|
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
To quote my previous thread in the old playtest forums...
Let's not play any games here. After the Half-Orc reveal, everyone's thinking the same thing. Please, please PLEASE full Orcs for the CRB. Give Half-Orcs something to fall back on, give us something up against certain other systems without them in core, and just a great way to placate fans of those big ol' meat boys. To be clear, I personally am not asking to replace goblins, I love those guys- I'm saying it might be a fun option to port those orc feats you gave to half-orcs to a new ancestry, give em a few more mechanical toys (we could really use a race with an inherent strength bonus, I feel!) and voila- a way to get Celestial/Tiefling Orcs in the future, and please fans of the concept who aren't as happy with the human heritage decision (which I think is great!). I know it's frankly impossible for em in the playtest by now, but I know people would super appreciate this change. If not for CRB, then as soon as possible alongside other classic options like Tiefling or Aasimar, and not as much of a pushover as 1e! Who's with me?
Said thread had 29 faves, and a lot of good discussion on it- and now that we know that orcs were originally intended to be core instead of goblins, I say "why not both"? Discuss, now that we know more about how ancestries work!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am not fond of the goblin inclusion neither would I be fond of orcs, other people want to have drows. How about we just make two versions of the rulebook or an early extension, Light and Darkfinder :D
now that we know that orcs were originally intended to be core instead of goblins
We do? What did I miss? Was this on Twitch?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am not fond of the goblin inclusion neither would I be fond of orcs, other people want to have drows. How about we just make two versions of the rulebook or an early extension, Light and Darkfinder :D
You know, I actually kind of hoped Drow and Bleachling were going to be ancestry feats.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On Twitch, they mentioned a few things they'd cut out and stuff they were going to replace (iirc one of the more surprising ones is they don't intend for Cavalier to remain an archetype), and originally, they had planned on putting Orcs into core, but changed to Goblins for mascot reasons!
Tbh between having the ancestry feats and the half-orc feat, it's easy to find out how the race was supposed to be.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
No! KOBOLDS AS CORE RACE!
Why not +4 str +2 con and int and chr flaw!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Relax, kobolds will be in the core rulebook. Under "Food."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
o_O its you again *Kobold vanish*
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'll be sad if they cut Cavalier, it is the only Archetype in the playtest that actually helps produce an 'archetypical' character. Pirate is the next closest and it is notably bad even for naval campaigns.
orcs in my opinion make way more sense than goblins save for the whole mascot thing.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why not +4 str +2 con and int and chr flaw!
This was discussed in the other thread- having a bonus to two physical stats is a horrific idea, since it would lead to +all physical ability builds from race alone, making them far better at martial stuff than any other ancestry. It makes more sense to go for +2 Str, +2 Wis and -2 Int!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just passing by to ask for Orcs as a core race! (not in place of goblins, but WITH them!)
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd be down with Orcs and Kobolds making it into the core assumption, at the very least Orcs. It seems weird that we have half-elves and elves and half-orcs but not true orcs as an option. Maybe it'd convince them to add more to the ancestry as a whole and make them a more interesting choice mechanically.
I'd also be down to see lizardfolk become playable in 2e. I've been in 3.5/PF for over a decade now and the fact that we still don't really have a 0-HD lizardfolk choice continues to sadden me. We got the Vesk in SF, gimme that but with high fantasy and cool lizardy powers like talking to dinosaurs, limb regeneration, or super disease resistance.
Seriously, I just want to play a croxigor something fierce or a skink priest lol.
Also, dope Orcs.
|
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Another thing is that Orcs would be particularly easy to write in is we already have half of the ancestry feats for orcs done; throw in a a handful more, write up a quick history thing, and some headshots- it's super low effort, but it'd go such a long way as far as marketing goes (Pathfinder- we have orcs, and DnD doesn't!)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Another thing is that Orcs would be particularly easy to write in is we already have half of the ancestry feats for orcs done; throw in a a handful more, write up a quick history thing, and some headshots- it's super low effort, but it'd go such a long way as far as marketing goes (Pathfinder- we have orcs, and DnD doesn't!)
