They're pretty much the new version of class skills that you see in pf1, which often pushes certain archetypes anyways, but I see what you mean when you mentioned there's no flexibility. I think we either need traits again, or change backgrounds to give out signature skills outside of lore related ones. Starfinder had a good background system.
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I think more than anything, there needs to be a way to expand your signature skills, and have at least some choice in them at level 1. Signature skills aren't a bad idea if they have a little more flexibility.
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I agree - not being able to customise your signature skills feels like a step back in the case of flexibility for character ideas. Where there are options they're few and far between (eg: hospice knight).
For example, in pathfinder 1 i'm currently playing a cleric of Cayden with high acrobatics, courtesy of the trait Reckless (acrobatics as a class skill, +1 to acrobatics).
In PF2 there seems to be no way to make an acrobatic Cleric (other than worshipping Desna). Which forces me to be a certain alignment and follow a specific god.
For most classes they don't even have that option: their Signature Skills are what they are and that's it. A monk who was a hermit and wants to be great at Survival? Nope.
The idea of adding a signature skill to backgrounds seems like a good one to me. It makes backgrounds a bit more impactful plus doesn't mandate spending an extra feat to unlock a new signature skill (which is another obvious way to alter this).
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The best way to obtain signature skills is the Rogue dedication feat followed by Skill Mastery. That gives you signature skill in Thievery plus one other signature skill form the Rogue's list.
Other dedication feats also grant signature skills.
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Agreed. I also don't like that the game essentially incentivizes you to have three legendary skills from within your signature skill list, and keep your other X+Int-3 skills at trained. I actually had a mini skill-overhaul that I hope to see in the game which goes something like this:
You are limited to a single legendary skill (two for rogues). Additionally, you have Three (six for rogues) signature skills, at least one of which must be chosen from your class skill list (aka, what are now your class mandated signature skills; I could see changing this to "at least two" if the number of signature skills is increased for characters with low #s of signature skills).
This makes it so you can get 1 legendary, two other Master, and two other expert level skills, with the rest being trained. It increases the value of legendary skills since you can only have one of them (and also just fits my conception that legendary is a true apex of skill, and only the most skilled of characters can have more than one legendary skill), and creates a greater breadth of skill. To make up for the lower ability to gain legendary proficiency, you have greater choice in how you advance your skills, though you are still pinned into one class skill for your Master skills (which, were it me, I'd probably do without, but if Paizo thinks there's a good reason to keep class skills, I'll settle with that).
One way is to take that Additional Lore feat. new feat is signature now. Not that it matters since you aren't limited for Lore feats according to books.
One way is to take that Additional Lore feat. new feat is signature now. Not that it matters since you aren't limited for Lore feats according to books.
All Lore skills are signature skills (page 151, 2nd column).
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I feel like all they need to give us back our options and customization on skills is give a floating signature skill at lvl 1 on top of current signature skills or a feat to make a skill a signature skill as a general and/or skill feat. I think either of these (or preferably both) would let us make fighters that are able to intimidate or stealth or any other uncommon skill combos we currently can't do.
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I like the idea of giving Signature skills from Int bonus. For each +1 you get to choose a Signature skill.
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I like the idea of giving Signature skills from Int bonus. For each +1 you get to choose a Signature skill.
Seconded! The current set up just isn't that functional and this would solve multiple issues at once
In the signature skills section, it mentions backgrounds giving you signature skills, but this doesn't seem to be the case. Perhaps its an accidental omission.
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Just ditch signature skills. Let the player decide what skills fit their character concept. If nothing else, Hero Lab needs to make this something that can be turned off on a game by game basis.
Just ditch signature skills. Let the player decide what skills fit their character concept. If nothing else, Hero Lab needs to make this something that can be turned off on a game by game basis.
or at the very least, you could flip what a signature skill does for you. Instead of making these the only skills you can get to the top degree of proficiency in. Instead, make it so that signature skills are skills that a character is automatically trained in. I this way you can keep the concept of "these skills are easier to learn" without limiting a player who wants to follow a character concept that isn't "the norm".
Instead, make it so that signature skills are skills that a character is automatically trained in.
Or maybe add a free, bonus skill upgrade you can only spend in those signature skills each time you get a new skill upgrade, even if you already used one of your normal skill upgrades in it.
Or a mix of both.
How many folks have made level 7, 15 and 20 characters yet? How many skills are you trying to boost to legendary? I have struggled to have enough skill points to do more than keep up with a main caster skill.
I think giving non-rogues a free skill increase and skill feat (that can only go towards a signature skill) at 3/7/15 would help the skill disparity quite a bit.
How many folks have made level 7, 15 and 20 characters yet? How many skills are you trying to boost to legendary? I have struggled to have enough skill points to do more than keep up with a main caster skill.
I've made a bunch because making characters is my favourite part of the game. :) There are some characters where I'm fine with the options because they aren't really invested in skills beyond Athletics or Arcana or what have you. But they I have Rangers and Bards that have the deluge of skills at level 1 and feel starved as the levels increase. Some Rogues that are less skill-focused feel the opposite. "Uh, I guess I'll increase Medicine now?"
