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I support this request as well.
I read other threads about it before reaching the sections of the book where temperatures came up and kind of waved it off as a non-issue.
However on actually getting to those sections a while later I did find it very difficult to understand instantly.
If it could be possible to list temperatures in both formats I think everyone who uses it as the primary for their country would very much appreciate it.
If I remember correctly the page already has some information within brackets following the temperatures, so it might not read well if you used them. Maybe a simple xF/xC if that's not too ugly for print?
Please provide temperatures in degrees of Celsius as well. I would rather not have to do the conversions each time when I reference the rules.
With those rules coming up pretty infrequently, it doesn't seem very onerous to convert. In fact, I think EVERYTHING related to temp is on 341 in the temperate section. I think a post-it note with the conversions is a viable long term solution that doesn't involve adding more numbers to the book.
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Temperature isn't a big bother, but measurements could be.
While I am sure only the English version of the books will retain Imperial measurements, as it was in all D&D editions and in Path1, a dual-measurement English version would be good for that large minority of english speakers who live outside the US / Liberia / Myanmar.
It's probably not enough of a dealbreaker to cause a double printing, but nice to have side-by-side.
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Volumes? How much is 3 cubic feet of water?
Volumes? How much is 3 cubic feet of water?
A slightly emptied metric cube?
5ft cube = 1,5m cube, or at least that's the classic 3.x/P1/5e conversion.And yes, "I take a 1,5m step" actually rolls of the tongue well in some languages :)
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I support the request.
I don't have a problem converting miles, feet, inches and pounds.
Volumes are harder and stuff like ounces or gallons is just annoying.
But temperatures are nearly impossible to convert if you haven't memorized some key values.
There is no need for memorization or conversion of anything other than the cut off points.
32, 12, -20, -80 for cold
95, 105, 115, 140 for heat
As I mentioned, a post-it note with those 8 conversions is all you need to figure out temps for the game.
My concept of feet and miles is entirely based on playing Pathfinder. What's 5 ft square? It's the space a medium-sized creature occupies! What's a mile? It's how far a human travels in 20 minutes when walking at a normal pace!
As for the question of "what's 3 cubic feet of water?", that's actually very easy to do, just divide by the area that the water is contained in and you have the height of the water level. So if your 3 cubic feet of water are contained within a 5x5 foot square, you have 3 / 25 = 0.12 feet high.
Volumes? How much is 3 cubic feet of water?A slightly emptied metric cube?
Nope. It's eight point four percent of a one metre cube.
5ft cube = 1,5m cube, or at least that's the classic 3.x/P1/5e conversion.
But a 5ft cube is 125 cubic feet.
That's why spells like Stone Shape that affect a number of cubic feet aren't as powerful as some people think.
Ah, i was thinking a 3ft-cube rather than 3 1ft-cubes.
Rookie mistake.
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Volumes? How much is 3 cubic feet of water?
One of my player actually ranted pretty angrily when the Cleric red the Purify Water spell :S
It wouldn't take much time and space to put the metric equivalent of measurements, temperatures and volumes in the core Rulebook. And that would be a nice move for all non-American players. Why not do it ?
EDIT : Plus it would allow use to standardize things a bit. I know that here in France, for Pathfinder, we say 5 feet = 1.5m, while in some other countries, 5 feet = 2m.
Who does 5ft=2m?
I'm guessing it's a linguistic thing more than anything. Whatever sounds/flows better in words more than in actual numbers.
Who does 5ft=2m?
This has been discussed in another thread .
I don't want to have post-it notes when its easy to add a few more numbers to the text.There is no need for memorization or conversion of anything other than the cut off points.
32, 12, -20, -80 for cold
95, 105, 115, 140 for heatAs I mentioned, a post-it note with those 8 conversions is all you need to figure out temps for the game.
Well that's totally up to you but I don't like to write in my book but if you want to add those number into your book like that, go for it.
