A Simple Craft (what alchemists, rogues, and rangers wait for)


Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells


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So, I kinda posted this as an offhand, dismissive comment, and it sorta grew on me after someone pointed out it made more sense than I intended.

Allow Crafted items to use your Craft DC.

That's... pretty much it. It does not conflict with the current DCs as it's always equal or better, it does not add too much weight to the rules, and it rewards characters who spend time to do things. It allows alchemists and rogues to use poisons, rangers to use snares, thunderstones to exist, and items to remain consistent and valuable over time.

It could be a skill feat, but it just makes sense as is - if you are a better craftsman, you make better stuff.

Can it be a thing? Or at least get some consideration?


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I really love this concept, to the point where it's one of those things that is not just definitely a house rule if it's not already part of the rules when PF2 comes out for real, but I'm certainly using it as the basis for a house rule for PF1 immediately. Now that I've seen it, I can't un-see it.

I think the only consideration that would need to be given is for the few places where there already exists a feat that allows one to use their class DC in place of the regular DC for one of these items. I'm of two minds about what to do about this. First, a class DC is often different from the craft DC (for example a rogue's class DC is based on their Dex, whereas craft is Int-based). That's a different enough distinction that I think you could get away with leaving those options in the game with additional wording of "if it's better." So it still allows for the niche of buying these items instead of making them and still getting the best you can get out of them, and other potential interactions along similar lines.

The second view on it is that these options are largely considered taxes on the concept of being good at item-usage. They could be allowed to be obsoleted by this concept, and then replaced in their classes by something else entirely that provides new and interesting ways of using the types of items they would have applied to instead of "keep up with the bare minimum of effectiveness."


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I completely agree with the OP. The one some change would make so many things useful that are almost useless now.
As for feats that do something similar I would suggest just the feat just add a +1 or +2 to DCs.


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Yup makes sense.


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WizardsBlade wrote:

I completely agree with the OP. The one some change would make so many things useful that are almost useless now.

As for feats that do something similar I would suggest just the feat just add a +1 or +2 to DCs.

This is not directed at you, personally, your post just brought up the topic. I would strongly prefer that there were fewer feats along the lines of "you get slightly bigger numbers for option X," and more along the lines of "you can now use option X in a way that you couldn't before!"


That was supposed to be the direction of the whole edition, but... Dunno. So many feats just patch holes on the previous features. So many little numbers screwing up mid-high levels. Let's hope.


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A simple but great idea of addressing the problem with how weak poisons and snares are atm


Ediwir wrote:

So, I kinda posted this as an offhand, dismissive comment, and it sorta grew on me after someone pointed out it made more sense than I intended.

Allow Crafted items to use your Craft DC.

That's... pretty much it. It does not conflict with the current DCs as it's always equal or better, it does not add too much weight to the rules, and it rewards characters who spend time to do things. It allows alchemists and rogues to use poisons, rangers to use snares, thunderstones to exist, and items to remain consistent and valuable over time.

It could be a skill feat, but it just makes sense as is - if you are a better craftsman, you make better stuff.

Can it be a thing? Or at least get some consideration?

I hope that this post gets traction and noticed, because this is the kind of language and rules communication that is ideal and effective. In the fewest words possible, the message is clear and meaningful. I would hope this gets implemented, and frankly even if it doesn't this will be a house rule at my table with Second Edition releases.

To expand on the idea, it would be worth specifying that consumables use the DC, since it is possible to craft magic items and the like. Although that would certainly be powerful if magic items. Used the same DC, but it could be a whole big can of worms to start toying with every magical DC in the game.

Now all that remains is for us to begin the occult ritual to summon Jason B. to this thread.


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Absolutely agree. Snares, poisons, bombs, locks, etc should all use the scaling DC set by the PC's level ability proficiency etc, not a static number.


Leedwashere wrote:
WizardsBlade wrote:

I completely agree with the OP. The one some change would make so many things useful that are almost useless now.

As for feats that do something similar I would suggest just the feat just add a +1 or +2 to DCs.
This is not directed at you, personally, your post just brought up the topic. I would strongly prefer that there were fewer feats along the lines of "you get slightly bigger numbers for option X," and more along the lines of "you can now use option X in a way that you couldn't before!"

I actually completly agree with you, but I would rather have skill based DCs with +X feats, over not have any skill based DCs.


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AvalonRellen wrote:
this is the kind of language and rules communication that is ideal and effective. In the fewest words possible, the message is clear and meaningful.

