Is there an explicit list of design goals?


General Discussion

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder Superscriber

One thing that would be really nice would be if there were an explicit list of design goals. I know that streamlining the system is one goal that's been articulated, but are there others? Am I just blind, and have I missed it?

Here's why this would help a lot. Right now, the feedback conflates "this isn't working the way I would want a game to work" with "this isn't achieving what you're trying to achieve".

Explicit design goals would help. It would let people know if PF2 just isn't going to be the sort of game they're looking for. They could then give feedback on that, realizing that any complaints about systems not working are a bit off base, complaining that a boat doesn't move very fast on the beach. It would also let the designers articulate why they made some of the changes they did in light of the goals.

I didn't pay a lot of attention to the D&D/5e playtest, nor have I to the system, but back during the playtest I was aware of a few things. First, they wanted it to be easier to pick up than 3.5e or 4e. Second, they wanted to recapture the "feel" of 1e-3e, which had been somewhat lost in 4e, while still including things from 4e that fit and were beneficial. Finally, they were clear about "bounded accuracy": they didn't want bonuses to get out of hand as characters got to higher level.

I suspect there were more goals than that. My point is that even as somebody only vaguely paying attention to it, I knew that much.

Other than making it more streamlined, I don't really know what the Pathfinder/2e design goals are. (I also think that it doesn't really succeed at being more streamlined; that has been discussed by a lot of people in other threads discussing the complexity and organization.)

For instance, is it a design goal for every character to be able to ignore (modulo the ubiquitous chance of a critical failure) all but level-appropriate challenges of every form? If so, then the +1/level, and the fact that a 15th level fighter in armor can sneak better than a 5th level rogue, is actually OK. The game is going for a mythic feel, where characters aren't just Batman, but are somewhere between Amberites and gods.

Another example: in what way is it supposed to be streamlined? Calling everything under the sun a "feat" may reduce the myriad confusing vocabulary, but also may introduce just that much more confusion as different things get conflated together, and things of a given name are or are not found in the same chapters as what you'd expect. So, how does this fit the streamlining?

In short: other than having a new edition to revitalize interest and get people to buy new core books, what is PF2 really trying to do? Are there a handful or so of unifying principles that we can use to judge all the changes that have been made? (For instance, why critical failures on all kinds of skill rolls? That's a huge change, and has pretty severe consequences in some cases; I gave some numbers re: picking a lock in another thread. What's the design goal that makes this an important change?)


Your post is well written, I hope you get a response.

Liberty's Edge

Starfinder Superscriber

Bump.

Is there a place we can find these things?


This is an excellent question to ask. What is the end goal?

I listened to an interview, and I remember one stated goal from a designer was to "Decrease the gap between full casters and full martial characters" which I think is good.

And streamlining character creation and leveling might have been mentioned. I do remember that one of the designers mentioned that even he occasionally makes mistakes leveling up characters when others check his character sheets. Which they wanted to reduce in likelyhood?

I'm not sure what else they are shooting for. I hope you get an official response.

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder Superscriber

Here is what I've been able to piece together by going to blog posts linked in another thread.

* PF 2e should feel just like PF 1e. [1]

* Creating a character should be smoother and more intuitive. [1]

* Clean up flow of play, and add interesting choices in every part of the story (in between adventures, adventures, and combat within adventures.)

* Monsters should be easier to design. [1]

* Magic items should be interesting and fun. Characters should get the ones they want, not have "mandatory" items they need in order to be succesful. (I read this as avoiding what's called the "christmas tree" effect.) [1]

* Simplify the combat system so that it runs more smoothly and intuitively. [2]

* Make levelling up "more rewarding". (Not sure exctly what this really means. More fun? You get more new abilities with each level?) [3]

[1] http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lkl9?First-Look-at-the-Pathfinder- Playtest

[2] http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lklh?All-About-Actions

[3] http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lklr?Leveling-Up

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder Superscriber

I suspect there are others.

It's not clear to me how a lot of the things we see in the PF 2 playtest address any of these goals. This is why I suspect there are other goals. For instance, it's not clear how the whole Resonance mechanic addresses anything above. It's also not clear how the addition of critical failures on skill checks addresses anything above.

If they do, I'd like to see the justification for that. If not, what were the goals that led to those rules changes?

There are debates on other threads as to whether or not PF 2 feels like PF 1.

Shadow Lodge

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I went ahead and put on my marketing hat for a few minutes and confirmed everything is great.

All missions accomplished.

Marketing Time:

Quote:
PF 2e should feel just like PF 1e.

Look! There's wizards and barbarians! Longswords and glaives! You can worship Shelyn or Gorum! Most importantly... goblins and alchemists! Classic! It feels exactly like PF 1e!

Quote:
Creating a character should be smoother and more intuitive.