EXACTLY
This is my main argument for adding Orcs, versus Tiefling/Kobolds/Ratfolk/whatever. Most of the work has already been done, and it feels weird to have a bunch of orc feats without an orc around
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No! KOBOLDS AS CORE RACE!
Pfah. Why have lousy kobolds when you could have precocious, fun GREMLINS?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really like the idea of Orcs in the core book!
I think both goblins and orcs would need a sidebar "wait, aren't these guys evil" that basically says
(A) extant cultures are evil (or which cultures are not)
(B) there are exceptions
(C) what sort of predjudice they might expect to face (something like "While most humans distrust Orcs on principle, there are a few place such as Kaer Maga where they can get along. Players should check with their GMs on whether orcs are appropriate for the game." or somesuch)
Actually, this might be better as a general "predjudice" section given that eventually we'll have Ratfolk, Tieflings, Dhampir and possibly Drow.
|
In the defense of Orcs. With the increased focus on Golarion, Orcs have a nation that's referenced in multiple APs. You can explain PC Orcs much more easily than Goblins, who are pretty much exclusively primitive tribal societies. If the book ends up more generic, there's even more reasons for Orcs (and in this case Goblins too) because you can do plenty of worlds where Orcs aren't just a cliche horde of barbarians raining down on your civilizations.
Why not +4 str +2 con and int and chr flaw!This was discussed in the other thread- having a bonus to two physical stats is a horrific idea, since it would lead to +all physical ability builds from race alone, making them far better at martial stuff than any other ancestry. It makes more sense to go for +2 Str, +2 Wis and -2 Int!
orcs should definitely be plus str and con, otherwise don't bother. they wouldn't be orc otherwise. and all things be equal I except the orc to be strongest toughest melee of all the ancestories. the lore of the game wouldn't make any sense any more.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
orcs should definitely be plus str and con, otherwise don't bother. they wouldn't be orc otherwise. and all things be equal I except the orc to be strongest toughest melee of all the ancestories. the lore of the game wouldn't make any sense any more.Why not +4 str +2 con and int and chr flaw!This was discussed in the other thread- having a bonus to two physical stats is a horrific idea, since it would lead to +all physical ability builds from race alone, making them far better at martial stuff than any other ancestry. It makes more sense to go for +2 Str, +2 Wis and -2 Int!
???
Orcs in lore and other Media are presented as strong yes, but "has to be stronger than everything else" has never been a thing I noticed, they just tend to focus on martial stuff. That's easily showcased with this and previous editions of Pathfinder and DnD by having their physical Abilities be higher after point allocation. 18 was obscene, just becasue melee focused PCs tended to have those didn't mean it was common and everybody had 18s. With the new Ability distribution method you won't get them past 18s anyway.
So if they have Orcs as a Core Ancestry with just a +2 to Strength I wouldn't bat an eye. It fits Orcs as being on average stronger than other ancestries and it would mean we finally have a Core Ancestry with a STR bonus.
orcs should definitely be plus str and con, otherwise don't bother. they wouldn't be orc otherwise. and all things be equal I except the orc to be strongest toughest melee of all the ancestories. the lore of the game wouldn't make any sense any more.Why not +4 str +2 con and int and chr flaw!This was discussed in the other thread- having a bonus to two physical stats is a horrific idea, since it would lead to +all physical ability builds from race alone, making them far better at martial stuff than any other ancestry. It makes more sense to go for +2 Str, +2 Wis and -2 Int!???
Orcs in lore and other Media are presented as strong yes, but "has to be stronger than everything else" has never been a thing I noticed, they just tend to focus on martial stuff. That's easily showcased with this and previous editions of Pathfinder and DnD by having their physical Abilities be higher after point allocation. 18 was obscene, just becasue melee focused PCs tended to have those didn't mean it was common and everybody had 18s. With the new Ability distribution method you won't get them past 18s anyway.