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Graystone : would it really be a problem if those conversions were added ? Would it prevent you from playing ? If not, would it slow down your games ?
Converting values on the fly tends to slow down my games. At least you can do it rather quickly after some years for foot to meters (and even like that it takes me some time, I'm not really good at mental calculation), but you always need to Google it for temperature because Farenheit and Celsius have no easy translation. It's even worse when you have to translate on the fly non-translated scenarios.
I think reading/ignoring two words takes less time that mentaly calculating.
Graystone : would it really be a problem if those conversions were added ?
Yes.
Would it prevent you from playing ? If not, would it slow down your games ?
There is limited space in the book. As such, something else has to be taken out to fit this in. What do you want removed to 'fix' an 'issue' that at best warrants a post-it note solution.
EDIT: and before someone say 'but it's JUST 8 temps' it wouldn't end there. If you convert some things to metric, the push will be there to convert other things too. You add up every distance converted and you'll see the pages add up.
Converting values on the fly tends to slow down my games.
There is LITERALLY no need to do this: you convert the 8 temperature boundaries one time and never have to look back.
32, 12, -20, -80 for cold
95, 105, 115, 140 for heat
0, -11, -29, -62
35, 41, 46, 60
You should never need an exact temp or it's exact conversion as it's meaningless as long as you know what range if falls under. Pick a temp. Let's say an adventure says its severe heat. That means it's 105 to 114 F which means it's 41 to 46 C from the above post it note you can put in the section you needed to look for what severe heat does. No on the fly conversions.
But lets say an adventure for some reason just gives a temp so you go to the temp section to find out what it does: lets say -35 F. The section says that's extreme cold and the post it says it's between -29 and -61 but the exact number is meaningless to the rules so pick one as it doesn't matter: you could even use the same number [-35] if you wanted as it doesn't matter that the exact number would have been -37.
EDIT: I just want to say I understand it can be a pain as I convert the other way for some games but I also understand the realities of book space and human tendencies [if temps are converted why isn't x converted?]. I don't think it's feasible and the solution is much less onerous that 'fixing' it.
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You know, I am actually working on adding conversions after every imperial metrics in my PDF file. I am currently in the middle of the barbarian chapter and it did not take more space (thanks to all those non-full lines at the end of each paragraph). I don't think you really need to cut out other content to make some space for this : you just have to add 5 character top after every measure...
Who does 5ft=2m?This has been discussed in another thread .
Oh true, I did.
I suppose it does come up...| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
and before someone say 'but it's JUST 8 temps' it wouldn't end there. If you convert some things to metric, the push will be there to convert other things too.
Ah, the slippery slope. If you do the right thing once, people might expect you to do the right thing every time. Before you know it, the rulebook might be literally a whole page longer, when everyone knows that a rulebook can only be 437 pages long, not 438 pages long.
Paizo: inclusive of everyone except the 95% of people who prefer metric.
I don't think we are 95% of people who prefer metric (in my opinion we probably are a minority), but I do think adding 1 page to the core rulebook is not that big of a deal =P I'm not even sure you actually have to add 1 page. I'll keep on updating my PDF with metric values, and I'll tell you the result once I'm done.
For the parrallel, it'll take less space than the page references you can see everywhere in the book. And as for myself, I don't need page references : I have the PDF with a solid research option. It's just for people with the physical copy. Do I care ? No. I think it's cool for people with physical copy, it's easier for them. As for me, I just ignore it.
I think the vast majority doesn't care about meters and Celsius the same way I don't care about page references. We are a minority of people who want the metric system, and in the same way, I think there is a minority of person who are completely against adding the metric system, granted it doesn't add more than 1 page and doesn't take the space needed for other features.
I think he was referring to the fact that US Americans are just a small minority of the audience worldwide (300 mils? Just Europe makes twice that), and they're the only ones who use Imperial.
That said, a large amount of the english-speaking audience is from the US. About 3/4 of the estimated total, if I'm vaguely right.
