I don't know if this is just me. I'm on the fence, realizing I don't think I'm having fun with one of my campaigns.
Currently I'm in two games, one Pathfinder and on Starfinder (which used to be Pathfinder but we lost an AP book midway so had to change until we can recover a copy... And our GM gets a new tablet). The Pathfinder game is the one in question. I've talked about it before there's a problem player. Needs to be the best, thrust himself into everything so on. I talked with the GM and it has been mildly addressed, but the current situation today was walking away from the table and realizing I don't think I had fun.
In a combat situation, looking at an amount of it in a vacuum, most of our combats seem to be against one or two fairly tough targets. I think our biggest threat had AC 20 and a good amount of health. Looking at our four team members, I deal 2d3+4 with 2 +7 attacks as a TWF Finesse character. I could weild something better than fists but it's the build I chose. I'm one of the two major combat characters. Our cleric deals 1d6+1 on a +4 attack, so she'll rarely hit, but she's the cleric. Our now mesmerist, at two negative levels due to ressurection this session can deal 1d8+1+1d6 at a +4 I believe. As he just respeced the character this session I'm not sure. The problem character deals between 3d6+7 to 3d6+11 (or potentially higher) with a +11 to +18 somehow attack bonus. We enter a combat against these single opponents and literally the fight is just him. I wonder sometimes why the rest of us are around.
Now this could be a problem with the Shattered Star adventure path, or it could be our GM pulling punches. Either way, we have one character who dominates combat (and has DR and other defensive abilities that pretty much negate his damage too).
Comparatively, I look at my other game(s). When it was Pathfinder, I was wizard and could deal some pretty decent damage around the same level, but our gunslinger was the big damaging force, firing against touch with +8 for 1d12+4. That still doesn't feel close. Now that it's Starfinder damage is definitely different, but there's the same type of gap. With our guns we deal about 1d4 to 1d6 damage average, spells go as high as 2d10 and our big melee guy gets about 1d4+6 on a good hit at first level (though he has more weapons to pick from, he could do more if the situation needed). Despite the big jump in that game though, we're fighting groups of 4-6 enemies at a time. Even if he takes on two at once in melee, the rest of us still do something, and damage in Starfinder goes up with new weapons and other abilities so in the long run it'll balance out I think. We'll see when we're not level 1 and the rest of us have BAB +1 instead of 0 and all the issues therein.
So I dunno. Is everyone in my Pathfinder game just underpowered except for the broken character? Is the disparity between Str based characters and Dex based that extreme? Are there other people who have had similar cases where one character just bowls everything over and everyone else is a towel boy? I dunno, need advice/not advice before I take the final straw and possibly leave the game.
What classes are involved in this game? I know you mentioned Cleric and Mesmerist, but I didn't see any others. I might just be blind...
What classes are involved in this game? I know you mentioned Cleric and Mesmerist, but I didn't see any others. I might just be blind...
I'm playing a Vigilante, though not entirely optimized. If all my feat choices had gone to combat feats, and I did not have an archtype, I could have gone as high as maybe 2d3+10 damage with both hits, though I would have significantly fewer hit points and wouldn't be able to do what I'm aiming to do. The other class is a barbarian. It also might be important that these characters are currently level 5.
Sounds like a barbarian with a butchering axe, a base 20 STR, Power Attack, and Furious Focus.
You have one min/maxed player in a group where nobody else put much consideration into optimization.
The best course of action is to discuss this as a group, otherwise the disparity and dissatisfaction will only continue to grow.
Sounds like a barbarian with a butchering axe, a base 20 STR, Power Attack, and Furious Focus.
You have one min/maxed player in a group where nobody else put much consideration into optimization.
The best course of action is to discuss this as a group, otherwise the disparity and dissatisfaction will only continue to grow.
