Summon monster now has concentration, which takes up an action which makes sense, but the summoned monster should get three actions not 2 as the spell is already much weaker than before.
I'm willing to see how the action penalties work out (summoning was very strong in PF1, this might be an overcorrection, but it might not too), but I am disappointed they didn't go with the SF summoning spell. I really liked how it worked in Starfinder.
I imagine space might have been an issue, but still.
Summoning in PF was really only good if you were a summoner otherwise not that great at all.
As someone who has seen summoning from other classes you are incorrect, sir.
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Yeah, the OP has apaprently never seen what a summon optimized Wizard can do.
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
My only issue right now with the Summon Monster list is that it doesn't have nearly enough Good Outsiders, no Angel summoners :(
I truly hope it's just an artifact of what could be fit in the Bestiary.
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Unfortunately there are no good outsiders in the Playtest Bestiary.
And to be exact, there are no outsider at all in the bestiary. That term not to be part of the game anymore. While mentioned twice in flavor text, non of the "former outsider" creatures has it as a trait, where the old creature types now go. There is Devil, Demon, Genie, Elemental, but none of those are listed as Outsiders.
Makes sense to be honest since good creatures are rarely assumed to be enemies to PCs so not including them in bestiary for playtest is consistent. It does lead to that as result they can't be in playtest summon monster list either
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote: My only issue right now with the Summon Monster list is that it doesn't have nearly enough Good Outsiders, no Angel summoners :(
I truly hope it's just an artifact of what could be fit in the Bestiary.
I have been playing D&D in some form for 35 years so I have seen optimized everything and summon monster has never been an awesome spell specialization for any class. Druids and summon nature's Ally came close but the summoner with the 1 hour/level summon ability finally made it viable.
1 minute per level. Which made it viable outside of combat. I have seen what a Cleric and Sorcerer can do with Summon Monster though, so clearly our experiences differ.
Mindblowing - it's when reading threads like these that I wonder if I've been playing the same game. There's almost no challenge in 3x and PF1 that could not be spammed out of existence with repeated SMI-IX. The guides floating out there outlining how to address any challenge presented with summoning work all too well. There's a reason the conjurer is frequently reffered to as "god." I'm pleased they finally flushed that floater of spell was downward.
Summon Monster is just using the same rules as animal companions and other minions now. At level 14 Sorcerer and Wizards can take the automatic concentrate feat to get rid of the burden on their actions, at least.
In addition to the rules for summoning I would like added that all summoned monsters are not immediately friendly to the Summoner. I'd like that after summoning a monster an attempted to charm the monster in order to Bring the monster under the control of the Summoner should have to be made. Summoned monsters should have some ability to break free of the control of the Summoner in the same way that any true creature would have a chance to liberated self from the spellcasters control.
Noesis wrote: In addition to the rules for summoning I would like added that all summoned monsters are not immediately friendly to the Summoner. I'd like that after summoning a monster an attempted to charm the monster in order to Bring the monster under the control of the Summoner should have to be made. Summoned monsters should have some ability to break free of the control of the Summoner in the same way that any true creature would have a chance to liberated self from the spellcasters control. ...why?
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Hahaha oh man, greenbound summoner feat more than made summoning a valid choice in 3.5. Sure it was still a full round spell but all animal summons having +6str (and +2 to most other stats), dr10/magic AND slashing, and free spell like abilities was stupidly good for a feat that required no pre-req feats. PF went the opposite route and gave options to summon as standard actions with certain feats which I think made it a valid choice and superior summons has some crazy applications too.
As for PF2 I really like the way it set up summons. It is still a full (non-hasted) turn to cast but now it happens on the end of your turn instead of continuing onto the start of your next turn (and thus being interruptible). It follows the same rules as animal companions in terms of action economy (better if you get the feat to bypass concentration) which is nice because it keeps rules consistent. It is also a fair trade since it doesn't add to your multi-attack penalty (unlike spiritual weapon/guardian) and trades 1 of your actions for 2 of the summon's/companion's.
I think my only concern is how weak the summons are. Due to the +lvl scaling having your summons be cr your lvl-4 makes them feel really weak and makes their spells more likely to be crit saved against. I need to do more testing to see how they actually compare and would like to hear how you all feel on the subject.