Adding one line of text is not a big effort and is definitely worth it, but reprinting is silly.
I know, I know. That's why I said I don't think we are 95% of people in favor of metric system. Maybe I should have added "in Paizo's target audience" ^^
They don't need to reprint anything. They won't reprint the playtest book, for obvious reasons. As for the final book, if they directly put the metric values, those will be in the first printing =)
"Paizo's target audience"
It's rarely a good idea to target only your existing audience.
Imagine some executive in 1980 saying "Most of our market is nerdy white heterosexual male North American teenagers, so we should only cater to their tastes and ignore everyone else." It would become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If you do the right thing once, people might expect you to do the right thing every time.
Right thing? I don't see it as a right/wrong issue but one of logistics and page count.
Before you know it, the rulebook might be literally a whole page longer
For me, if they are going to add "a whole page", I want it to be a page that has some use to me and metric conversions aren't useful to me. If I have the option of getting a dozen new spells or items or feats or pretty much anything else, I'm voting for that over metric.
when everyone knows that a rulebook can only be 437 pages long, not 438 pages long.
They know how many pages they can use and I see no reason to cut into universally useful info for info with a niche audience.
Paizo: inclusive of everyone except the 95% of people who prefer metric.
*shrug* I'm not going to lose sleep over it. We're talking about people that are english speakers that use metric and NOT all metric users as translated book translate measurements.
I do think adding 1 page to the core rulebook is not that big of a deal =P
The cost jumps dramatically once they hit an arbitrary page count from what I understand. So there is a practical limit to pages available and as I said above, with a limited number of pages available, I'm voting for a page that is useful for the most people possible. IMO, that's not metric conversions.
I'm not even sure you actually have to add 1 page. I'll keep on updating my PDF with metric values, and I'll tell you the result once I'm done.
We aren't seeing the whole thing as we've been told there will be additional content, images and other things. As such, even if it wouldn't add a page in the playtest, that's not a meaningful thing to know when it's not representative of the rule book we'll see after the playtest.
For the parrallel, it'll take less space than the page references you can see everywhere in the book.
Those can actually be useful to anyone using the book unlike metric.
And as for myself, I don't need page references : I have the PDF with a solid research option. It's just for people with the physical copy.
Not really. I know I often use the page references even though there is a search as there are times where the search will find a multitude of instances of the word/phrase you're looking for while the page number will get you there easier. Or you have an instance where the book has different ways of using a phrase: for instance, some books list two weapons fighting and some list two-weapon fighting and some list both which can muck things up. Point is, the reference page entries could be useful to everyone.
I think the vast majority doesn't care about meters and Celsius the same way I don't care about page references.
Honestly, a lot of americans get annoyed with efforts to get them to convert to metric. As such, I think more people would dislike seeing metric in their pathfinder than there are metric uses that'd be happy to see the conversions.
I think there is a minority of person who are completely against adding the metric system, granted it doesn't add more than 1 page and doesn't take the space needed for other features.
I think you'd be surprised. I play rifts sometimes and it has dual measurements and there are plenty of people I've games with that grumble everytime they see something in metric and go out of their way to delete the measurements from their abilities on those sheets. Myself, I find a lot of space saved on my sheets if I get rid of all the metric.
So you want things useful to you and don't want things that would be useful to others ? Welp... =/
And don't worry. Not adding a page for metric measurements does not mean you will have an extra page of feats ;) You want more space for more content ? Advocate for less pictures. Those half-page pictures don't add much and are clearly not here to take unused space (unlike the sketched portraits who seem to fit where they are).
I also want to say that translated books are, in fact, pretty rare. I just know of two countries translating them : Brazil, and France (I would be curious to know if other countries translate them too). I can't speak for Brazil, but here in France we only have the most popular rulebooks translated (and not all of them - still waiting for Ultimate Intrigue and Horror Adventures...) and bestiaries, some lore books (mostly regional companions that work with APs) and something like half the APs. All this more than a year after their american release. I actually had to play Tomb of the Everflame (the scenario used for the Glasscanon preview), Guardians of Dragonfall, The Harrowing and Strange Aeons in English.
