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The Thread about what would you choose, Vampir or Lich, made me actually wonder — is there anything in RAW that indicates that a Lich HAS to be a rotted corpse?
transferring his soul into the receptacle and ... preparing his body for the transformation into undeath
This is the only line I can find, outside of the generic description, that indicates in some fashion what happens to the caster’s body as he or she becomes a Lich.
One could argue, I feel, that that “preparation” and the subsequent death (‘transfer of soul from living body to Phylactery’) need not necessarily be violent or superficially damaging. Thus, the freshly dead Lich, immediately upon animation into Lichdom, need not be in a rotting body.
If this is the case, then could one reasonably argue that for this or that particular Lich, during the unique-to-the-individual preparation of the body for transformation, the caster makes the physical body immune to the rotting or decaying process — like a Flesh Golem-constructor presumably does — making the Lich impervious to rot and decay?
Could you say, all in all, that by RAW you can make a Lich whose body would never decay even without casting Gentle Repose every 20 day’s or something?
In one Wrath of the Righteous there is a lich that keeps their body intact using the gentle repose tactic you suggest. In this case they still look a little off, but that might just be specific individual in question. But no, rotted corpse not required.
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The blush of youth ritual from the arcane society in Villain Codex was created by a vain and charismatic lich to help her keep up her Lex-Luthoresque philanthropist veneer. Take a look at the fun and I'm sure totally not evil ritual in action (she's the central fugure).
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I agree that it should be possible for a lich to keep themselves looking fresh, but I would expect it to involve some kind of additional cost or upkeep - or at the very least that the lich remain strongly motivated to keep up appearances over the centuries. If it was simple to make such preparations as part of becoming a lich, you would expect most liches to appear fresh and unrotted, which is counter to the usual depiction.
Love the idea of remaining presentable requiring repeated totally-not-evil rituals...
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Right,... but what I'm suggesting is that, maybe, when looking just at RAW, a Lich need not do transmutation rituals or illusion spells or necromantic rights to prevent (or mask) a rotting corpse -- that the living caster -- during the R&D stage of becoming a Lich -- can accomplish a body that will never rot or decay once it is a Lich -- like a vampire doesn't have to cast Gentle Repose or use Blush of Youth. It just doesn't rot.
If a much lesser caster can create a Flesh Golem that won't succumb to rot,... if there are corporeal undead such as vampires that don't rot, then a living caster can create a process of becoming a Lich that will not rot.
As per what RAW indicates or at least implies.
Is this true?
Ray, just remember that if you as a player have already convinced your DM to let you perform a ritual to transform into a lich, you're way, way, way beyond RAW. As numerous examples in the extant lore demonstrate, lichification rituals often go wrong, and even if you are convinced that your specially researched lich-with-a-view ritual will leave your human body intact, moist and welcoming, anything could easily go wrong. Your DM is more than able to tell you the various ways your ritual went wrong, even after you have obsessively detailed all the ways you'll prevent any errors.
There are no guarantees. And nothing in Paizo RAW that you can use to beat your DM over the head to let you get what you want.
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Yes, good point.
But I find it's even trickier when it's the DM explaining, justifying, it to the Players.
See, I'm the DM.
And I never considered a beauteous Lich until I saw the 'You wanna be a Vampire or Lich' Thread that just got, heh, Necromancied.
But now I'm considering it. An NPC Lich that, completely by the RAW, made it so his body wouldn't rot or decay when he became a Lich, just like a Vampire doesn't rot or decay. (And using RAW to justify such wicked little DM tricks is (occasionally) good. Albino Red Dragon, anyone? Half-Red Dragon Troll, anyone?)
I just wanna see if anyone else reads the RAW for the Lich Template and agrees that nothing (beyond the general description) indicates that a Lich's body rots or has to rot. (Is the 'general description' tantamount?)
Looking at the RAW, do Lich's bodies rot? ....It seems like one could argue, 'not necessarily' -- that's why I came here. It's interesting.
Is it always something that we just always assumed?
(And used to tricksy our Players: You see a zombie shambling toward the party; what do you do?... Then,... The "zombie" casts Quickened Cone of Cold and Time Stop.)
Has anyone brought up the fact that golarion ghouls actually get fresher the longer they don't eat humanoid flesh?
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I don't know if the language has been carried over into pathfinder. But originally (we're talking 2nd edition D&D). The transformation into a lich didn't change your appearance at all. The wizard (or cleric) could continue to eat and drink and if they did it would maintain their physical form. It then went on to explain that while a wizard could maintain their body, they typically didn't since eventually they would "forget" to eat and drink and as a result their body would start to decay after years of failing to consume anything.
It was also assumed that liches were only interested in advancing spell research. Why bother eating if it's just a waste of time and you have no plans to leave your tower when everything you want/need is right here. Even sending minions out to gather things was less about protecting themselves and more about not wanting to waste time leaving the tower.
If you are the GM, you can easily create a monster that is like a lich in every way but the appearance. Lich's appearance is flavor, not rules.
If you don't like giving your lich an extra ability (to look fresh) for no cost, you can make it cost an Arcane Discovery, a feat, or the Fear Aura ability. All of these seem like a good trade-off for me.
I recall that Van Richten's Guide to the Lich made some general declarative statements about lich appearance, but...
1. That was a product for Ravenloft, which was a D&D campaign setting and therefore not inherently germane to Pathfinder.
2. That book is 25 years old now.
I'd say roll with whatever you require- certainly, Arazni looks more like Sally from Nightmare Before Christmas than Azalin...
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Easiest way, in my opinion, would be an UnChained Rogue, stacking Eldritch Scoundrel and Underground Chemist.