Use Headbutt!! wrote: Hahaha oh man, greenbound summoner feat more than made summoning a valid choice in 3.5. Sure it was still a full round spell but all animal summons having +6str (and +2 to most other stats), dr10/magic AND slashing, and free spell like abilities was stupidly good for a feat that required no pre-req feats. PF went the opposite route and gave options to summon as standard actions with certain feats which I think made it a valid choice and superior summons has some crazy applications too.
As for PF2 I really like the way it set up summons. It is still a full (non-hasted) turn to cast but now it happens on the end of your turn instead of continuing onto the start of your next turn (and thus being interruptible). It follows the same rules as animal companions in terms of action economy (better if you get the feat to bypass concentration) which is nice because it keeps rules consistent. It is also a fair trade since it doesn't add to your multi-attack penalty (unlike spiritual weapon/guardian) and trades 1 of your actions for 2 of the summon's/companion's.
I think my only concern is how weak the summons are. Due to the +lvl scaling having your summons be cr your lvl-4 makes them feel really weak and makes their spells more likely to be crit saved against. I need to do more testing to see how they actually compare and would like to hear how you all feel on the subject.
Agree with everything said, really do like the balance that has been struck with this spell, and the one problem of somewhat weaker creatures for it. Its not the worst at lower levels {there attacks and abilities are not as likely to work as your own, but your getting to trade one action for two, along with a wall of HP, and flanking potential which seems fair, and once the full bestiary is out, were more likely to get more options, and therefore be able to summon a more ideal monster to the situation at hand, making it more effective.) The real problem comes past level 16, has your not gaining new spell levels, and with it, higher level monsters to summon. At level 16, the level 13 Ice Devil {at least from what I have seen} can still do a good enough job for the creatures you are facing to make summoning viable {with all the benefits mentioned above}. At level 19, however, your still stuck with the Ice devil, and most likely can't do a lot with it to the creatures your normally facing {meaning those creatures will most likely ignore it as its not a threat, and you would be spending a 9th level spell and an action each round to keep it up. You may be able to still do the flanking, and possibly even use it to move you friends around with a carry and move action, but this can be achieved with lower level versions of the spell.) Now you can summon a Level 15 Phoenix with a 10th level slot {if you get one that is} but this is at level 20, where the Phoenix is still shaky against the creatures you would be facing, and your using your one 10th level slot instead of using it on a 10th level spell {time stop, wish, ect).
On a brighter note, the Valkyrie as healing if you really need it {useful because its not reliant on the foes your facing, and it may be worth the trade of a 9th level spell slot for 3 level 6 Heals and 1 Breath of Life if you are desperate, and the Lifesense can be helpful in a pinch.) and the Air Elementals have the ability to shove foes {with its Breath Weapon} , say off a cliff or into a Prismatic Wall (mentioning partly because of it decent range, but mostly because even on a success {but not a critical} it still pushes victims 10 feet, making it decent even at higher levels if you can set up the situation.)
Siro wrote:
On a brighter note, the Valkyrie as healing if you really need it {useful because its not reliant on the foes your facing, and it may be worth the trade of a 9th level spell slot for 3 level 6 Heals and 1 Breath of Life if you are desperate,
Unfortunately Breath of Life is a reaction casting action, so summons can't cast it.
Xenocrat wrote: Siro wrote:
On a brighter note, the Valkyrie as healing if you really need it {useful because its not reliant on the foes your facing, and it may be worth the trade of a 9th level spell slot for 3 level 6 Heals and 1 Breath of Life if you are desperate,
Unfortunately Breath of Life is a reaction casting action, so summons can't cast it. Good catch, I was just skimming through the list/monster Summon tables, and I guess I still had the PF1 mechanics for 'Breath of Life' in my head. The Valkyrie still has the 3 level 6 Heals {which can still be useful}, but it goes down a peg without the "Bring back a friend who just died' option.
Summoned monsters were never a big deal. They were always super weak for combat and unless you could get lots of them on the field they were at best flankers. While fairly versatile they were by no means overpowered. Summoners are fairly useful in that their summoned monsters last a long time, but they are still pitiful combatants. In addition the extra actions (especially if a small army was summoned) could take a while but I never encountered a player that cared.
Time consuming..yes... overpowered hardly.
PF2 summons have insufficient duration, you can't get enough out there to be useful and are therefore pointless. If this is the direction paizo wants to go (1 tougher monster, short duration takes an action) the summoned monster needs to be much more powerful.
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