So you want things useful to you and don't want things that would be useful to others ? Welp... =/
Potentially useful to EVERYONE that picks up the book vs something that's useful to a very small niche market? Yes, that is exactly what I want. No matter how good your PDF search function is, a simple grammatical error means you might need a page reference for instance. More rules content is useful to everyone too.
Advocate for less pictures. Those half-page pictures don't add much and are clearly not here to take unused space (unlike the sketched portraits who seem to fit where they are).
That would be tilting at windmills IMO. I think people are far more passionate about the pictures than measurement units. That and they DO serve a purpose in breaking up walls of text.
I also want to say that translated books are
I only know what others have told me, that the translated books use metric units. other than that, I don't know much about them.
[ooc]Note
As I mentioned, a count here is pretty meaningless to the final version once new content is added, new shiny pictures take up more real estate and other factors shift lines, paragraphs and pages around. As I mentioned, I play in a game that has dual measurements and they take up a surprising amount of space when you actually take note of it.
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I also want to say that translated books are, in fact, pretty rare. I just know of two countries translating them : Brazil, and France (I would be curious to know if other countries translate them too)
Italy.
English is... poorly taught, at best. Some improvements in recent years, but still not something that I'd rely on, most of which is aimed at tourist areas / hospitality industry.On the plus side, having the NPCs speeches already in the language you'll read them in is handy. While I am not sure how many splats got translated (I moved country and there's no point in me reading native material), I do remember playing several APs that were completely translated years ago, such as L'Ascesa dei Signori delle Rune and Alba dei Re.
Oh, and there was a pretty big amount of noise in my feed when WotC announced the D&D5 Italian edition. Sold out within the weekend at release.
You just don't sell there until you have the translation.
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I live in America, but work in science and prefer metric. :p It would be trivial to add and I don't think it would even increase the page count. There's so much space at the end of so many lines / paragraphs. All of the ranged weapons have space in the table for a meters conversion. Skimming through the magic chapter, I don't think I see anywhere that would bloat length to add the conversions.
Besides, it helps make the game accessible for more people. It's a worthy addition even if it did end up adding a page.
I live in America, but work in science and prefer metric. :p It would be trivial to add and I don't think it would even increase the page count. There's so much space at the end of so many lines / paragraphs. All of the ranged weapons have space in the table for a meters conversion. Skimming through the magic chapter, I don't think I see anywhere that would bloat length to add the conversions.
Besides, it helps make the game accessible for more people. It's a worthy addition even if it did end up adding a page.
I think even if it could be added without changing page count I wouldn't be for it. Dual measurements seem... cluttered I guess and it's something I edit out if I can.
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Not all of us in the US prefer imperial. I'd love to see metric units in PF2.
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Honestly, a lot of americans get annoyed with efforts to get them to convert to metric. As such, I think more people would dislike seeing metric in their pathfinder than there are metric uses that'd be happy to see the conversions.
That is certainly the lamest excuse presented so far.
Honestly, I find C to F (and back) is the one really easy conversion to do in your head.
Since it's just F = 1.8*c+32, or C= (F-32)*(5/9)
For most normal temperatures "double it and add 30" or "subtract 30 then divide by 2" are pretty close.
Honestly, a lot of americans get annoyed with efforts to get them to convert to metric. As such, I think more people would dislike seeing metric in their pathfinder than there are metric uses that'd be happy to see the conversions.That is certainly the lamest excuse presented so far.
LOL I've had people look through a rule book, get to metric measurements and put the book down saying 'I'm not playing this, I'm tired of people trying to make me use metric.' I deal with americans all the time and they can be surprisingly stubborn. ;)
Honestly, I find C to F (and back) is the one really easy conversion to do in your head.