Those damage calcs were without Power Attack, which he does have. You're close though. Half-Giant (literally the only third party character at the table), so large-size greatsword with no penalty, a Str of 19 before rage, and a shard of sin (as per Shattered Star, but I will avoid spoilers).
I have attempted to take about it at the table, he took it as myself having an issue not being the strongest as I chose to point buy. Though point buying I am on par with our Mesmerists rolled stats, so really even when you consider rolling it's just him freakishly needing to be above everyone. His response was and I quote "I don't care what you think. Just because I rolled good, I'm not going to change it because you're jealous.". He also rolled the cleric's character as she was a bit new, and she stands a little above but not nearly to the same game-breaking degree, and prior we had a ranger who again, rolled on par with 20 point buy but she left the table.
Mind you, this is both his, and my, second characters at this table. His first character was a non-CR adjusted Drow Noble Rogue, arguing that by giving up their spells that was balance enough to not have the CR adjustment. Yet somehow he still had permanent Detect Magic. My own first character was a 15 point buy Gunslinger whom I had to abandon when I brought up the issue that his Drow was literally holding the other members of the party hostage as his stats were so high as well as his spell resistance we couldn't stop him when he would grab you by the neck and offer you as a bargaining chip. And the cherry, the Drow Noble was also rolled ridiculous high stats, his Dex capping something like 22+? I don't remember.
So overall, this is a conversation that has happened before, and has been talked about but I cannot see being dealt with any other way than myself leaving. With the new knowledge they're already aiming to replace the ranger's player with someone wanting to play another Half-Giant Samurai. Which from the sounds of it our barbarian's player will more or less be building, so I'm expecting another munchkin-y character.
Well, you're probably better than the Barbarian outside of combat, no?
It's going to be hard for you to deal as much, or close to as much damage as a Two-Handed Weapon Wielding Barbarian. The Barbarian steamrolls as far as martials go, from what I'm aware of at least. I mostly play Fighters and at Level 5 I can easily deal 2d4+15 or 2d6+15(STR+Power Attack) damage with a fair chance to hit, as well(something like +11(BAB(+5) + STR(+5) + Weapon Training(+1) + Weapon Enhancement(+1) + Weapon Focus(+1) - Power Attack(-2)).
How does he get +18 to AB? That seems a little too much for a Level 5 Barbarian. And how does he have 3d6 damage? Is his weapon Large? Or does he enlarge himself somehow? Or does the Cleric Enlarge him?
EDIT: Okay. I read your post above. Yeah, seems like they're optimizing quite a lot for combat. Well, that sucks. I guess all you can do is say what you want to say, and if they don't do anything about it. Leave. Or you can tolerate it and hope for a better tomorrow. :P
But I bet him will save sucks, eh?
Ok, the big question, is the player a jerk also?
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And for future reference. I suggest you just do Point-Buy. It's much more fair that way, and this kind of stuff doesn't happen as frequently then. I remember me and my group doing rolled stats in a homemade campaign once. The point-buy ranged from something like 24 to 47 or something. It's just sad when that happens.
But I bet him will save sucks, eh?
Ok, the big question, is the player a jerk also?
He probably has the Superstitious Rage Power. :P
How does he get +18 to AB?
I'm not 100%, but I'll tell you what I know.
BAB +5, STR +4 = +9 Base
Magic Weapon +1, Shard of Sin (Gluttony) +1 = +11 Base
From there, rage gives +4 to STR, so that's +2 more up to +13. Generally I'm used for flanking so that's another +2 to +15, and then I guess he has Superstitious and the Witchhunter society trait? I'm not 100% positive though. Today though he was swinging at +18 against a Glass Golem.
And for future reference. I suggest you just do Point-Buy. It's much more fair that way, and this kind of stuff doesn't happen as frequently then. I remember me and my group doing rolled stats in a homemade campaign once. The point-buy ranged from something like 24 to 47 or something. It's just sad when that happens.
