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Some of you might have seen my previous posts on alchemists where I advocate a druid-like approach to alchemist feats and a less bomb-funneled theme for the class. Some might even have seen my last thread on Sorcerer's chassis and direction. This is not like that.
Like with Sorcerer, I believe Alchemist suffers a chassis issue and a pigeonholing issue - currently, you have to be a bomber and you have to gain some mutagen abilities, but those abilities do not shine. A bomb is currently slightly stronger than a cantrip, but uses your main resource and is less precise. It's like saying your 9th level spells can be overpowered by a fighter's longsword. It doesn't feel very good. (as a side note - bombs are also slower, less accurate, and less damaging than a fighter's longsword)
Unlike with Sorcerer, I intend to present a variant. it's not complete, it's not full, it's not 1 to 20, but it's a good outline of the first few levels and shows (hopefully) the path I believe would lead to a healthy, effective, satisfying alchemist.
Firstly, I will present what I would change about alchemy in general.
Then, I will show what I think should be changed about alchemist's features.
Finally, I will post some reviewed version of alchemist's 1st level feats - while I am actually rewriting the whole thing for a friend, I am not as convinced about some of my 4th level feats and beyond, so I will only describe them with a rough outline.
Put your safety glasses on, turn on your bunsen, and do not place your lab notes on your work bench 'cause i've done that once and there were acid droplets. We're about to begin.
Alchemical Items
-Bombs now come in Minor (lv1), Lesser (lv4), Regular (lv8), Greater (lv12), True (lv16) versions. Each version deals 1 damage die, persistent damage and splash damage more than the previous as appropriate for its entry, and the DCs for their effects (when applicable) are 15, 20, 25, 30, 35.
This is made to follow a similar outline as the Elixirs of Life. Really, there is no reason why they should follow two different forms, and either Alchemists enhance all their crafts, or crafts can be made to improve. I chose the latter because it allows higher level non-alchemists (or non-bombers) to benefit from alchemy, and it frees up class features to be used for more general purposes.
Funnily enough, the DC is based off what you would get by having to save against 10+Crafting modifier for a maxed out alchemist at the corresponding levels... Turns out it's multiples of 5. Must be fate.
-Additionaly, add the following lv20 Uncommon alchemical formulas:
-Cold Comfort (lv20 Uncommon) [alchemical, bomb, cold, consumable, splash]. Cold Comfort deals 6d4 cold damage, 6 cold splash damage, and any creature damaged by it becomes hampered 10 until the end of its next turn.
-Green Inferno (lv20 Uncommon) [alchemical, bomb, consumable, fire, splash]. The Green Inferno deals 6d8 fire damage, 6 persistent fire damage, and 6 fire splash damage. A creature hit by the Green Inferno cannot automatically extinguish the flames, which burn under water and even when buried. An attempt that would normally remove the fire can reduce the flat check DC to 15.
-Skyfall Rock (lv20 Uncommon) [alchemical, bomb, consumable, sonic, splash]. The Skyfall Rock deals 6d4 sonic damage and 6 sonic splash damage, and each creature within 30ft of the space in which the rock exploded must succeed at a DC40 Fortitude save or be deafened until the end of its next turn.
-The Dip (lv20 Uncommon) [acid, alchemical, bomb, consumable, splash]. The Dip deals 6d4 persistent acid damage and 6 acid splash damage. A creature hit by the Dip is also Frightened 1 as long as the damage persists.
Capstone items? The Big Booms? These items take the place of the lv20 bomb improvement, and add a little extra kick on top of the damage. Hopefully they sound thematic enough. Bonus points if you catch all the little references.
-Infused trait makes an item cost no resonance and remains potent for no longer than 8 hours.
I think everyone knows by now that Alchemist forcing other people to spend resonance is annoying. The 8hr change, however, is new - and it's because of what I did with Advanced Alchemy, right below this line.
