Making Intelligence a little better...

[Dante Doom]

So as ressonance is now derived from charisma we know that the Intelligence became the weakest ability.

I came up with a simple fix for this. Let me know what you guys think

1) when you would get your skill increase in odd levels you get more increase based on your intelligence.

The formula is: 1 + Int modifier (rounded up) (Minimum 1)

So if you have a better modifier you will get better increases.

2 Another fix should make at character creation 2 floating signature skills, to accommodate more skill increases

[Midnightoker]

I'd indeed also like some kind of tie in with skills and intelligence.

The trick is how do you give skills away without allowing INT based classes to then dominate the skill game? Because of all the classes Wizards deserve the least number of skills (Alchemist has a lot in 1E and as is so maybe they're fine)

I think one skill increase every two levels is too few and all classes should be given a base value which then can be adjusted to suit:

- wizard - 1 + INT
- fighter - 4 + INT
- Cleric - 2 + INT

In conjunction with this, you'd want to make Master and Legendary skill increases cost 2 instead of just 1. This allows breadth of skill without people becoming overly specialized.

I'd also say you can only increase a skills proficiency one step at levels these increases occur (i.e. You can't go from trained to master or untrained to expert)

It would also help with the issues skills suffer from right now anyways and might make Signature Skills (albeit still allowing you to gain unconventional SS from a feat or background needs to be added) a little more reasonable to limit INT based classes from grabbing a bunch of skills they shouldn't be good at. When skills are plentiful, role protection is going to become a little more important.

These are all just theories, but if INT gets tied to skills some things would need to be adjusted, so why not address a few other concerns people have with the skill system, as there seem to be quite a few.

[Bardarok]

A small boost I like is to make the int modifier give bonus skill boosts at lvl one instead of bonus trained skills. Its a subtle difference but it would allow high Int characters to be experts in things where Int 10 characters could only be trained.

E.G. Int 14 Rogue gets 10 trained skills then 2 skill boosts which can be used to become expert in 2 trained skills (or trained in more if that is the desire as normal).

That's a pretty small change so it might not be enough of a boost but it would be easy to implement.

[PCScipio]

Right now skills aren't very good, so more skills isn't worth very much. That could change if the DCs get lowered.

[Mechagamera]

I think I would be more inclined to give bonus damage on a crit based on your int modifier (smarter characters make more tactical strikes). It would provide some small incentive for non-wizards to not dump int, which would make int overall a better stat.

[Dasrak]

Bardarok wrote:

That's a pretty small change so it might not be enough of a boost but it would be easy to implement.

Because we only get 3 skill promotions that can be used to upgrade to legendary, and only 4 skill promotions that can be used to upgrade to master, it wouldn't actually be possible to make use of this at higher level. There just wouldn't be enough skill increases to keep those skills promoted.

[Bardarok]

Dasrak wrote:

Bardarok wrote:

That's a pretty small change so it might not be enough of a boost but it would be easy to implement.

Because we only get 3 skill promotions that can be used to upgrade to legendary, and only 4 skill promotions that can be used to upgrade to master, it wouldn't actually be possible to make use of this at higher level. There just wouldn't be enough skill increases to keep those skills promoted.

Yah it would give more expert skills, and unlock more skill feats/upgrade feats if you invested in those, but legendary and master are locked by the levels you can earn them so unaffected. As I said a minor boost.

[Aadgarvven]

Midnightoker wrote:

I'd indeed also like some kind of tie in with skills and intelligence.

The trick is how do you give skills away without allowing INT based classes to then dominate the skill game? Because of all the classes Wizards deserve the least number of skills (Alchemist has a lot in 1E and as is so maybe they're fine)

I think one skill increase every two levels is too few and all classes should be given a base value which then can be adjusted to suit:

- wizard - 1 + INT
- fighter - 4 + INT
- Cleric - 2 + INT

In conjunction with this, you'd want to make Master and Legendary skill increases cost 2 instead of just 1. This allows breadth of skill without people becoming overly specialized.

I'd also say you can only increase a skills proficiency one step at levels these increases occur (i.e. You can't go from trained to master or untrained to expert)

It would also help with the issues skills suffer from right now anyways and might make Signature Skills (albeit still allowing you to gain unconventional SS from a feat or background needs to be added) a little more reasonable to limit INT based classes from grabbing a bunch of skills they shouldn't be good at. When skills are plentiful, role protection is going to become a little more important.

These are all just theories, but if INT gets tied to skills some things would need to be adjusted, so why not address a few other concerns people have with the skill system, as there seem to be quite a few.