I tried to get the GM to enforce point buy, but no avail. The big thing that the second I tell people they advise I drop the game, the problem player is the GM's husband, so if he suggests rolling because he wants to be better, it flies. She trusts him not to break things and he outright abuses it.
He probably has the Superstitious Rage Power. :PBut I bet him will save sucks, eh?
Ok, the big question, is the player a jerk also?
He does have the superstitious rage power. Even so, his wisdom is 14, so no, he has a respectable Will save. Better than mine (my Wisdom is 7, I needed Cha, Con and Dex high for my build, and I was expected to be the skill character so Int, and the cool Vigilante finesse ability still needs Str to damage, so I was backed into a corner. Wis was the dump stat). Last time I wrote down his stats they were 18, 16, 16, 12, 14, 10. Comparatively, I'm 10, 18, 14, 10, 7, 16 and about on par with the majority of the group. Our Mesmerist recently got some nice stat buffs due to SPOILER but still, nowhere near the barb.
Hmmm... What do you wish to do with your character, btw? What's your concept?
Hmmm... What do you wish to do with your character, btw? What's your concept?
Terrible. Let it be known, I like to play characters who may be a little under the power curve or are fun and interesting rather than optimized and powerful.
Arachnid Wildsoul Vigilante, Drow was what I went in with. Drow Spiderman was just too silly of an idea for me to overlook. Breezing through Vigilante stuff, I found I wanted to work with Fist of the Avenger and Lethal Finesse, cause the idea of +1/2 level twice (FotA caps at +5 however, so max level it would be +15, not including anything else) to damage that wasn't reduced by the off-hand seemed fun.
From there, the Nightmare Fist feat line worked really good with going Drow Noble for at-will Darkness, so that's more damage and a cool fighting style, and from there Boar Style was the only style feat I could apply for. However +2d6 if you hit with two weapons, and the free intimidate with Boar Ferocity synergized really well with the Vigilante intimidate boosts.
So the end result is a darkness-casting fist-fighting intimidating character that's really fun in concept. Downside of course, is that with the Arachnid Wildsoul gaps you can't really get the base needs for the build until about level 8. Hint with optimization, the damage output would be higher. Raw Vigilante would be able to get the two necessary talents by level 4, and not needing Con for the use/day of the Wildsoul powers would mean the extra points that went to Con could instead be funneled into Str for even more damage. Hint the jump for 1d3+2 to 1d3+7 for the on-hand, with 1d3+5 for the off (due to 1/2 str on the off hand). It's also likely optimized that I'd already have Boar Style for the +2d6 rend if my feats hadn't gone to Weapon Finesse which will recieve automatic retraining when I can finally take Lethal Grace at 8.
I also wanted to prove that a drow noble could still be balanced, if you go the Advanced Race Guide feat route, and not pick the CR adjusted, broken race. As one of the problem player's justification was that the character needed to be a noble for his backstory to work.
If this bothers you, you should leave the table. This DM-player dynamic isn't going to change, so you're either comfortable with the status quo or not. There's third party characters, rolled character stats, finessing race-balancing rules, etc. It's not going to get better when the serious loot starts dropping levels 9-15.
But you need to look in the mirror--you're not playing the game that others want to play, which is kick in the door, beer and pretzels. This is Shattered Star, which is a LOT of dungeon crawling, so there really ought to be more focus on combat capability in character design. It's erring towards the tactical war gaming side of the system, but you've chosen to play a Vigilante. You're admitting to playing an underpowered concept character that doesn't fully come online until 8th level, but you're complaining of power-disparities at 5th level. You're supposed to be the skill monkey, but you're complaining about the barbarian being good at THE thing that character class does and what the party needs him to do.
Finally, you chose a race as a passive aggressive "take that!" to another player.
If you're going to stay at this table, pick a character that fits the game table: a buffer, an area effect specialist, a switch-hitting ranger, or whatever the party needs and step away from your role in creating drama.