So if they have Orcs as a Core Ancestry with just a +2 to Strength I wouldn't bat an eye. It fits Orcs as being on average stronger than other ancestries and it would mean we finally have a Core Ancestry with a STR bonus.
Actually Orcs are stronger than like everything else. In the ARG, they have more strength than every race except the Trox and Ogre who have the same stat array as Orc which are considered monstrous races.
|
|
Actually Orcs are stronger than like everything else. In the ARG, they have more strength than every race except the Trox and Ogre who have the same stat array as Orc which are considered monstrous races.orcs should definitely be plus str and con, otherwise don't bother. they wouldn't be orc otherwise. and all things be equal I except the orc to be strongest toughest melee of all the ancestories. the lore of the game wouldn't make any sense any more.Why not +4 str +2 con and int and chr flaw!This was discussed in the other thread- having a bonus to two physical stats is a horrific idea, since it would lead to +all physical ability builds from race alone, making them far better at martial stuff than any other ancestry. It makes more sense to go for +2 Str, +2 Wis and -2 Int!???
Orcs in lore and other Media are presented as strong yes, but "has to be stronger than everything else" has never been a thing I noticed, they just tend to focus on martial stuff. That's easily showcased with this and previous editions of Pathfinder and DnD by having their physical Abilities be higher after point allocation. 18 was obscene, just becasue melee focused PCs tended to have those didn't mean it was common and everybody had 18s. With the new Ability distribution method you won't get them past 18s anyway.
So if they have Orcs as a Core Ancestry with just a +2 to Strength I wouldn't bat an eye. It fits Orcs as being on average stronger than other ancestries and it would mean we finally have a Core Ancestry with a STR bonus.
In the ARG yes (and also gave them a bunch of mental penalties), but I wasn’t talking about just Pathfinder, I said in Lore and other Media. Orcs are on average stronger than lots of things. They’re not the strongest things though. And they can still be stronger than almost all Ancestries by giving them a +2 to Strength (not a lot of Ancestries in 1st had a Strength bonus I believe), that also lets them be more openly playable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I envision Orcs having a +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int Array (with a Free Boost as usual), 10 Racial HP, Speed 25, and Darkvision.
Given that Orc tribes often include a few Shaman; I think Wisdom is the most appropriate fixed mental boost.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We lack a +str race
We also lack a - int raceIt seems like winwin. (last boost should probably be wis to keep with physical /mental stat arrays)
Although, having orcs as the goto clerics doesn't sound ideal either...
Consider that a cleric can just easily be flavored as a tribal shaman (considering the lack of Shaman) as well having Druids in their tribes who see to their animals.
Right now, the "go to" species option for clerics or druids (based on the wis bumb) would be Dwarf. While dwarven clerics are common, perhaps even a bit cliche, Dwarven druids seem like an oddity. Orc clerics might be the same, odd but not unheard of.
We lack a +str race
We also lack a - int raceIt seems like winwin. (last boost should probably be wis to keep with physical /mental stat arrays)
Although, having orcs as the goto clerics doesn't sound ideal either...
Golarion orcs are deeply religious. The religions they follow just tend to not be Nice.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If goblins can be core, I see no reason why Orcs can't. Especially if we are going to have orc feats for half-orcs, why not just go all the way?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Orcs +CHA all day. LOUD SCARY ORCS
At this rate, I'd like to see all of PF1's Bestiary 1 playable races as playable ancestries from PF2's own CRB, including Orcs, of course.
Plus at least 1 per other Bestiaries, to ensure that those races are updated as quickly as possible in the near future.
I envision Orcs having a +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int Array (with a Free Boost as usual), 10 Racial HP, Speed 25, and Darkvision.