We could also give wizards -2 skills

[Leedwashere]

I don't think wizards are really a problem in 2E, skills-wise. You can't start with more than 18 Int, which gives them 6 trained skills. This is just 1 more than a sorcerer or cleric with 10 Int. Hardly world-shattering. And improving your Int later doesn't do diddly for you. You don't even get to start with more than 3 languages regardless of your Int score.

I'm all for making Int a little better, though. I really like the suggestion of classes having a base allotment of trained skills, then giving you a number of skill increases equal to your Int modifier, no questions asked. There's already a rule that you can't go straight to master, so what's the worst that could happen? A wizard or Alchemist might be an expert in 3 or 4 skills early? Why is this a bad thing for the studious classes?

As it is, I built my first rogue with 16 int because I like smart characters. It was a little jarring to realize that I had all but 3 skills in the game trained, but okay. Whatever, I'm a really skilled class. I think starting out with 7 trained and 3 expert would feel even more like a hyper-skilled character, and having some skills potentially already at expert come your first skill feat at level 2 (for most) makes for some more interesting choices.

EDIT: I think in a system like this, one would probably set the rogue to 8 or 9 trained skills and give them the corresponding 1 or 2 you took away as free skill increases in addition to any gained from Int, so that they remain the skill kings.

I think that's a good enough incentive to start with some Int, even if it doesn't scale with your levels and doesn't give an incentive toward keeping it high, it will have already done its job.

[shroudb]

I keep saying that Int needs major boosts atm.

Paizo goes towards "you don't need Int to get your starting skills" as can be seen with classes like clerics, Druids, and etc receiving an insane amount of free skills.

I mean, at this moment, a wizard compared to a divine caster or a sorc gets +1 skill from a 18 on a stat, which is laughable.

The more pressing issue is:

Int increases never make you BETTER at anything. Only more average at more things.

Which is a major issue and the reason NONE of the 17, non-wiz/alch characters I've seen in my (and 2 other friends GMs) tables had more than 10-12 int (the 12 were elves that had to...)

I've already said it before, but the bare minimum would be for skill ranks given by Int to not be capped to trained.

This gives incentive to put ability boosts in int as well as any other stat.

Secondly, allowing one to roll ALL "recall knowledge" checks using int if they wish could also help with making Int the "knowledge stat" without penaltizing the divine classes that took Religion and Nature as Wis based.

As above with medicine (it is a science after all, the hearth/herbal medicines and healing that are nature based are already wis based)

Basically, give more uses for Int because now it's a terrible stat that offers absolutely nothing outside of class features relying on it.

[Lyee]

I'd quite like to see Medicine moved to Int. Sure, some of the typically healy classes are Wis-based... but they have healy spells. There's no logical reason for Medicine being Wis, it's like the developers trying to min-max their healers and putting Medicine on the most beneficial stat instead of logical. It'd be like having Deception run on Dex because Rogues are often deceptive. Medicine is a very learned trade, not instinctive like Wis feels it should be.

[Igor Horvat]

add +1 language per int bonus as before.
add +1 weapon proficiency per int bonus.

[Loreguard]

I like the idea of your INT bonus being allowed to advance a skill to expert at the start.

It is disappointing that your only choices end up being untrained or trained when you are first level. (That isn't completely accurate, as you could choose a background based on a skill) In PF1 there was a lot more variance based on if it was a class skill or not, and if you took a trait or feat related to the skill. (and plenty of traits and feats changed skills into class skills, for instance, so you weren't stuck with class skills only based on your class)

Anyway, back to some of the thoughts, I don't think you can justify adding your INT bonus to skill increases every level you get them. At most, you might be able to allow it to operate a little like how bonus spells used to work.

You get your INT bonus at 1st level.

If you have at least a +1 INT bonus when you get rank increases again at 3rd level you could get another.

For the 5th level bonus you would have to have at least a +2 INT bonus to get one bonus slot.

So at 11th level you might be getting a fifth extra rank/slot. And I'd presume ones bought with INT slots would be limited to a rank of one higher than the other non-bonus ranks.

I also agree that it makes sense to allow INT to be used for Recalling Knowledge checks in general as an option, and might even be usable in Aid others checks.

I admit I also miss the extra languages by INT, but assume they limited it to the +2 bonus as a way to make languages more special. It did however make me wonder if +4 INT bonus should get another one. [or even make bonus languages = int bonus -1, or like mentioned]

It might also be interesting to have a variety of things that can be bought with INT Bonus 'slots' +2 and higher can be traded in for an extra language, perhaps have a +3 slot being able to select a language or a choice of a simple weapon at trained.