But you need to look in the mirror--you're not playing the game that others want to play, which is kick in the door, beer and pretzels. This is Shattered Star, which is a LOT of dungeon crawling, so there really ought to be more focus on combat capability in character design. It's erring towards the tactical war gaming side of the system, but you've chosen to play a Vigilante. You're admitting to playing an underpowered concept character that doesn't fully come online until 8th level, but you're complaining of power-disparities at 5th level. You're supposed to be the skill monkey, but you're complaining about the barbarian being good at THE thing that character class does and what the party needs him to do.
Finally, you chose a race as a passive aggressive "take that!" to another player.
If you're going to stay at this table, pick a character that fits the game table: a buffer, an area effect specialist, a switch-hitting ranger, or whatever the party needs and step away from your role in creating drama.
I didn't entirely pick as a "take that". The Drow character was actually a character I played in 5e D&D. Daughter to the Melarn family who ran away... Long sad story, the game I was playing her in ended, and moving her to Pathfinder she would have been drow noble. It just doubled as a "take that", but was not the main intention. I had actually had the character built already when he forced me to switch. Because if you want to take passive aggressive, the only reason I had to change was because I was making him change the broken noble. He told me flat "I'm not changing characters unless you do too".
In addition, none of the players were given prior knowledge to what would be needed in Shattered Star. Before his rework the Mesmerist was an enchantment sorc with no offensive spells. His combat presence was the occasional bungle and a bloodline power that tanglefoot bagged. Even with his new character he is entirely social based. My original character was a gunslinger, a good combat focused character, but I wasn't allowed to be that anymore because I had an issue with a drow noble threatening members of the party.
And going back to the OP, there's disparity, and then there's no one else does anything in combat. Even if I were playing my other game's 7th level wizard, he would outdo her. And every other 7th level character that was in that party, gunslinger, slayer, fighter, all of them.
Out of combat, due to his high everything he's still raw better at most things and if we take more than about thirty seconds out of game to try and make a decision to what we want to do next, he just turns to the GM and says "I'm going" dragging everyone behind, and if you deny him that he proved today he doesn't care when the Mesmerist got the social floor for a little and he layed on the ground staring at the cieling.
What you're describing is a side-effect of the min/maxing. The game gets tilted towards that one character, and everyone else has to wait there turn. The thing is, the player hasn't done anything wrong, and the GM is ok with the build.
If it were me, as a GM I'd equip opponents with spells like Ray of Enfeeblement or Slow, and target the super strong PC. I wouldn't do this relentlessly, but I would make it a component of the game. It shouldn't be done to discourage the player, but the combat prowess could certainly draw a strategic response from the opposition. Stuff like this won't kill them, but it will change how they can engage the encounter.
I hope this helps. I've been in your situation before and its frustrating.
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I am playing the Hells Rebels AP and my Barbarian was WRECKING(still is) all the fights. We have a Vigilante as well. I think that he was getting a little annoyed that I was so good at combat. He altered his character and switched to the Shadow Dancer prestige class. Now he does nearly as much damage as I do. We both recently got the opportunist feat, now we just double team all the bads. We haven't had a combat last more than 2-3 rounds in awhile. Now the GM is the one who is getting annoyed and finally starting nerfing our characters in small ways so that we don't just steamroll the game. Nothing big, he just isn't allowing our cleric to make our own magic items and nixed a few of the magic items that we want to buy.
I suggest switching up your character to fit the game better, rather than complaining about the other guy, or bow out gracefully so you don't start ruining everyone else's fun with grumbling. You will end up turning into the annoying guy if you aren't careful.
Also, the Vigilante is a fun concept, but the actual usefulness and playability is pretty lousy if the GM doesn't throw you a bone and change the AP in little ways to accommodate you. For instance, our GM allowed our player to create a Batman like persona who patrols the docks of Kintargo, sow dissent among Thrune allys and allowed him to print and distribute his own proclamations in direct competition with the ones that were being released by the baddies. This was all way beyond what the AP called for and it made the game more fun and immersive for all of our characters.