I mean... ish. That’s probably not the language I’d use for te rule itself, but as a concept, yeah, it’s simple, basic, effective, and easy to track (could be messy when a character keeps the same items for a few levels without using them and ends up with a bunch of DCs).

AvalonRellen wrote:
it would be worth specifying that consumables use the DC, since it is possible to craft magic items and the like. Although that would certainly be powerful if magic items. Used the same DC

My first instinct was to hiss and refute, but... actually, yeah, it might not be so bad. Maybe. This is mainly scrolls and trinkets, as magical consumables go. Not too much of a big deal if you think about it.

AvalonRellen wrote:
Now all that remains is for us to begin the occult ritual to summon Jason B. to this thread.

I believe we need shorts and a tie.

(I’m trying, folks)


Yes please.


It would create the need to track DCs if you stock pile.
but ya'kno what?
i'm 1000% ok with having to track which i made at what levels for something like this~

More so since with the change to infused, I don't think they'll allow Alchemists to preinfuse crafted stuff now (since anyone could use them)
though I still would prefer they do.


I was actually thinking a couple days ago how the new Resonance version could be called Infusion and leave Alchemist almost unhanged, simply having all his items pre-infused.

But yes there is definitely that - I doubt it’d make sense to have the DCs change as you level and it would encourage people to stockpile too much, much better to know they won’t be long-term and let people burn through them.


Perhaps there can be a feat that would allow a crafter to improve on items of lesser quality than they can make. Hence allowing the DC to always be thier crafting DC. This would help reduce the tracking of item DCs, but I would much rather track item DCs and be able to make them with higher DCs, than not be able to increase DCs at all.


Dunno, after all having DCs not keep up means they're more likely to be used up quickly. I always liked the idea of consumables being quick use stuff rather than long term stockup... Raise your hand if you ever played a MMORPG where you had a whole inventory page dedicated to elixirs. And never used them.


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Ediwir wrote:
Dunno, after all having DCs not keep up means they're more likely to be used up quickly. I always liked the idea of consumables being quick use stuff rather than long term stockup... Raise your hand if you ever played a MMORPG where you had a whole inventory page dedicated to elixirs. And never used them.

I've never played an MMO, but every Pathfinder campaign I've had a similar outcome with every Pathfinder campaign I've completed by the end. And, while I've never asked specifically, I do very much suspect that there are a lot of those sorts of things that would have been used if they could be made to have competitive DCs... but on the other hand a lot of those were found, so the DCs wouldn't be competitive by this change anyway.

This could probably stand to be accompanied by more abilities that let you buff the DC of something that has its DC already set. Perhaps that's a perfect interaction of resonance with consumables. So when some classes get one of these abilities that just works, it's valuable because you're no longer spending a resource to get the effect, which means you can instead spend that resource elsewhere.


Is anyone able to follow the Friday streams and bring this up? It unfortunately takes place in the middle of my night, otherwise I'd do it myself.


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Sounds like a great idea - the Minute I saw that the Ranger got the only feat to enable this for snares I thought - that means Rangers are the ONLY People that will ever use snares. (Nevermind that snares are still terrible). Same with bombs and Alchemists.
Yes, let one class be better than other classes with it, but not make only one class functional with this. We had this with Guns and Gunslingers in PF1, please don't repeat that mistake.
Tracking when you built what is as easy as writing down the Level of the item. Which will be a Thing in the future anyway, just like Starfinders Level appropriate Grenades and such.
But I could imagine going so far as to say you upgrade your stuff for free in your downtime when you Level. I could live with this break in realism for ease of tracking.


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Not much to add other than, I also came to this conclusion very quickly and already tested it out, only thing that happened was no body was surprised when there stuff stopped working, because it didn't.

Of course the rest of our time in the playtest will not be using this rule since as a playtest it's RAW > fun, however so far any class feature that has shown up to allow you to adjust this DC it always felt like an unnecessary tax that also shows up way too late. (like really Ranger doesn't get it until level 16? i thought it should have been part of the level 4 feat Snare Savant, which i was going to allow (in addition to spell points to give free snares per day), but as a play test I ultimately decided not to, the end result was the concept was too weak/stale for the large amount of time/effort/money snares already take the player just simply decided it wasn't worth it.)


I think using class DC rather than crafting DC can still be a thing, after all not everyone might want to spend downtime crafting, but it needs to have something else beside it - perhaps just as a form of feat condensation, or perhaps something more peculiar.

One thing is for sure, for being the edition that gets rid of all small numerical bonuses, there's a lot of feats that exist solely to provide you with large (mandatory) numerical bonuses.

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