life Insurance how would you do it?


General Discussion


As a gm how would you work it out for your pcs. And as a pc how would try and get the best deal. I failed my attempt at it having to pay 3 times the price twice and only being allowed to use "it" at one location. Like opening an account at wellsfargo expecting to be able to use it at all the banks everywhere but finding out you only use your account or make withdraws at that one location. But if you but if you find another wellsfargo you can open another location by paying them the maximum fee. Thats basicly the deal i was able to strike. My group has it's issues but it's my group. *He stated with all the obstinance of a pouty child*


It has never come up for my group before.


I'd have thought insurance companies would refuse to insure adventurers. Far too risky.


Well chuches do bring people back if you pay them and i wanted to be able to have a reincarnation in our teams pocket just incase of a gm foul-up.

[Our gm loves to use hoard/swarm tactics on the party. But wont kill the pcs somehow we always win or he has to save us. Which mean we dont get the satifaction of being heroic just because we're not very good at taking on swarms of 20 to 30 being of equal lvl.]

So i went to the priests of the merchant god that has a massive trade business on almost every planet in the known universe. Made a substantial donation. So I could negotiate a token of sort that could be trade that could be traded in or a reincarnation the cheapest Resurrection spell there is, at any of thier many locations. So one donation the cost of the spell and the cost of the componants needed for the spell plus having to pay again to have the spell cast at the time of the reincarnation later i now have a token that can only be used at the Abadawn space station the main head office of the f*** all crooked as heck merchant preist of the merchant god. Our gm is making the god seem evil as hell even though he is a good god. Anyways i would call that insurance.

I wonder if I would be able to sue them <the church> incase they do not hold up thier end of the bargain. I have a contract and everything. In the game that is.

Churchs do it if you pay them enough. I am just paying ahead of time. And why wouldn't insurance companies insure heros of the relm they are rich enough to pay for it. And having a "get out of hell free, sorta." card would take some of the stress of the hero's shoulders. especially my groups case.


Have life insurance. The characters pay it every month or so. But have them like modern insurance companies, where they have severely strict things that limit it. Like the fact that you'd have to have someone bring your body back. Or that it only covers certain kinds of deaths. And if you're in a high-fatality field, then they might refuse you outright or make it so that if you died in a certain area, they wouldn't bring you back.


The insurance described by ghostunderasheet isn't life insurance, it's a pre-paid service. Insurance companies collect premiums and pay out when requested. They wouldn't insure adventurers as it's too risky a crisis will happen, many adventurers get killed and paying out bankrupts them.

Pre-paid tokens are not a problem as the church already has the money, even if every token is cashed in. That the token can only be used at Absalom is really crappy service. It's a capitalist society, find a church providing a better service. And yes, you can sue the church if they renege. I find it very hard to believe a liberal capitalist society doesn't have strong contract law enforcement. Besides, merchant churches understand the commercial value of reputation and reneging without good reason is bad for business.


Also, if you were surprised the token can only be used at Absalom station, you should have read the contract first. Now, contracts aren't absolute and civil courts can amend bad ones but I can't see a court demanding the service be performed elsewhere if the service limitation was already in the contract or well known.


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warmachine wrote:
I find it very hard to believe a liberal capitalist society doesn't have strong contract law enforcement. Besides, merchant churches understand the commercial value of reputation and reneging without good reason is bad for business.

You should take a look at modern insurance companies in the US. One refused to help a woman with skin cancer because she had acne as a teen. Another refused to help a woman on vacation from another country who had a baby while in the US because she had a UTI.

Insurance companies will find every hole they can to not pay out. In a universe with undead pirates and space-ship sized killers, corporations will still be the most vile, evil things around.


Azalah wrote:
warmachine wrote:
I find it very hard to believe a liberal capitalist society doesn't have strong contract law enforcement. Besides, merchant churches understand the commercial value of reputation and reneging without good reason is bad for business.

You should take a look at modern insurance companies in the US. One refused to help a woman with skin cancer because she had acne as a teen. Another refused to help a woman on vacation from another country who had a baby while in the US because she had a UTI.

Insurance companies will find every hole they can to not pay out. In a universe with undead pirates and space-ship sized killers, corporations will still be the most vile, evil things around.

At the risk of turning this into a political discussion, I'm pretty certain US health insurance companies settle if it looks like litigation is about to reach court. Alas, they know the ill have the least energy and finances to push it that far. So I suppose I ought to qualify my statement that I reckon most Starfinder societies have strong contract law enforcement but only if you can afford it.