Given that Orc tribes often include a few Shaman; I think Wisdom is the most appropriate fixed mental boost. [/QUoOTE]orc with +wis doenst make any sense. So one of the wisest race on avg continually engages in short sighted actions. Nothing about the lore of ORCs in pathfinder would suggest that they have a bonus to wisdom.
+4str +2 con -4int is the absolutely corret array to describe orcs as they have been written within the lore pathfinder.
Separating the game mechanics from the lore of the game is a bad idea in my opinion.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I envision Orcs having a +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int Array (with a Free Boost as usual), 10 Racial HP, Speed 25, and Darkvision.
Given that Orc tribes often include a few Shaman; I think Wisdom is the most appropriate fixed mental boost.orc with +wis doenst make any sense. So one of the wisest race on avg continually engages in short sighted actions. Nothing about the lore of ORCs in pathfinder would suggest that they have a bonus to wisdom.
+4str +2 con -4int is the absolutely corret array to describe orcs as they have been written within the lore pathfinder.
Separating the game mechanics from the lore of the game is a bad idea in my opinion.
For starters, +4 anything will break the stat mechanics (you don't see halfings with +4dex and elves with +4int or dwarves with +4con either)
+2str already puts them above all other races in strength, so lore is fine.
+str/+con is also a bad thing to do because it'll force most martial into playing orcs (+2str/dex/con starting)
The extra tankiness is better simulated through extra Racial HP (10 in this case same as Dwarves)
Yep. Also there's not anything actually in the lore that posits Orcs as being stupid either so that -4 to Intelligence has always been rather odd.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
*Banging my fists on the desk, stomping my feet*
ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS!
This guy gets it ORC! ORCS! ORCS!
Yep. Also there's not anything actually in the lore that posits Orcs as being stupid either so that -4 to Intelligence has always been rather odd.I envision Orcs having a +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int Array (with a Free Boost as usual), 10 Racial HP, Speed 25, and Darkvision.
Given that Orc tribes often include a few Shaman; I think Wisdom is the most appropriate fixed mental boost.orc with +wis doenst make any sense. So one of the wisest race on avg continually engages in short sighted actions. Nothing about the lore of ORCs in pathfinder would suggest that they have a bonus to wisdom.
+4str +2 con -4int is the absolutely corret array to describe orcs as they have been written within the lore pathfinder.
Separating the game mechanics from the lore of the game is a bad idea in my opinion.
For starters, +4 anything will break the stat mechanics (you don't see halfings with +4dex and elves with +4int or dwarves with +4con either)
+2str already puts them above all other races in strength, so lore is fine.
+str/+con is also a bad thing to do because it'll force most martial into playing orcs (+2str/dex/con starting)
The extra tankiness is better simulated through extra Racial HP (10 in this case same as Dwarves)
Also personal bias but I'd rather not look at stats as sad as the 3.5 half-orc ever again. Even if super genius orcs are rare, I'd hate for it to become flat out impossible to build one.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
As I remember Orcs of Golarion gave orcs the ability to forget. They could choose to simply stop remembering a traumatic event. Most orcs tended to deliberately forget painful events (such as losing), which led to a lot of their societal (and arguably moral) problems.
I thought this was a brilliant way of explaining why your average orc was so un-traumatised by such a brutal culture, and also not as learned without just making them dumb. The opposite of elves long lifespan giving more education.
It'd totally fit a penalty to intelligence.
In the same way Orc Ferocity supports constitution there could be a feat to back up strength without necessarily giving +4 str.
As an aside I think a "forget" feat would be an awesome ability for an orc.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As I remember Orcs of Golarion gave orcs the ability to forget. They could choose to simply stop remembering a traumatic event. Most orcs tended to deliberately forget painful events (such as losing), which led to a lot of their societal (and arguably moral) problems.
I thought this was a brilliant way of explaining why your average orc was so un-traumatised by such a brutal culture, and also not as learned without just making them dumb. The opposite of elves long lifespan giving more education.It'd totally fit a penalty to intelligence.