Class Features
-Lv1- Advanced Alchemy: You are automatically Trained in Alchemy. You also gain the Alchemical Crafting feat (see page 162) and the four additional common 1st-level alchemical formulas that feat grants. The list of alchemical items begins on page 360. You can use this feat to create common alchemical items as long as you have their formulas in your formula book, though their power is fleeting. You can create these items in two different ways, as described below. An alchemical item you create this way has the infused trait. First, by spending 10 minutes tinkering with your alchemist’s tools, you can create items for which you have the formulas. Creating items in this way requires spending 1 Resonance Point, and all the items gain the infused trait. You can create a number of items up to your Intelligence modifier. You don’t need to attempt a Crafting check to do this, and you ignore the number of days typically required to create the items and any requirements of alchemical reagents. You can’t overspend Resonance Points to create infused items in this way, and you can never have more infused items than your Intelligence modifier. If you try to craft more, the oldest you crafted become inert and grant no effects. Second, you can create alchemical items with the Quick Alchemy action, described below.
Yep, this is actually the whole extended paragraph, I know. I did say i'm homebrewing. Home-alchemying. Whatever. The idea here, pioneered by AlchemicGenius, is to bring alchemist away from being a pretend caster with a morning preparation and closer to a versatile, quick-to-adapt gadgeteer. By giving alchemist the ability to create small batches in short times we grant alchemist the ability to improvise, adapt, and assist. And while the items themselves lose potency if more are crafted, their effects remain, allowing you to potentially spend 20 minutes to first buff your party and then prepare more... if the GM gives you the time, that is.
-Quick Alchemy [A] [Alchemist, quick alchemy]
Cost 1 Resonance Point.
Requirements You must have alchemist’s tools (see page 184), the formula of the alchemical item you’re creating, and a free hand.
You create a single alchemical item that is of your level or lower for which you have the formula without having to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical reagents or needing to attempt a Crafting check. This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the start of your next turn and does not count for your limit of Infused items. After this period, the item becomes inert and grants no effects. If you overspend Resonance Points to use this ability and fail the flat check (see page 292), you can’t use any actions with the Quick Alchemy trait again until the next time you undertake your daily preparations.
Two things to note here. First, the action trait. This is because of some groundwork I did for the rest of the class. The basic Quick Alchemy allows you to build any item you know how to make, with no restriction, but no special effects. Other actions, granted by feats you might see later, would be narrower, but better. Other feats might affect your ability to use all those actions at once. By tying them into a single system, I can affect all of them at once. For example...
-Lv1- Studied Resonance: Knowledge, rather than personality, fuels your interactions with alchemical and magical substances and devices. Your maximum number of Resonance Points is equal to your character level plus your Intelligence modifier (instead of your Charisma modifier). If you are level 2 or higher, you also gain a number of bonus Resonance Points equal to half your level. You can use these bonus Resonance Points only when using actions with the Quick Alchemy trait.
You'll notice how I tied the previous Expanded Resonance into this. You might not think Alchemist needs that much extra Resonance early on, but it feels weird to just get the bump halfway through, and with the narrowing of Advanced Alchemy's batch size Quick Alchemy becomes more relevant, so this might very well be necessary.
-Formula Book
You start with a standard formula book worth 10 sp or less (as detailed on page 186) for free. The formula book contains formulas for your choice of 4 common 1st-level alchemical items in addition to the ones gained from the Alchemical Crafting feat. The list of alchemical items begins on page 360.
Each time you gain a new level, you can add formulas for two common alchemical items to your formula book. These can be of any level of item you can create. You learn these formulas automatically, but it’s also possible to find or buy other formulas, or to invent them with the Inventor feat (see page 167).
No change here, move along.
-Lv1- Alchemical Specialty: When becoming an Alchemist, you select an alchemical specialty. This grants you a bonus feat. Though you can still gain class feats tied to other specialties as you advance, you receive additional benefits when using abilities tied to your specialty. The specialties presented here are as follows:
Apothecary - you gain the Alchemical Savant class feat.
Demolitionist - you gain the Calculated Splash class feat.
Enhancer - you gain the Enduring Elixir class feat.
Toxicologist - you gain the Cutting Edge Mixture class feat.
DUN DUN DUNNNN. Here's the magic juice. Here's how you make an alchemist that does not use bombs. Here's how you make a good bomber. Here's how you use alchemy, in each of its main purposes. More on this in the class feats discussion.