In terms of adventurers pre-paying a resurrection service, I reckon civil courts keeps the church honest. Or rather, the customer can realistically invoke the force of law to enforce the contract. Adventurers tend to be wealthier and attract media attention. They can afford a lawyer and a voice in the court of popular opinion. Also, adventurers can always resort to keeping money in their own bank account and shopping around when required. When you can't **** over the captive market, you resort to having a reputation for a service worth buying.


ghostunderasheet wrote:


[Our gm loves to use hoard/swarm tactics on the party. But wont kill the pcs somehow we always win or he has to save us. Which mean we dont get the satifaction of being heroic just because we're not very good at taking on swarms of 20 to 30 being of equal lvl.]

So, everything else in this post is kind of irrelevant beside. . . this. Your problem is that your GM fails to understand the difficulty curve. PCs *are not meant to take on 20-30 foes of equal level*. He is, essentially, throwing an absolutely unwinnable encounter at your party, regularly. Even just 16 foes is worth CR +8, let alone 20-30. . . and PCs are not meant to be able to win anything beyond APL +4 ( and even that is "you might not all die" levels of 'possible' ).

You either need to somehow get through to him that this is not proper adventure design, or you need to leave and find a new GM.


*cough* Also, what keeps contracts honest is "The Church of Abadar". They stick to their contracts, and they make sure that everyone else knows if someone else doesn't. Its part of their religious duty, to ensure fair and free trade.


warmachine wrote:
I'd have thought insurance companies would refuse to insure adventurers. Far too risky.

The same way they do IRL ( did some work for a uk insurance broker a few yeas ago) for PMC (mercenaries).

Whole of life policies with a huge premium I seem to recall £30k a year for PMC working as security in Iraq circa 2007.

Basicly two expensive


I know i did something wrong with explaining what i wanted. Basicly i said hey is there a way i can get a reincarnation token incase one of our party members gets killed that can be "turned in" at any of your "churchs"? Answer was no because there would be no way for them to cash in the token and there fore you would have to pay them for the reincarnation spell. But hey we have this device that traps dead peoples souls so they can be resurrected later. I was like "no thank you i am a cleric of phrasma. Trapping the souls of the dead is kinda one of our triggers. I would rather have the reincarnation token" *mental note* inform the brotherhood that adabar clerics are trafficing in trapped souls. With no other option i had to go with the faulty token that can only be turned in at thier temple. Cost of the spell+ cost of the spell opponents+ cost of the token+ cost of the processing fee+ the cost to higher a high enough level mystic to cast the spell+ the handling fees. I believe i dumped anywhere between 16k to 20k on this insurance that may or may not work.


I dont remember the exact price because it happened three or four months ago and we haven't played since. Except a couple of times but nothing that involved know what i spent. Also it was something i tried to work out with the gm with outmy fellow gamers knowledge as a safty net and a way to allow the gm to just straight up murder a pc if he felt like it since he is always having to pull killing blows at the last moment. <pretty sure he does not fully understand the apl thing and is the one thing perventing me from gming myself>


You were had, mate! Should have walked away and put the money in a bank account instead. If a death happens, withdraw the money from the nearest branch of the bank, visit the nearest non-hostile church and request the reincarnation service. Walk away and go elsewhere if they're dumb enough to say no.


warmachine wrote:
You were had, mate! Should have walked away and put the money in a bank account instead. If a death happens, withdraw the money from the nearest branch of the bank, visit the nearest non-hostile church and request the reincarnation service. Walk away and go elsewhere if they're dumb enough to say no.

...........yea about that. >.> there is no Interstellar communication in our starfinder means there is barely any internet or Interstellar phone calls everything's done pigeon Style. Which is annoying af. Which means if you bank your money you do not have access to it. So you can not withdraw said funds. There is also a limited window in which a reincarnation can be used the corpse can be no more then a week old.


No interstellar banking? Not even Traveller style? That sucks. Well, you're a heavily armed mercenary. Carry your credsticks with you and, if needed, walk into the nearest non-hostile church. If they don't offer a fair price, look for a competitor. If the local churches, despite ideological differences, collude, exclaim you'll just incinerate the corpse and train another adventurer. Few let a profit margin walk out the door.

Acquisitives

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

no sane underwriter would write a policy on a PC.

sorry. no go.