Gone are those days of planning out multi-classing before you begin your adventure! Gone are those wonky favored class things. Gone is remembering 5 different abilities your race gave you, now there's 1 and you pick it so you're sure to remember it! Gone is spending points even! Points on stuff like Strength or Bluffing. Just pick your race, class and a single background and you're ready!

Quote:
Clean up flow of play, and add interesting choices in every part of the story (in between adventures, adventures, and combat within adventures.)

Lock into one of 3 binary (trinary?) modes! Explore! Encounter! *drumroll* Downtime! Don't just roll Initiative, roll Stealth! Or Perception! More choice! Are you a fighter? Did you pick a shield! Now choose to keep it raised while you explore, don't just look for traps or doors or monsters!

Quote:
Magic items should be interesting and fun.

Boring items are gone! Now sensational ability boosts for free! No more sleepy 4000gp purchases on a belt or headband just to find out everyone else picked the wrong color to match the team banner!

Quote:
Monsters should be easier to design.

Empowered! Want to make a wolf?! Pick a random number between +1 and +10! That's its attack! Want to make a bear! Do it again! Playtest against your players and see how it goes! Just don't pick a number too high or you'll be testing the new critical success rules too often!

Quote:
Simplify the combat system so that it runs more smoothly and intuitively.

Remember how hard it was to tell a move action, standard action and swift action apart? Remember how hard it was to remember what kind of action(s) your spell took? Your talents or powers? Now they're all just regular actions! Nothing else to remember! Freedom!

Quote:
Make leveling up "more rewarding".

Sorry, out of time today!


I agree, it would be good to know what's the system not working as intended and what's intended that I just don't like. It has been stated we should be getting more talk about this on the blogs and Twitch streams.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Folks, I just want to note that throughout the playtest we will be giving quite a bit more insight into our design process for this game. It's a lot easier for us to do now that it all out there to be examined. Most of this will come from blogs and through our twitch streams.

Stay tuned...

On a related note, does anyone have a schedule for the Twitch streams?


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rknop wrote:

Here is what I've been able to piece together by going to blog posts linked in another thread.

* PF 2e should feel just like PF 1e. [1]

* Creating a character should be smoother and more intuitive. [1]

* Clean up flow of play, and add interesting choices in every part of the story (in between adventures, adventures, and combat within adventures.)

* Monsters should be easier to design. [1]

* Magic items should be interesting and fun. Characters should get the ones they want, not have "mandatory" items they need in order to be succesful. (I read this as avoiding what's called the "christmas tree" effect.) [1]

* Simplify the combat system so that it runs more smoothly and intuitively. [2]

* Make levelling up "more rewarding". (Not sure exctly what this really means. More fun? You get more new abilities with each level?) [3]

[1] http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lkl9?First-Look-at-the-Pathfinder- Playtest

[2] http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lklh?All-About-Actions

[3] http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lklr?Leveling-Up

Thanks for finding that.

1) They fell flat on their face. A guideline to this would be if characters and most content were convertible and presently you cannot convert because the rules are too drastically different.

2) Depends on whether you're building a one-trick pony or not. Quite frankly it is harder to build a fighter who can competently shoot a bow and swing a sword. That being said, one-tricks are very easy, just pick every bow feat since there's only one bow feat at a time to pick.

3) Flow of play: yes. Expanded choices? No. Look at a level 1 universalist wizard from PF1 to PF2. In PF1, the wizard got a familiar, hand of the apprentice, scribe scroll and could counterspell. Now they pick one. That's fewer options not more.

4) Probably so.

5) They could've just done the automatic bonus progression and otherwise left it the same but sadly the +stat items are even more important because it's one of the few sources of unconditional bonuses.

6) Seems like it.

7) I don't they truly achieved this. They got a better Skinner box, but actually rewarding levels? Jury's still out.


Bump for this because I too would like to see some responses as to specific design goals.

@rknop well worded and asked post. Thank you for taking the time to be thoughtful and respectful in both your questions and feedback. I do understand that Paizo will have a twitch Q&A but for me the forums are easier for me to look through and put time aside for. I can skim a forum post if need be and since my data is run from my phone I don't have to stream anything.

Again thank you rknop. Looking forward to hopefully hearing from Paizo designers about your OP.


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rknop wrote:

Excellent post and I agree wholeheartedly! At present, the playtest documents feel very constraining and streamlined - in the sense of railroading character choices, not efficiently presenting information - and my group has currently decided to stick with 1E except for sourcebooks on Golarion.

But having information on the design goals might help me understand what Paizo is trying to do and maybe we can then help test that even if we ultimately don't buy the final product.

Silver Crusade

I, too, would really like an answer from the developers on this topic.

"Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! DEVELOPERS!!!!"
- Steve Ballmer


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That would be really nice.

But what would be their motivation in doing that? It might alienate people from the game if they went out and clearly stated what they aimed for. If they vaguely state that they "are working on it" people project their wishes on the final product.

#cynical

Here's hoping they trust us and their vision.

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