-Lv3- Skilled Alchemy: All Infused items you craft have their quality improved to match your Crafting rank if higher. You also use your Crafting proficiency to determine your class DC.
This was supposed to be the first bomb improvement. Instead, you gain an ability that improves your item quality automatically (if I understand crafting correctly, higher-quality items are also higher-level, meaning an Expert-quality Lesser Alchemist Fire would be a lv5 item and would require a different formula) and lets you apply your +1 to your Class DC... which again, is explored further in your class feats. For bomb enthusiasts, this is an item bonus to hit.
-Lv5- Rare Alchemy: When you gain a new level, you can choose to add new Uncommon alchemical formulae to your formula book, rather than common ones.
Used to be the mutagen feature, right? Expanded to all uncommon items. There's not many right now, but it makes sense that an Alchemist would be able to learn them, if and when they get released. Plus it unlocks the lv20 uncommon formulas.
-Lv9- Expanded Alchemy: When using Advanced Alchemy, the amount of items you can craft increases to double your Intelligence modifier.
The only higher level feature I am sure of, this turns the small batches into more reliable, larger batches and reduces your reliance on quick alchemy, allowing you to use resonance points in many other interesting ways... which once again, I'll show you in the feats.
The Class Feats (level 1)
Note that this is a complete list of all level one class feats and that no other feats are to be used in the homebrewed version. Some are unchanged, some are condensed form of multiple feats, some are new altogether. I will not discuss every single change, but I will precede them with saying that I am writing these with the feel that alchemist needs to be able to use his alchemy, in a general form, better than other characters - BUT that he still needs to be able to choose one or two things to excel at, to be able to shine as much as other classes do. And I believe that these feats can provide a good baseline to work towards those specialisations.
These introduce the alchemical specialties mentioned in the lv1 features, while laying down some foundations - class DC, quick alchemy actions, the interactions with Advanced Alchemy, and elixir modifications being the main concepts.
Alchemical Familiar [alchemist]: You have created life via alchemy, though only a simple creature formed from alchemical materials and a bit of your own blood. This alchemical familiar assists you in your laboratory and adventuring, like any other familiar (see Familiars on page 287 for more information).
Alchemical Savant [alchemist, apothecary]: You can identify alchemical items quickly. When trained in the Arcana skill and attempting to use its Identify Magic action (see page 145) on an alchemical item you hold, you can do so as a single action with the concentrate and manipulate traits instead of taking an hour. If you have the formula for the item you are attempting to identify, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your check and treat any critical failures as failures instead.
Special: if you are an Apothecary, your Intelligence modifier is treated as 2 points higher to determine how many items you can craft with Advanced Alchemy.
Calculated Splash [alchemist, demolitionist]: When throwing an alchemical bomb with the splash trait, the splash damage does not affect your allies. You must be able to perceive an ally to exclude that ally from your bomb’s splash damage.
Special: if you are a Demolitionist, you can add your Intelligence modifier to the bomb’s regular damage and splash damage.
Cutting Edge Mixture [AAA] [alchemist, quick alchemy, toxicologist]
Cost 1 Resonance Point.
Requirements You must have alchemist’s tools (see page 184), the formula of the alchemical item you’re creating, and a free hand.
You create a single alchemical poison that is of your level or lower for which you have the formula without having to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical reagents or needing to attempt a Crafting check. This item has the infused trait, but does not count for your limit of Infused items. You apply the poison to a weapon you or an adjacent ally are holding as part of this action. If you overspend Resonance Points to use this ability and fail the flat check (see page 292), you can’t use any actions with the Quick Alchemy trait again until the next time you undertake your daily preparations.
Special: If you are a Toxicologist, you can use your class DC as the poison’s DC for all required saving throws.
Enduring Elixirs [alchemist, enhancer]: When drinking one of your Infused Elixirs that does not have the Mutagen trait, you treat its duration one category higher, as follows: 1 round, 1 minute, 10 minutes, 1 hour, 8 hours. Special: If you are an Enhancer, you can increase the duration of your Elixirs for whoever drinks it.