Next you people will want health insurance and PTO. Ridiculous!


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
warmachine wrote:
I'd have thought insurance companies would refuse to insure adventurers. Far too risky.

Or they might do it the way a Heinlein novel handled a life insurance policy for an extremely wealthy multi-billionaire who was 90+ years old and dying in a hospital who wanted to buy a million dollar life insurance policy from a company who promised to sell any desired policy.

The premium on that policy was a million dollars a day.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd just relegate it to background fluff and leave it alone. I prefer to assume it is already accounted for in the book's listed costs of services.

In any case, there's no way for an insurance company to know someone is an adventurer (the adventurer certainly is t going to tell them). That's not really a profession. They might see you as a mercenary, a contractor, an explorer, or something else that is a little more grounded in reality.

It's not like a farmer who suddenly picked up his shotgun and decided to wipe out the local biker gang to protect his community one day will suddenly be labeled an adventurer and start receiving huge premiums. No, until he gets shot and requests medical services, the insurance companies will still likely see him as a low risk farmer.

Now, how many adventurers rely on medical services, rather than in-party healing? Not many I'd wager.


One of the main issues with this that I can’t see a way around is that insurance companies have to operate at a profit. Say you get a policy that will pay the costs of magical revival and restoration after your death. I don’t know what that would cost, say 5000 credits for ease of math.

So for every year (or whatever unit of time) you’re paying the premiums, you’re assuredly shoveling way more than 5000 credits into the company’s pockets. Why would you do that if you could just, instead, go pay the 5000 credits directly to the people performing the magics, like usual?


Insurance or not, having a revive or reincarnation token in your back pocket for future use is kinda ensuring that you got what you need. Despite how much money you have on you at the moment. Having a scroll that anyone could use would make it easily identifiable and stealable. But then again so would a token. And having huge sums of money on a person tends to make ones pocket hot while at the same time makes them a target. And besides why wouldn't an insurance company Ensure an "adventurer" they are paying their price and its keeping someone powerful alive incase they are needed to save the universe. It also gives the company access to someone that might be willing to help them out in a tight spot with out having to look to hard. The rate of use of thier services might even let them know who would be good for a given task. And as the parties healer i thought it would be something i should invest in till i am able to do it myself.


*blink* Why would a church not be able to "cash in" a token paid for from another branch of the same church? Its one organization. Also, doesn't matter if there's no interstellar radio. Insurance companies functioned successfully in the days of sail, comms-by-courier-ship work fine for interstellar banking and commerce.

Also, there's a good reason for an adventurer to buy a resurrection "in advance". Its effectively an investment, and really should be cheaper than paying on the spot. Say a revival costs 5000. If an adventurer buys "One Future Revival", the money goes to the church, and they can use it and invest it in the present. They only have to "pay out" at some indefinite point in the future, possibly never. So, based on how likely the revival is to be needed, and how soon, they can price the cost of this service so that its both cheaper for the purchaser and more profitable for the church.

Example: Say that they reasonably determine that the average adventurer won't need a revival until 2 years have passed, and that the church can easily get a 10% return on their funds. If they charge 4500 for a pre-purchased revival credit, after two years have passed? That 4500 will now be 5445. 5000 now goes to pay the cost of providing the revival, and 445 remains. The adventurer gets a cheaper revival, while the church makes nearly an extra 500 credits off the transaction. Win win.

Now, why buy a resurrection token when you could just invest the money and make interest yourself? Couple reasons. One, no reason you can't do both, if you have plenty of money. Two, an organized church can probably get better returns on investment than a random adventurer. Three, its possible the contract could allow resale or refund, allowing you to get your money back out if you decide you want cash more than the promise of undoing death.

Acquisitives

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Metaphysician wrote:

*blink* Why would a church not be able to "cash in" a token paid for from another branch of the same church? Its one organization. Also, doesn't matter if there's no interstellar radio. Insurance companies functioned successfully in the days of sail, comms-by-courier-ship work fine for interstellar banking and commerce.

Also, there's a good reason for an adventurer to buy a resurrection "in advance". Its effectively an investment, and really should be cheaper than paying on the spot. Say a revival costs 5000. If an adventurer buys "One Future Revival", the money goes to the church, and they can use it and invest it in the present. They only have to "pay out" at some indefinite point in the future, possibly never. So, based on how likely the revival is to be needed, and how soon, they can price the cost of this service so that its both cheaper for the purchaser and more profitable for the church.