Those damage calcs were without Power Attack, which he does have. You're close though. Half-Giant (literally the only third party character at the table), so large-size greatsword with no penalty, a Str of 19 before rage, and a shard of sin (as per Shattered Star, but I will avoid spoilers).Sounds like a barbarian with a butchering axe, a base 20 STR, Power Attack, and Furious Focus.
You have one min/maxed player in a group where nobody else put much consideration into optimization.
The best course of action is to discuss this as a group, otherwise the disparity and dissatisfaction will only continue to grow.
A large greatsword should be doing 2d8 not 3d6
FAQ.
And yes, a 3rd party source used to really min/max will dominate the table.
After consideration I ended up deciding to leave. Honestly, the one thing keeping me staying really was liking my character and wanting to see her through. However if Shattered Star really is just a dungeon crawl AP then really I'm going to continue having a bad time. I was hoping the story would pick up a little in book three, cause there were some fun and interesting little bits that I got to do in the two books we did play, but from what I've heard overall from Pathfinder APs they just get more dungeon-y anyway in the last few books.
I went the polite route, just said I wasn't having fun with the game. No big explaination but if it's asked I'll give my two cents. I think largely I have way more of a problem with the barbarian's attitude and insecurity needing to be better than anyone than I do with a combat character being leagues better than my experimental one. I think this much is obvious when looking at my Starfinder group (which looking at that group, it's really clear I liked my character cause my SF character is also an Intimidate-focused character who uses fists) I'm playing a pretty much combat innept character next to half the party, especially the Vesk who out-damages everyone by leagues, but at that table we all went in with the same construction guidelines. There are things I can do that the beatstick can't, and as much as it brings a huge smile to his face when he caves in an enemy's skull, it's not gloating about how better he is.
Additionally, the GM was getting less and less... Caring? Like session 1 we got the minis out, drew the map, etc. but last night's session I think we had 2, 2.5 combats and of that there was one poorly drawn map, I was the only one who cared enough for a mini (since I bought and painted my own,, as I usually do) and the pawn collection didn't even come out (for the third week in a row). We've also missed more sessions than we've had, since she would cancel a week if even one person didn't arrive, and prior to a few weeks ago I would have to pester by about mid-week to ask if we were going to be playing or not. I had to actively as a few times to see the in-book maps so I had a general idea of what was happening things were going by so quickly.
Just between it all, I wasn't GM, so I wasn't in a position to change things, and prior attempts to address problems were generally met woth hostility. Whether favoritism or a lack of understanding on the GM's part (they were admittedly rusty after years away from the table when we started the game 6 months ago) nothing will be done about the problem player, and I'm going to continue having a problem with them. The path of least resistance is just to walk away, because I tried, and I'm clearly already taking part of what I loved elsewhere.
Those damage calcs were without Power Attack, which he does have. You're close though. Half-Giant (literally the only third party character at the table), so large-size greatsword with no penalty, a Str of 19 before rage, and a shard of sin (as per Shattered Star, but I will avoid spoilers).Sounds like a barbarian with a butchering axe, a base 20 STR, Power Attack, and Furious Focus.
You have one min/maxed player in a group where nobody else put much consideration into optimization.
The best course of action is to discuss this as a group, otherwise the disparity and dissatisfaction will only continue to grow.
A large greatsword should be doing 2d8 not 3d6
FAQ.
And yes, a 3rd party source used to really min/max will dominate the table.
You advance two steps on that chart when increasing size, not one. 2d6 becomes 3d6.
"If the size increases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and increase the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Small or lower (or is treated as Small or lower) or the initial damage is 1d6 or less, instead increase the damage by one step."
I can't help with the other stuff, but I can recommend two levels of brawler to save feats. Brawler's flurry stacks with improved TWF and skips the need for double slice.