In the same way Orc Ferocity supports constitution there could be a feat to back up strength without necessarily giving +4 str.
As an aside I think a "forget" feat would be an awesome ability for an orc.
Oh, this is just juicy as hell! I hadn't even heard that one, but this sounds like something that isnt explored enough! Making them core would be a fantastic way to make sure it's more well delved into!
I'm not particularly sure where to take this crusade for orcish inclusion in the CRB. Potentially there'll be surveys where we can ask this, but otherwise, keeping the thread up and living is as good a plan as any.
I think another point that should be delved into is why Orcs over any other ancestry deserve a spot in as Ancestry Number 7; people are bringing up Kobolds, Tieflings, etc, but Orc truly deserves it for the plain and simple fact that it'd solve a lot of the "yikes" surrounding half orcs. By making them playable in core, we humanize them, and see them as more than just the stock evil race; certainly orc society is rough, but not every orc is the type to take a mate by force. Half Orcs would be tragic still, but less in a dubiously racist way, if that makes sense?
Tiefling And Aasimar are 100% going to be Heritage based, but it would be interesting to see them as actual races. Same with the Elemental ancestry races.
That being said <Off Topic>: Ancient Blood Dwarves (Residences to Magic at the cost of Resonance), Drow Elf (Replaces +Int with +Cha), Bleaching Gnomes (I don't know), Monkey Goblins (Trade Darkvision for Climb speed), I don't know a good one for Halfling, Half Orc/Elf Human (Change it so you get a penalty but choose an Elf or Orc feat free).
That being said, I would LOVE Orc as a core race. +Str, +Wis, -Int. And then have a Heritage that decreases their speed for increased threat range... Ogre Blooded Orcs?
From reading the bestiary, an Orc warrior would have this:
Warrior Background (+2 STR, +2 CON)
Ancestry (+2 STR +2 DEX +2 Con, -4 INT -2 WIS -2 CHA)
(somehow they got a level of fighter or something because their attakcs are 4 higher than a lvl 1 character and they get Attack of Opportunity)
The orc Warchief:
seemingly in gaining a level they get +4 STR/CON, +2 INT/WIS, and +4 CHA
they also lose the AOO
The orc Brute (level 0) has the same stats as the warrior, but less attack value by 2, so in gaining 1 monster level it gained 2 to hit...
They all get a +1 conditional bonus on Will saves vs Magic, so that's probably a racial thing. It also looks like they all have the Ferocity [Orc] feat.
The orc Brute has 6 hp (with a +2 con that means they get 4 from race...)
Warrior 13 (2*x from Con)
Warchief 25 (4*x for Con)
Based on this read-through, it looks like +2 STR and -2 INT would be confirmed, darkvision, and a racial +1 conditional on Will saves. That seems to come from the Superstition [Orc] feat, so they look like they have 2 ancestry feats to start with....
These numbers are all over the place and I can't seem to find an actual method to their creation, but the commonalities between them do give some hints as to the developers image and concept of the orcs.
A racial build oughta look like:
+2 STR/CHA -2 INT, darkvision, 10 HP; but that's a rough approximation based off three different monsters.
^Seems like they REALLY don't want Orcs to be able to think . . . Wonder if they fixed the bug in the Pathfinder 1st Edition Orcs in which they need Wisdom 13 to qualify for the Scent feat, even though they have -2 Wisdom, whereas Half-Orcs (who you'd think would have inferior olfactory bulbs due to the hybridization) can get it more easily.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree that orcs should be a core race. I also think half-orcs should be listed as an orc heritage option, and not as a human option. Likewise, half-elves should be an elf heritage option.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I approve. If for no other reason it feels like Pathfinder hasn't really ever had the chance to shine the spotlight on their orcs and how they're different and special. We've seen their goblins, their ogres, their kobolds and they're all great. The orcs have always felt like they've needed more of a Golarion spin--and this would be a great opportunity for that!