Far Lobber [alchemist]: You’ve learned techniques to improve your distance throwing. When you throw an alchemical item (a bomb or a vial of inhaled poison), it has a range increment of 30 feet instead of the usual 20 feet.
Quick Bomber [alchemist]: You place your bombs in easy-to-reach pouches and learn how to draw them almost without thinking. When you use the Interact action (see page 307) to draw an alchemical item with the bomb trait, you can draw two bombs instead. When using an action with the Quick Alchemy trait to create a bomb, you can also draw one other bomb as part of the same action.
You'll notice from here that Demolitionists are damage-oriented, Toxicologists can use poison more easily and effectively than most, Enhancers are able to provide support to other characters, and Apothecaries are a generalist form of alchemist, able to master the science in general terms without specific narrow focuses. While a specialised Alchemist can pick up another class's feat, they will not gain the full benefits, and sometimes that's ok. Other feats are unaligned and grant their full benefit to everyone.
Progressing further, feats and features should focus on three main points:
- to make Alchemist feel good about their ability to provide situational, short-term support to the party.
- to make Alchemical items compete, partially or fully depending on specialisations, with spells and resource-based class features (but still covering separate niches. I feel like Silversheen shows this very well).
- to make player's agency relevant to what the character's individual playstyle is, or, in other words, to not force all alchemists into the same pattern of "here are your bombs, that's what you do".
As always, hope you enjoyed the read. Let me know what you hate.
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I really like this take on advanced alchemy, and moving expanded resonance to level 1 feels like a no brainer.
One thing that's tripping me up (as it trips me up in RAW as well) is that one can't use class DC for poisons without having used quick alchemy to create that poison. Especially when one considers that poisons have different effects when compared to each other side by side regardless of level, it's strange that one can't use, for instance, giant centipede venom effectively without burning proportionally more resonance for it.
@Thomas: I initially had it as "toxicologists use class DC on all poisons", then it became "all infused poisons" and then finally "on the poisons they make with quick alchemy". It was a good concept but it clashed with power control, I'm sorry. On the plus side, there's a bunch of interesting fancy poison concepts I'm working on, and if I get some days off to flesh them out well, I think you might find them interesting :)
@Guru:
1- As I wrote it, the system makes alchemists a little more accurate than spellcasters with their rolls, because Crafting progresses faster than spell proficiency. However, Alchemists lack the Duelist items, which is why I have a rough outline in place where the lv12 Demolitionist feat grants a +2 circumstance bonus to throws and the lv20 grants a +4. These as the side benefits. There are alternative ideas (converting crafting bonuses into attack bonuses, for example) but I don't like them as much. For every houserule I make there's about a dozen discards, so don't be surprised if I end up posting something completely different when I finally get to it.
2- Darn. I tried to integrate the erratas into it. I missed one. Too late to edit it. I also skipped the lightning bomb.
3-as said,
-Blue Bottle (lv20 Uncommon) [alchemical, bomb, consumable, electricity, splash]. Blue Bottle deals 6d6 electricity damage, 6 electricity splash damage, and causes the target to be flat footed to all creatures until the end of your next turn.
For the incorporeal, I will take the chance to reiterate on my closing statement. Alchemist needs its own niche, not to be a pretend spellcaster. While I did toy with the idea of property runes for bombs similarly to a Paladin's blade ally, I decided against it because I want Alchemist to specifically NOT be magical (as much as I can at least).
My current solution to this is a work-in-progress item that I temporarily dubbed the Wraith Buster (I wanted to add something about crossing the streams but it didn't work) which would supposedly work as an area bomb (5ft emanation) and affect all incorporeal creatures in the area, crystallizing around them and binding itself to their essence, thus making them partially corporeal for a brief period (Hampered depending on save result, decrease by 5 every turn, effect lasts as long as Hampered persists).
It's a rough outline and I'm not fully happy with it yet, especially because I decided that bomb DC scales with item level and not class DC, but it hopefully shows you what I want from Alchemist in general. The idea is that this is not just a "bomb vs ghosts" workaround, but it gives a unique and different way of approaching the issue. For example, you could not be a bomber and just use this to let your brawling barbarian grapple a ghost. Can your cleric do that?
