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This is just me putting down a point of concern in PF2.0 for a class that I dearly love to play.
I have been playing some D&D5ed and Starfinder Society games recently and it struck me that both of these games restrict the cleric/mystic class domains(Connections in SF) severely compared to PF1.0
This leads to a huge lack of diversity in character options for these classes in those games.
In PF1.0 the cleric is a very diverse class. No 2 cleric characters are exactly alike. Even if 2 clerics worship the same deity, they can have different domains, making each a unique character.
So while 2 clerics might have the same fire domain, their other domain can make them very different characters. One can be a buffer, the other a damage dealer, etc.
This is not the case in 5ed and to some extend SFS.
In 5ed, clerics only have 1 domain. While this makes character creation easy, it means there is effectively no difference between making a War Domain cleric of 1 deity vs another. They will end up largely the same. Its the same for being a light domain cleric of a deity of the sun is mechanical no difference from a deity of beauty that also gives the light domain. You end up with the same character/role.
This 1 domain restriction also means that the domain you pick WILL end up shoehorning you into a given a role. A Light domain cleric for example, will end up being seen as a caster cleric, cos that is what that domain is all about, same for a war domain being seen as a weapon user and so forth.
In SF, the 1 connection option for the Mystic, kinda leads to this same effect. In this case, the Mystic works kinda more like a Oracle in may ways. Still each Connection kinda restrict your role, not as much as 5ed's, but its still there.
I hope that the cleric in PF2.0 give us just as much options as in PF1.0.
Please make it great! And don't water it down for the sake of simplicity.
I didn't know that was a thing they were doing. I'll wait for deadman's post so he can clear it up.
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Much of the cleric info is out. They start with only one domain, but:
At 1st level, you might pick Communal healing so when you cast heal to tend to a creature other than yourself, you regain some Hit Points too, or you might take Turn Undead, which forces undead that critically fail their saves against your heal spells to flee from you. (This works great with the 3-action version of heal!) You could also pick Expanded Domain to explore your deity's domains further, gaining the initial power from a different domain than the first one you chose. You can select this feat twice, letting you delve into a maximum of three domains!
At higher levels, you gain new cleric feats at every even level, except levels 12 and 16, when you increase your spell DCs instead. At 4th level, you might pick up Advanced Domain to gain the advanced power from one of your domains.
You can get as many as 3 domains (but you need to use 1 feat for each domain beyond the first).
Secane, did you check out the Cleric blog and the Domains blog? There's a ton of info there, showing that the PF2 cleric has a great many more options than his PF1 colleague.
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You can get as many as 3 domains (but you need to use 1 feat for each domain beyond the first).
Secane, did you check out the Cleric blog and the Domains blog? There's a ton of info there, showing that the PF2 cleric has a great many more options than his PF1 colleague.
I think I misses those.
I just read them and I think most of my fears are answered. Whew!
Sorry if I posted this thread in haste. I was told PF2.0 only gave 1 domain to clerics and after realizing what that means in 5ed, I kinda freak out!
Thanks for pointing me to the links!
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first research, then panicked posting ;)
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Yes, Clerics only get one domain starting out, but can get up to three with feat investment. It's a bit of a tax if you want to play a three domain Cleric (then again, archetypes may grant a fix to this). I'd rather they start with two and have the option of a third with a feat, but that might frontload Clerics a little too much (hence why they decided to put the extra domains behind feat walls).
However, those domains are still selected from a pool provided by a chosen Deity, so that doesn't change the original paradigm from PF1.
As for domains shoehorning into certain roles, that's not necessarily true. Domains can be used to emphasize certain aspects of your character, or they can be used to grant diversity to an otherwise homogenous character. A Cleric with the Light domain may want some casting options in the event his melee options are ineffective. For example, versus Shadows.
Granted, if the old addage of "Pathfinder rewards specialization" is still even somewhat true, players may just want to double-down on their one-trick pony character, in which case, that's more-or-less a personal choice, and not something that is "shoehorned" onto players, unlike things like anathemas or built-in options. (Maybe there's a Cleric archetype that eschews domains entirely for something else, who knows?)
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It's also worth noting that grabbing additional Domains gives you extra Spell Points, so even if the only Domain Power you want to use most days is Fire Bolt (because throwing fire is your thing), you might still want to buy Extra or Advanced Domains just so you can do it more often (and can use the other Domain powers in a pinch as well).
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Also, this is kind of a double-edged sword but domains don't give multiple things in PF2 like they do in PF1, SF or 5E. They don't even give spell access. Taking a domain, or an advanced domain ability, only gives you one single ability and that's it. They aren't as important or defining (or to me, interesting) anymore.
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I agree the spell access being just a small pool that is specific to each deity makes customization more limited.
Most of the issues I was freaking out about has been resolved in the 2 blog post. But Spells being tied to deity is kinda scaring me. Cos it could limit character customisation and make certain deities more attractive then others for certain builds in a bad way.
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A choice between four different options at first level, and ten further choices to select up to an additonal five of seven other options as you level up is limiting customization?
If the devs went the route you suggested in the eminent domain blog, I would rather they just don't have domains at all.
Would it be possible for Deities to give multiple spell options at each level?
To avoid a deity becoming too 1 tracked and ending up being "that" deity that give so and so.
Like if deity starts giving a bunch of damage spells, then won't that shoehorn that deity as the go to deity for making an offensive caster cleric?
But if a deity have a selection of spells at each level, then Clerics can pick the spells they want to use to make them unique.
I agree it will limit choices and guide clerics of certain deities towards certain builds. That's kind of the point. In the fullness of splatbooks, I'm certain we'll have ways to further customize choices, like a separatist cleric or a heretical cleric that allows you to choose domains beyond the main ones for your chosen deity, but for now I think a smaller pool of choices for the playtest is best.
Seriously, one moment he complains "all fire domain clerics are the same" then he complains that dieties grant powers independent of domains, i.e. two gods both with fire domains would be very different. Since it's all based on Feats, even if you choose fire domain and same god, there is many different possibilities. Now Channel is de-locked from Alignment as well. Re: "small pool" of Deity spells I believe that's confirmed as also being expandable via Feat? (Enhanced Deific Spells? Which could go in multiple routes/ multiple Feats eventually/splat)
So back to first post, P2E is already not just equaling but surpassing P1E "diversity".
Reposting from the other thread: I don't think that is super relevant, since domain slots aren't a thing anymore. Deity spells are just added to the list of spells you can prepare as normal. Assuming the cleric spell list is comparable to PF1, there should be plenty of variety there. The deity spells are just gravy.
I don't see why you should get additional spells if the spells are thematically linked to your deity-- you are supposed to embody their principles, but you can never prepare those spells if you don't want to.