Since it's just F = 1.8*c+32, or C= (F-32)*(5/9)
For most normal temperatures "double it and add 30" or "subtract 30 then divide by 2" are pretty close.
*shrug* I understand not everyone does mental math as well as I can so I try not to assume the ability in others. SO while I agree it's easy, I'm sure others would disagree. The rough guestimate is useful though.
When I first moved country I ended up GMing in English and I had the group run metric on everything, because that’s what I could do off the top of my head when people had questions.
“How far can humans move in one action?” “9m”. “How big is a fireball?” “6m radius explosion.” “How far can i contact my Familiar?” “1.5km”.
People found it weird at first because it was off with the rulebook, but soon enough it came natural to everyone, because they could relate it to real world objects and distances.
(Eventually I had to give in to the book however, but it was surprisingly easy for them to pick up in the meantime)
(Eventually I had to give in to the book however, but it was surprisingly easy for them to pick up in the meantime)
Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of people that don't mind metric or might even prefer it. There is also a lot of people that dislike change a LOT. Some people are still salty that the south lost the war let alone new fangled 'ferner' measurement... ;)
It feels like for most things for which precision matters we can use game mechanical concepts like "Squares" and "Bulk" and when precision doesn't really matter (like overland travel) we can just use any units we want without worrying if the conversion is accurate; e.g. if the necromancer's castle is 100km away instead of 50 miles that's not a big deal even though it's wrong.
For temperature it seems like it literally does not matter, for game purposes, what the exact number is so much as "what ~20 degree band" it falls in.
It feels like for most things for which precision matters we can use game mechanical concepts like "Squares" and "Bulk" and when precision doesn't really matter (like overland travel) we can just use any units we want without worrying if the conversion is accurate; e.g. if the necromancer's castle is 100km away instead of 50 miles that's not a big deal even though it's wrong.
I wouldn't mind this if there was an actual conversion: bulk bothers me because it varies so much. If there was a default number for times you wanted precision, most of my issues with bulk go away.
For temperature it seems like it literally does not matter, for game purposes, what the exact number is so much as "what ~20 degree band" it falls in.
I can agree: the game doesn't care what the exact temp is. It's just Mild, Severe, Extreme, Extreme+.
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(Eventually I had to give in to the book however, but it was surprisingly easy for them to pick up in the meantime)Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of people that don't mind metric or might even prefer it. There is also a lot of people that dislike change a LOT. Some people are still salty that the south lost the war let alone new fangled 'ferner' measurement... ;)
I’m not located in the US, so while English might be the main language, we do not use feets and inches much outside of fantasy settings.
That probably explains why meters were so easy.
(Eventually I had to give in to the book however, but it was surprisingly easy for them to pick up in the meantime)Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of people that don't mind metric or might even prefer it. There is also a lot of people that dislike change a LOT. Some people are still salty that the south lost the war let alone new fangled 'ferner' measurement... ;)I’m not located in the US, so while English might be the main language, we do not use feets and inches much outside of fantasy settings.
That probably explains why meters were so easy.
*Nods* Yep, there is that and you have some americans that use metric for their job/work and therefore don't see it as a change. A lot though still uses things like centum weight, board-foot, peck, gill, slug, langleys or guage.
I have no idea what any of that is and I am grateful of being blessed with the luck of needing only one system.
I have no idea what any of that is and I am grateful of being blessed with the luck of needing only one system.
LOL I've used them all at one point. And countries often retain non-metric units: for instance, England still uses stones and long tons.
centum weight = 1/20th a short ton or 100 pounds
board-foot = volume unit for lumber
peck = volume unit used for produce
gill = liquid unit used mostly in mixed drinks
slug = unit of accelerated mass [remember 1 blob equals 12 slugs]
langleys = unit of heat from solar radiation
gauge = thickness of metal sheets