I absolutely love this setup! You definately gave my initial proposal a much needed polish, and now it's sleek and elegant. I agree that bombs should just come in levels like some of the elixirs. Capstone bombs are a wonderful idea, and the AoE condition is a great way to make them feel special compared to enchanted weapons.
One thing I'd throw in (unless I missed it, or it's being reserved for feats) is getting expert and master bomb weapon proficiency. Legendary would be awesome, but it seems like paizo wants legendary weapon ranks to be a fighter exclusive.
Sorry I never got back with you, every time I remembered to fetch your discord account name, the forums were down!
Give me yours, then! Forums are up right now, and there’s about 15 more levels to polish.
As of 1.6, level-appropriate bombs are a thing and Alchemists get actual class features, plus an early level specialisation that allows them to pursue other careers rather than pigeonhole themselves into bombs. Furthermore, low-level mutagens are a thing.
However, the Advanced Alchemy feature still feels very much like prepared spellcasting for the morning, and -unfortunately much worse- the feat selection is still very much lacking, with almost all worthwile feats being aimed at bomber alchemists.
I am very glad that the update moved alchemist on the right path, but am still convinced that there is much to do - until I can look at feats and think "what's my best choice" rather than "Do I really have to pick one?", this isn't going to work.
Poisoner alchemists don't work well. Their poisons don't scale with level, so they have one or two choices (if they take the feat to increase their DC by 2, up to their class DC) that will have an almost appropriate chance of success (don't get proficiency boosts like spell casters) until they reach high levels. There are a lot of levels lacking injury poisons past level 10.
Solution:
1. The alchemist uses their class DC for invested items they create.
2. Class DCs are balanced with creatures of there level, so success rate doesn't change.
3. Poisons have higher level versions that increase their damage, so the alchemist does level appropriate damage.
In addition to those issues, there is no benefit of being a melee poisoner. Archer alchemist poisoners can poison their arrows in advanced, while it is very hard for melee weapon using alchemists to apply poisons. The must drop their weapon, draw poison, apply poison, pick up weapon. That uses 3 actions. They also need some benefit to make the risk of melee worth it.
Solution:
1. You can apply a poison while holding a weapon
2. You do not lose a poison on a melee miss
3. A poison applied from a melee weapon has a stronger effect. This could be something like adding poison damage that scales with your level to the hit, or adding a conditional penalty to the targets save DC. This could come from a class feat or a class feature.
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The first and most important thing I feel the class needs is a feature that boosts their Class DC. Alchemists are in a weird spot where they're more similar to spellcasters than martials, preparing their day's options in the morning with some limited flexibility through the day, but unlike spellcasters their Class DC never gets an increase.
The next thing that is needed is some variety in which saving throw their abilities can target - at the moment Debilitating Bombs and Poisons all target Fortitude, which is consistently the highest save among enemies presented in the PF2 Playtest Bestiary. Without any abilities that target Reflex or Fortitude saves, the Alchemist is very limited in their ability to affect most creatures of an appropriate level. Either they need access to poisons and conditions which target other saves, or they need some way to switch what save they can target.
There are other things which could be improved, but IMO those are the big ones.
I tend to post several suggestions but split up by what they affect. Item DC affects multiple classes, so it's not part of my Alchemist thread :) But it's definitely something I feel is necessary at some point.The first and most important thing I feel the class needs is a feature that boosts their Class DC. Alchemists are in a weird spot where they're more similar to spellcasters than martials, preparing their day's options in the morning with some limited flexibility through the day, but unlike spellcasters their Class DC never gets an increase.
The next thing that is needed is some variety in which saving throw their abilities can target - at the moment Debilitating Bombs and Poisons all target Fortitude, which is consistently the highest save among enemies presented in the PF2 Playtest Bestiary. Without any abilities that target Reflex or Fortitude saves, the Alchemist is very limited in their ability to affect most creatures of an appropriate level. Either they need access to poisons and conditions which target other saves, or they need some way to switch what save they can target.