Example: Say that they reasonably determine that the average adventurer won't need a revival until 2 years have passed, and that the church can easily get a 10% return on their funds. If they charge 4500 for a pre-purchased revival credit, after two years have passed? That 4500 will now be 5445. 5000 now goes to pay the cost of providing the revival, and 445 remains. The adventurer gets a cheaper revival, while the church makes nearly an extra 500 credits off the transaction. Win win.

Now, why buy a resurrection token when you could just invest the money and make interest yourself? Couple reasons. One, no reason you can't do both, if you have plenty of money. Two, an organized church can probably get better returns on investment than a random adventurer. Three, its possible the contract could allow resale or refund, allowing you to get your money back out if you decide you want cash more than the promise of undoing death.

eh...

the entire premise of being 'an adventurer' is that you can exponentially increase your assets, albeit at an insanely high level of risk. BUT you have to remain cash poor until the end of your career, because getting to that next level of reward requires you to plow in all of your earnings into new equipment, much of which is destroyed or otherwise rendered useless - essentially it depreciates to zero upon purchase.

there's just too much risk -

PC - I'd like to buy a life insurance policy

Underwriter - What profession are you in?

PC - Freelance murderer, tomb delver, monster hunter

Underwriter - I'll save you the embarrassment and show you the door now.


Even at worst, that would just mean that the cost of a Revival Token would be the same as the cost to buy a revival on the spot. It would still be a useful service, if only as a way to store funds and establish a useful relationship.


Metaphysician wrote:
Even at worst, that would just mean that the cost of a Revival Token would be the same as the cost to buy a revival on the spot. It would still be a useful service, if only as a way to store funds and establish a useful relationship.

i was thinking that too. But to make things short i am pretty sure my GMs is running the church as lawful evil or lawful FU or something.


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ghostunderasheet wrote:
As a gm how would you work it out for your pcs. And as a pc how would try and get the best deal. I failed my attempt at it having to pay 3 times the price twice and only being allowed to use "it" at one location. Like opening an account at wellsfargo expecting to be able to use it at all the banks everywhere but finding out you only use your account or make withdraws at that one location. But if you but if you find another wellsfargo you can open another location by paying them the maximum fee. Thats basicly the deal i was able to strike. My group has it's issues but it's my group. *He stated with all the obstinance of a pouty child*

First treat being an "Adventure" as what the job actually is a mercenary,bounty/monster hunting, and object/data recovery/person agent.

I'd have Adventure be a euphemism for "itinerant mercenary/bounty-hunter".

If the characters belong to a Adventure's guild or union then have medical treatment be part of the services that they get for paying their guild dues.

Along with room,board,training,discounts on equipment as a result of deals between the guild and various manufactures,and vehicle rental.

Based upon the amount of dues that an Adventure pays their guild, the standard being 10% of every job taken;though you can chose to pay more.

The Adventure is entitled to X number of "Free" medical treatments per year;if that number is exceed the adventure's must pay out of pocket,though at a discounted rate as a result of deals between the guild and medical service providers.

For those Adventures that operate independently their are likely specialized Medical Care services that cater to them.

Something akin to Shadowrun's"Doc Wagon", the Adventure pays a monthly or annual fee and they receive on demand medical care, with level of care provided based upon the Adventure's level of subscription Copper,Silver,Gold,Platinum,and finally Electrum.


ghostunderasheet wrote:
Metaphysician wrote:
Even at worst, that would just mean that the cost of a Revival Token would be the same as the cost to buy a revival on the spot. It would still be a useful service, if only as a way to store funds and establish a useful relationship.
i was thinking that too. But to make things short i am pretty sure my GMs is running the church as lawful evil or lawful FU or something.

In that case, your problem is bad GMing ( unless you actually are dealing with Zon-Kuthon or someone who actually is LE ). There's nothing we can do to help with that.


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Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
ghostunderasheet wrote:
As a gm how would you work it out for your pcs. And as a pc how would try and get the best deal. I failed my attempt at it having to pay 3 times the price twice and only being allowed to use "it" at one location. Like opening an account at wellsfargo expecting to be able to use it at all the banks everywhere but finding out you only use your account or make withdraws at that one location. But if you but if you find another wellsfargo you can open another location by paying them the maximum fee. Thats basicly the deal i was able to strike. My group has it's issues but it's my group. *He stated with all the obstinance of a pouty child*

First treat being an "Adventure" as what the job actually is a mercenary,bounty/monster hunting, and object/data recovery/person agent.

