Resonance, charisma, dump stats in general

[Telefax]

So, my group violently refuse to play healers, which has forced me to look at this playtest in a certain way (i just need a short rest mechanic), but i dont actually hate the resonance idea. having a mechanic to govern item uses/day is pretty neato, but i think just tying it to level is enough.

I know a lot of people dont think cha/int should be dump stats, but lets be real. You cant max every stat, regardless of stat generation method, and most spellcasters can safely dump strength, since it really does not matter much for a spellcaster.
Since heavy armor unlike 5th ed require you to have at least a positive dex (I actually liked this in 4th and 5th ed dnd, cuts down on MAD), martials need all three physical stats, so having a dump stat somewhere in the mental area is pretty much a must, and i'd rather it did not screw me over. I personally dont like to dump either cha or int because i feel it hinders my rp, but it should be okay to dump them. As long as the game has enough strong charisma using classes, someone will want be the party face anyways, and good rp can come even with a low mod.

[Zman0]

There isn't too much of a need to have a true dump stat anymore, at least not in the traditional sense beyond 1st level. Stat generation makes it very easy to avoid having any negatives. And with four ability boosts each level and diminishing returns after 18 you can end up with a 22, 18, 18, 16, 16, 16 at 20th level before your one ability item raising your optimized stat to 24. A single true dump stat gives you 22, 18, 18, 18, 18, 12 if you avoid paying penalties double penalty to hit 20s.

I like for every stat to be useful making for hard choices in how a character chooses their stat distribution. Making it harder to dump Cha is ok with me. I do wish Int had a bit more going for it, some other bonuses beyond the extra skill and language at 14.

If you're looking for a short rest mechanic, you can try my hero point adaptation Heroic Recovery. I also tweak Hero Points, consumables, and add a minimum for calculating resonance in there. Located Here

[kaisc006]

Wow being able to come out with 22 18 18 16 16 16 is reason enough not to play pf 2e :(

[graystone]

kaisc006 wrote:

Wow being able to come out with 22 18 18 16 16 16 is reason enough not to play pf 2e :(

What level is that exactly? If it's first, I don't think you'd see any complaints. If it's 20th, I'm not sure why anyone should care [the gamer is over]. And you seem to miss the point that the game is built around your character NEEDING a maxed out stat + skill item + max skill increases + Skill feats to hit 50% success...

[PossibleCabbage]

I wonder if "it's a 10 level commitment to increase a secondary stat mod past +4" causing people to spread their stat boosts around so everybody ends up with a bunch of 18s and 16s would be a reason to let a 15th level stat boost increase a stat from 20 to 22.

[Fluff]

kaisc006 wrote:

Wow being able to come out with 22 18 18 16 16 16 is reason enough not to play pf 2e :(

...yup.

You can't really be bad at anything.

Unfortunately you're defined by what you are not as much as what you are.

My strength 14, charisma 18 paladin wont' be happening in PF2.

[Nathan Hartshorn]

Zman0 wrote:

And with four ability boosts each level and diminishing returns after 18 you can end up with a 22, 18, 18, 16, 16, 16 at 20th level before your one ability item raising your optimized stat to 24.

Each level? Am I misreading that? That should be every 5 levels, not each level.

[Zman0]

Fluff wrote:

kaisc006 wrote:

Wow being able to come out with 22 18 18 16 16 16 is reason enough not to play pf 2e :(

...yup.

You can't really be bad at anything.

Unfortunately you're defined by what you are not as much as what you are.

My strength 14, charisma 18 paladin wont' be happening in PF2.

You can put stats to 20, which lowers your net modifiers by a total of +2. So, you could end up with 22, 20, 20, 16, 14, 14 or 22, 20, 20, 18, 14, 12. So, you can be significantly worse at somethings if you want to. But, you can also distribute more evenly with 18 and below abilities and maximize your total modifier.

I guess you can't start with a Str 14 Cha 18 Paladin. You could start with a 16, 16.

[Zman0]

Nathan Hartshorn wrote:

Zman0 wrote:

And with four ability boosts each level and diminishing returns after 18 you can end up with a 22, 18, 18, 16, 16, 16 at 20th level before your one ability item raising your optimized stat to 24.

Each level? Am I misreading that? That should be every 5 levels, not each level.

That should read "each level you receive ability boosts". Yes, you only get them at 5, 10, 15, 20.

[pjrogers]

Eliminating dump stats is one of the few things that I like about PF2e and is something which could easily be incorporated into a more evolutionary PF2e based on 3.5/PF1e. I've come to the conclusion that most people dump some stats in order to push others higher, and they then rarely RP or otherwise incorporate the effect of the dumped stats into how they play their character. I'll admit that I've been guilty of this and am generally trying to avoid doing this whenever possible.

[Dreamtime2k9]

Telefax wrote:

I know a lot of people dont think cha/int should be dump stats, but lets be real. You cant max every stat, regardless of stat generation method, and most spellcasters can safely dump strength, since it really does not matter much for a spellcaster.

I personally don't think they should be dump stats, more or less the same reason i don't feel like dump stats should be a thing.

I believe they should be a choice with every choice providing opportunity for an alternate way of contributing to a character/group. This is my idealistic viewpoint though as currently, its not really the case.

I think strength and charisma to a degree will be dumped less now with resonance and bulk(encumbered is nasty), but intelligence feels very lackluster if you don't require it for your class/multiclass purely as it doesn't really do enough presently compared to other stats. An extra skill at trained(not qualifying you for most interesting skill feats as skill increases beyond trained is what matters.) and an extra language for having a starting score of 14 is not really anything incentivising to write home about after all; at least in the average game. The skill feats for mental rolls also appear to be weaker and more uncommonly relevant in general which doesn't really help.

The biggest issue for any d&d system besides 5e where they tried to adress this somewhat by having 6 saving throws instead of 3, is that the stats that provide saving throws are more valuable than others. If those then also provide your defensive stats(Dex matters for AC) and initiative(Wisdom or stealth are the common ones utilised from what i've seen) aswell as govern a bunch of useful and relevant skills(Acrobatics, stealth and thievery are all pretty strong with the skill feats) where as the others are less commonly used in practice besides the potential athletics.

It creates the issue that the system resolved around the big 3 stats where as the others could be raised mildly and still feel perfectly fine for more combat oriented players.

Combine that with the proficiency system where adding bonusses based on level, resulting in it being the primairy contributor to modifiers across the board, it makes dumping them feel less punishing despite the system math requiring you to be optimized for succeeding routine skill checks more than 50% of the time anyway.

In the past, we had classes designed around utilising intelligence(Duelist comes to mind) and charisma(paladin in particular) to enhance defensive qualities which made them options for builds that wished to take an alternate route to help with that while still getting good skill value. PF2 doesn't have that presently, and i believe will result in a lot of people gaining the same mindset as your players as it stands.