There are other things which could be improved, but IMO those are the big ones.
I mean, have you seen Perpetual Infusions? Stuck at a DC 4-7 levels lower than anyone else? Nonsense.
I tend to post several suggestions but split up by what they affect. Item DC affects multiple classes, so it's not part of my Alchemist thread :) But it's definitely something I feel is necessary at some point.The first and most important thing I feel the class needs is a feature that boosts their Class DC. Alchemists are in a weird spot where they're more similar to spellcasters than martials, preparing their day's options in the morning with some limited flexibility through the day, but unlike spellcasters their Class DC never gets an increase.
The next thing that is needed is some variety in which saving throw their abilities can target - at the moment Debilitating Bombs and Poisons all target Fortitude, which is consistently the highest save among enemies presented in the PF2 Playtest Bestiary. Without any abilities that target Reflex or Fortitude saves, the Alchemist is very limited in their ability to affect most creatures of an appropriate level. Either they need access to poisons and conditions which target other saves, or they need some way to switch what save they can target.
There are other things which could be improved, but IMO those are the big ones.
I mean, have you seen Perpetual Infusions? Stuck at a DC 4-7 levels lower than anyone else? Nonsense.
The issue with using Craft DC in place of an item's listed DC is that any magic item which grants a bonus to your Craft check would increase it. That would increase your Craft DC by as much as +5 over the DC of spells and similar effects, which is way too high.
Instead, I'd prefer if Potent Alchemy got nixed and the Alchemist simply used their Class DC for items they craft (whether via downtime, Advanced Alchemy, or Quick Alchemy) and then alchemical items got their own Proficiency track, with Alchemists reaching Legendary. That would put their DCs on-par with spellcasters, which is pretty much mandatory for stuff like Debilitating Bombs and Poisoner builds to function.
The issue with using Craft DC in place of an item's listed DC is that any magic item which grants a bonus to your Craft check would increase it. That would increase your Craft DC by as much as +5 over the DC of spells and similar effects, which is way too high.
So you'd support the removal of Item Bonus to skills. I could link another thread of mine for that, but I hope the writing on the wall has been clear enough from my posts, I don't like them very much and they keep getting in the way of the game becoming good.
And yes Shroudb, resource availability does suggest that alchemical items are more expensive than spells.
I am not going to republish my alchemist remake, but I have other versions in the works - one is currently based off the Focus system, and includes the note "all Infused items gain their Focus benefit at no cost". This does tend to make them valuable enough to justify their high cost, but it's giving me a few issues too, so I'm looking into options.
Overall looks very good. Some personal notes.
Save DCs for items should always be based on the user, not the device. Even moreso for an alchemist.
Without looking deeply into it, 2 formulas per level seem too few. This is especially true if different-lever versions of the same item has different formulas.
About rarity, I prefer that the rarity of the items/formulas be altered (especially the level 20 ones) than having a class feature that allows access to more rare items. To me, the rarity system is a way for the GM to have benchmarks for which things are reasonable to restrict/use as rewards. Bypassing that is not a good idea in my mind.
From what I've seen, the mutagen and bomber paths both seem fairly good, though I'm really not sure how I feel about how slowly perpetual alchemy scales for bombers and poisoners, and lets not even get started on healer path.
As it stands, the mutagen user getting infinate mutagens has a really nice hidden benefit of being able to give those buffs to their teammates as well, which could be a really nice trick.
The bomber, with it's damage being lower, probably needs to rely on exploiting those free additives every bomb. Calculated + expanded splash does give you a niche of spammable AoE, though. It would be great if bomb proficiency adds to your class DC like spellcasting proficiency does. If explosive missile enters the game, I'd be absolutely fine with the weaker bombs though.
The poisoner I no real thoughts on becaise I havent really dealt with poisons much to familiar with the problems.
The medic though... Like, the actual benefits they get are kinda neat for the flavor, but anti plague and antitoxin are just way too situational. They really should just be allowed to pick any appropriate level common elixir excluding elixir of life.
Overall though, I'm happy to see some very much needed buffs