I'd have Adventure be a euphemism for "itinerant mercenary/bounty-hunter".

If the characters belong to a Adventure's guild or union then have medical treatment be part of the services that they get for paying their guild dues.

Along with room,board,training,discounts on equipment as a result of deals between the guild and various manufactures,and vehicle rental.

Based upon the amount of dues that an Adventure pays their guild, the standard being 10% of every job taken;though you can chose to pay more.

The Adventure is entitled to X number of "Free" medical treatments per year;if that number is exceed the adventure's must pay out of pocket,though at a discounted rate as a result of deals between the guild and medical service providers.

For those Adventures that operate independently their are likely specialized Medical Care services that cater to them.

Something akin to Shadowrun's"Doc Wagon", the Adventure pays a monthly or annual fee and they receive on demand medical care, with level of care provided based...

I approve of all of this.

Tangentially, you remind me of a realization I had about the Metroid games, and how Samus Aran is always described as a "bounty hunter" despite not actually hunting bounties. Instead she seems to be a freelance mercenary of some kind, when she's not just doing pro bono work as some form of super hero.

That was when it hit me: Samus Aran and the various other "bounty hunters", they are all individuals with extraordinary skills and powers well beyond that of conventional governmental forces. Which is to say, they are super heroes ( or super villains! ). "Bounty Hunter" doesn't come from their primary profession, but from the legal framework used to accommodate such individuals in society. After all, a bounty hunter is a private citizen who possesses limited quasi-law enforcement powers, in exchange for limited licensing demands. Its not the worst starting ground for accommodating the existence of 'super heroes' into the social contract. Certainly better than trying to insist that "No one is allowed to have more power than a nation-state", and getting into a violent repressive fit when reality does not match this desire.


Metaphysician wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
ghostunderasheet wrote:
As a gm how would you work it out for your pcs. And as a pc how would try and get the best deal. I failed my attempt at it having to pay 3 times the price twice and only being allowed to use "it" at one location. Like opening an account at wellsfargo expecting to be able to use it at all the banks everywhere but finding out you only use your account or make withdraws at that one location. But if you but if you find another wellsfargo you can open another location by paying them the maximum fee. Thats basicly the deal i was able to strike. My group has it's issues but it's my group. *He stated with all the obstinance of a pouty child*

First treat being an "Adventure" as what the job actually is a mercenary,bounty/monster hunting, and object/data recovery/person agent.

I'd have Adventure be a euphemism for "itinerant mercenary/bounty-hunter".

If the characters belong to a Adventure's guild or union then have medical treatment be part of the services that they get for paying their guild dues.

Along with room,board,training,discounts on equipment as a result of deals between the guild and various manufactures,and vehicle rental.

Based upon the amount of dues that an Adventure pays their guild, the standard being 10% of every job taken;though you can chose to pay more.

The Adventure is entitled to X number of "Free" medical treatments per year;if that number is exceed the adventure's must pay out of pocket,though at a discounted rate as a result of deals between the guild and medical service providers.

For those Adventures that operate independently their are likely specialized Medical Care services that cater to them.

Something akin to Shadowrun's"Doc Wagon", the Adventure pays a monthly or annual fee and they receive on demand medical care,

...

Years ago I realized that the profession of "Adventures" didn't make any sense.

The adventure profession exist as a result of overlap between how many people play the game and the setting, small itinerant bands of heavily armed individuals that do a mixture of treasure hunting,private security, and monster/bounty hunting.

In fantasy fiction their are few "adventures", the protagonists of those stories have a very specific reason to put their lives on the line.

There also few settings that just have small fortunes sitting around waiting for a sufficiently equipped band of individuals to claim them.


I'd take a page from Shadowrun and make a Docwagon style health insurance corporation. Different levels of service ranging from "will heal you if you visit a clinic" to "will send in a dropship and armed soldiers to extract you if you are incapacitated", depending on what monthly premium you're willing to pay.


Maybe i used the wrong word. But prebuying a Incarnation revive or other means of bringing yourself back. In a way you are ensuring that if you die you are going to be brought back. If you are with a good party that can or is able to fulfill the requirements of the spell.

Anyways i did notget this for myself i got it for a party member case one of them dies. I am the party healer so if it comes down to it i know i can survive if i am not a compleat and utter log.

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