the mechanics of what you have built causes you an existential crisis, then don't go learn the details.
It always reminds me of the mathematician played by Stellan Skarsgård in that 'Good Will Hunting' movie. His entire ego is built upon being a math prodigy, and his whole world is shattered by the realization that someone out there is not just better/smarter than he is, but is so by an order of magnitude that he never realized existed. Even though Will Hunting's very existence doesn't invalidate his own in any way, he is still crushed.
So I should just leave the community, because the community doesn't want me. Okay. Have fun telling that to new players. Always wondered why I keep seeing the same people, no one ELSE signs up.
I wouldn't say it causes me existential crisis. But when people follow the Meta and the Numbers to a degree I haven't seen outside of Mobas and MMOs, I question if we are playing the same game. I assume tabletop games aren't about chasing the numbers all day but I guess the community doesn't want me here since I don't do that.
I like playing the game, I...
I never said nor would I say "leave the community", the message was more one along the lines of "stop letting other people and their unasked for opinions get you down."
If going to certain sections of the forums, or certain forums, disheartens you or lessens the fun you have with the game, don't to those places. If playing with certain people makes playing the game a chore, don't play with those people.
The fact that optimizers/min-maxers/whatevers exist only has an impact on your fun if:
A. you allow them to do so, in the case of online persons
B. they are rude twits and you are too nice to tell them off, if in person
Uhmmm going monk dedication and getting ki strike+ghost strike is pretty nice. Also if you are human maybe you can get another dedication to get true strike as a spell. True strike+ki strike+ghost strike does give a pretty nice crit/hit chance.
I don't think a rogue will work well with so many dedications and similar things, i would probably go for a monk, multiclass rogue later on be human so i can get a extra dedication level 9, spells at level 10 and extra level 1 slot to cast true strike more xD