You have a caster level, which you need to be CL 11, to even attempt the beginnings of becoming a Lich.
And, by level 12, you can take both the Preserved Organs and Mummification discoveries. If you wait until level 16, you can take Preserved Organs two more times for a total of 75% chance to negate critical hits and/or sneak attack.
I would imagine that you are set after this, no worries about maintaining your womanly figure as an immortal undead.
A bit old, but Undead Revisited (2011 I think) Said in the Lich Entry of Ecology:
Whether a wizard, a cleric, or another who has deliberately achieved undeath through one means or another, the lich is a creature held together by powerful magic. The magic of the lich staves off the effects of death and prevents the rotting of its flesh, but does little to protect the flesh from desiccation. Once the lich forsakes the pleasures of food and drink, its body loses the nourishment necessary to keep skin strong and supple, and soon the skin and muscles contract, snap, and wither. Fortunately, the lich does not need these to move; its flesh is mere decoration. Even when dealt a blow that would cripple a mortal, the lich has no fear of immobility, for its magical state keeps it fully ambulatory even on broken bones, as if its skeletal structure were held within a frame of invisible forces.
So like LordKailas said, the magic of the ritual doesn't make them rotting, forgetting to eat does.
I don't know if the language has been carried over into pathfinder. But originally (we're talking 2nd edition D&D). The transformation into a lich didn't change your appearance at all. The wizard (or cleric) could continue to eat and drink and if they did it would maintain their physical form. It then went on to explain that while a wizard could maintain their body, they typically didn't since eventually they would "forget" to eat and drink and as a result their body would start to decay after years of failing to consume anything.
It was also assumed that liches were only interested in advancing spell research. Why bother eating if it's just a waste of time and you have no plans to leave your tower when everything you want/need is right here. Even sending minions out to gather things was less about protecting themselves and more about not wanting to waste time leaving the tower.
Actually, and even a bit earlier, (AD&D1) Liches were still dead and decaying... 1st Ed lich Szass Tam had created a spell to maintain his body live looking, but eventually was discovered when he was prevented from using it in time too many times, and he started to look dead (if you can, check out the illo on thne 3.xx splatbook Unapproachable East, which depicts him fighting Rashemen)... but by the time of the original book Dreams of the Red Wizards, he looked normal still.
I guess a daily application of a first or second level preservation spell (NOT Gentle repose, that's incompatible with being an undead) could do the job.
There is the fleshy facade spell from the monster codex that just makes you look human.
I'll say it again, Gentle Repose only preserve DEAD bodies and body parts, NOT undead. it can't be cast as a preservation spell on an undead creature.
The Preserve Organs and Mummification Alchemist discoveries solve this issue entirely.
Also, eating a sandwich would solve this.
Even as an immortal undead, if you want to look fresh, having a meal is a small sacrifice.
If you forget to eat and rot, that's your own fault.
You don't have to worry about dispel or any of that nonsense, and there are even spells that create meals, so not having a meal shouldn't be an issue to someone dedicating their eternity to the study of magic.
What if eating is just very unpleasant?
You have to choose if being a rotten corpse forever is more unpleasant than eating a sandwich.
Or, see also: Preserved Organs/Mummification Alchemist discoveries.
Yep, that would, except of course liches tend to be high level full casters, i.e, clerics witches and wizards (are there lich sorcerers?)... and having to take 10 lvls of alchemist tends to send that out the window...
Actually, if you need a pretty undead, as an alternative to lichdom or becoming a vampire, you might consider a Baetriov.
"Baetriovs are unique occult vampires who use ancient vile rituals to store their life force in a pool of blood, which must be periodically refreshed by human sacrifice. So long as their blood wells remain fresh and intact, baetriovs can remain forever young and handsome"
I don't it's necessary to use "a different undead" or to even treat it as a different creature. There is the feat "Civilized Ghoulishness" that allows a ghoul to "appear fresh". There's little reason (especially as the gm) that you couldn't allow other undead to take the feat or something similar. The feat grants a mechanical benefit to disguise checks if you feel that it's unfair to allow the undead to "look alive" when "normal" examples of the undead in question don't tend to have this trait.
Of course, liches are supposed to be powerful spell casters. If they care about what they look like so much, just give them a higher level of disguise self, one that acts like major image in terms of how convincing it is.
Wouldn't a ring of substance get around the whole "doesn't remember to eat" thing?
No it wouldn't, ujndead don't need food, eating is just part of the routine of acting like a living being to pass for one. a ring of sustenance has no effect on an undead, and certainly none about its tendency to rot away.
Not eating sucks. Just ask Xykon, he flipped out because he can't drink coffee anymore.
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A DM wanting to have a human-seeming lich faces no difficulties. DM fiat is a thing, and all DMs I've ever known delighted in creating their own original or unique creatures from time to time.
It's also easily handwaved when you consider that a lich, as a high-level spellcaster, could easily have researched a unique spell or two to maintain their flesh beyond the veil of undeath. But just to keep things interesting, it would also be very cool to build in a drawback, like the lich appears moist and lively at all times *except* on the night of the summer and winter solstice (or something similar) so that the brave knight who marries his lich bride discovers the awful truth when he violates the admonition to never hold his (false) true love on a given night (or two) of the year.
Or allow someone to see the lich's "true form" as a withered skeletal undead atrocity only when viewing it through a magical prism created from a dragon's tear.
This is an interesting thread, and now that I've gone back and seen that it's a DM perspective thread, that changes everything. My advice to all DMs, though is to never, never, never make it trivially easy or without risk for a player to undertake transformation into an undead form, whether lich, vampire or whatever.