I like the overall system, but I think the numbers of skills (both initial and when increases are granted) need tweaking.
I think letting everyone choose all their signature skills and then just have class feats that make use of the recommended signature skills. Would be a good alternative to what it is now.
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Not only are skills and signature skills limited by class (which could easily be remedied by just adding “select an additional signature skill” at 1st level and perhaps adding “gain another signature skill” as a skill feat), but total skills also seem to be allotted unfairly by class. Rogues get tons more skills than every other class and could afford to have their number lowered (7+int seems fair, especially given the ludicrous number of skill feats every rogue will have). Fighters, Paladins, Alchemists, and Barbarians should likewise have access to more skills, with 5+int being a good number to reflect their breadth of experience.
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... Fighters, Paladins, Alchemists, and Barbarians should likewise have access to more skills, with 5+int being a good number to reflect their breadth of experience.
Don't forget monks in that list.
I would be in favor of feats that let you gain additional signature skills at higher levels. Directly choosing signature skills at 1st level is a bad idea because signature skills are meaningful only for skills that you have trained up to expert and want to train up to master and beyond -- something that can only happen well after 1st level.
Signature: a distinctive pattern, product, or characteristic by which someone or something can be identified. So a signature skill identifies... what? A class? A PC? Something else?
If you could raise any skill to legendary level, then what? No skill would be distinctive any more. Would there have to be some limit on how many or which ones you could raise that high?
I think a case could be made for choosing a signature skill just by increasing it past Expert proficiency. That would be a lot simpler than the current system.
Given the current restrictions, you're right. But who knows if those restrictions will remain if Paizo decides to change Signature skills?
I really don't have a problem with not limiting signature skills to the ones in the class description. OTOH, I wouldn't have a problem if they did away with classes altogether. But then it would be a different game.
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It appears my post from this morning got eaten during the website difficulties, but I had said something along the lines of liking the idea of being able to pick at least some of the signature skills instead of having them all determined by class.
While I'm sure archetypes will allow for more variation, right now it feels to me like it will create too much sameness among characters of the same class. I don't know that every single monk has to have the same three signature skills, for example. I like the idea of having a broader array per class to choose from, or maybe one floating choice or ... something.
Upvote flexibility in picking signature skills
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I feel like signature are trying to make the statement “This is what this class is good at,” but it’s going about it in a way that stifles character options. Here's my thoughts on a replacement:
1) Remove the current version of signature skills. Anyone can use skill increases to get to legendary if they want to.
2) Instead each class selects 1 signature skill from ~2-3 available to their class. This skill automatically upgrades to E/M/L at levels 1/5/13 giving each character a niche where they progress faster than anyone else is able to using skill increases.
For example, a Barbarian could choose Intimidate or Survival as their signature skill at level 1. The chosen skill would start at Expert, then progress to Master and Legendary at 5 and 13 without spending any skill increases. The Barbarian would always have the niche of being the best survivalist since she gets her increases faster than anyone else, but if she wants to be a legendary medic she won't be told she can't by the current signature skills system.
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Here is what I have come up with.
Signature skills don't really have much of an impact. A wizard with a legendary arcana skill would only have a +2 over a rogue that picked it up to expert with all other things being equal. If a rogue wants to put that much into Int and the skill that's fine but I still think a wizard that is studying arcana all the time should be better at it than a rogue that is studying it part-time. I think one of the things the different classes should excel at is their signature skills.
So how about using the -3, 0, +2, +4, +6 bonus for only signature skills and then adding a signiture skill into the backgrounds. That way if you want and acrobatic wizard that can be legendary in acrobatics they can have an acrobat background. Maybe your party doesn't have a rogue so your bard takes criminal and they now have thievery as a signature skill. Right now the only class that can disable a trap or open a locked door is a rogue. I know that is what the class is for but having another option would be good.
Background - Signature Skill.
Acolyte - Religion
Acrobat - Acrobatics
Animal Whisperer - Nature
Barkeep - Society
Blacksmith - Crafting
Criminal - Thievery
Entertainer - Performance
Farmhand - Athletics
Gladiator - Intimidation
Hunter - Survival
Laborer - Athletics
Merchant - Diplomacy
Noble - Society
Nomad - Medicine
Sailor - Acrobatics
Scholar - Arcane, Nature, Occultism or Religion (Whichever Assurance you pick)
Scout - Stealth
Street Urchin - Deception
Warrior - Athletics
This can allow for more customization for the classes and make the class skills be a little more meaningful.
I think reworking the existing signature skills would also be good. I don't know why performance is a sig. skill for rogues. That should be a Bard only unless you want to invest a background for it. I also think a Wizard should have more sig. skills and points (maybe all the 'knowledge' skills).
Right now the only class that can disable a trap or open a locked door is a rogue. I know that is what the class is for but having another option would be good.
That was true in PF1 when the only classes were the core classes. Now there are what, 39 classes in PF1? Some of which have roguish abilities. And all of which I'm sure we'll be seeing in PF2 eventually.