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So I love how we are coming up with ability scores now. Backgrounds look close to perfect for my tastes. But there's been a concern I have shared with many others that classes and ancestries will give you substantially less at low levels. I'd like to take a look at some information to see if this will be the case.
First off, let's consider what we know the Fighter gets at 1st level:
Attack of Opportunity
1 Fighter Feat
Presumably heavy armor and shield proficiency
Presumably Martial Weapon Proficiency
Now, for comparison, what do we know the Cleric gets at 1st level?
anathema
channel energy
Domain Power
Favored Weapon Proficiency
Signature Skill
Deity Spells
Divine spellcasting
Presumably some medium armor proficiency
Presumably simple weapon proficiency
1 Cleric Feat
That is... a crap ton of goodies for the cleric as first level. Yeah, a lot of it kind of gets packaged together under your Diety choice. But man, that is a robust class package.
I would suggest that there's probably a lot of other goodies that the Fighter, Rogue, and Alchemist get at 1st level that wasn't apparent in the blog. If there isn't, I imagine I will play a lot of clerics.
Now, let's talk about Ancestries. It looks like we only get 1 Ancestry feat at 1st level. Which would be fine, except a lot of them sound like racial traits we got for free, about 5 of them at level 1. If our 5 ancestry feats just put us where 5 racial traits had us at level 1... That would be lame.
But! Let's compare what we know races DO get at level 1. First up, the Halfling:
Small Size
20 foot move speed
8 hit points
Now, the Dwarf gets:
20 Foot Move Speed
Not slowed down by armor
Dark Vision
10 Hit points
Once armor enters the picture, the dwarf is effectively faster, tougher, and can see in the dark. We have nothing to suggest advantages for being small, just that damage dice aren't reduced anymore. But even if small size is a boon... Goblins also look better than the halfling, although they are slightly less durable. They have:
Small Size
25 foot move speed
6 hit points
Dark Vision
I will pay 2 hit points at level 1 for dark vision and extra speed, thank you very much.
It seems unlikely to me that Paizo will be able to balance these ancestry disparities by, say, giving Halflings better ancestry feats across the board than goblins and dwarves have. So this suggest to me that we don't know the full extent of racial abilities at level 1.
Maybe Paizo was still ironing things out on ancestry balance or fighter features. Maybe the Cleric's 1st level was so much more detailed because that blog dropped much closer to the playtest being completed and going off to formatting. Whatever the case, it seems like either the balance is completely borked OR 1st level won't look as barren as we feared.
Personally, I'm inclined to give Paizo the benefit of the doubt on this one. :) Thinking through this has helped chill me out a little about what I thought might be the weakest point of 2e, so I thought I would share it with the board.
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After background blog my fears are not as assuaged as yours. Though I can only temper expectations until the actual playtest drops.
After background blog my fears are not as assuaged as yours. Though I can only temper expectations until the actual playtest drops.
What fears? I suspect if they are related to backgrounds you and I just have very different fears.
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Of course if you look at it in those terms in current PF the discrepancies are the same.
We don't really know about BAB or saves yet (or if we do, I missed it). So leaving them aside:
Fighter advantage:
1hp (d10 vs d8)
Heavy armor, tower shields
Bonus combat feat
Cleric advantage
Spells
Cantrips
Channel energy
Domain
Aura
Spontaneous casting
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It looks like we only get 1 Ancestry feat at 1st level. Which would be fine, except a lot of them sound like racial traits we got for free, about 5 of them at level 1. If our 5 ancestry feats just put us where 5 racial traits had us at level 1... That would be lame.
You never got racial traits for free in PF1. Anything the halfling or dwarf or others got had an opportunity cost: That of not being a human. That cost was steep: 1 feat, and 1 skill point per level. It's also why, mechanically, humans were considered the best or among the best choices for every class.
That said, if the ancestry feats were equal to the old racial traits but spread over the course of multiple levels, that would be lame indeed. But, from the little that's been shown so far, it doesn't seem to be the case at all. Among the couple of ancestry feats we know of:
- Discerning Smell allows a gnome to find invisible creatures.
- Nimble Feet gives the elf an extra 5ft of movement and ignores 1 square of difficult terrain per move.
- Lucky Halfling gives a reroll per day on a skill or save.
- Ancestral Longevity gives an elf training in a skill, that can be changed daily.
- The dwarf's poison resistance wasn't described in detail but it looks like it's much more than just a flat save bonus.
- Elves and gnomes can pick a cantrip. These were often negligible in PF1, but they now scale with level, so they should remain useful throughout one's career.
These ancestry feats look pretty beefy when compared with most PF1 racial traits (there were exceptions, but those were both rare and poorly balanced). So, I don't see any reason to be worried. Ancestries look like they will be at least as important and interesting in PF2 as races were in PF1, but there will be several feat choices for us to do with them as the character progresses, allowing for more meaningful diversification.
We do know how BAB is going to work. Fighter is trained and expert in all martial weapons, while Cleric is only trained in one (or a simple weapon promoted to martial effectiveness). Fighter has +1 attack (+2 at third level) and can pick up good loot weapons. The Cleric will be dealing less base damage with all but one weapon.
Fighter also has 2 hp more than Cleric, not 1. There's no d10 or d8; it's just 10hp/level and 8hp/level.
Cleric's anathema is not a "feature"; it's a roleplay restriction. Cleric's signature skill just means that one of Cleric's skills depends on deity; Fighter will be getting skills too. Deity spells are a small expansion of options, and may not even do anything at first level.
I think this is why Cleric starts out with one domain- it would take their feat to get the second one, representing Fighter's extra feat at first level. Channeled energy is similar, but there's no spontaneous casting option. Cantrips are more powerful, but Cleric gets less regular casting. Overall, compared to PF1, the Fighter is getting a distinct combat advantage over a battle Cleric: they get AoOs.
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I really do wish ancestries had more baked in things into them, especially since ancestries allow a larger range of concepts than, say...race.
In my mind everything biology or at least mostly biological should be baked in. Cultural things like Dwarven hatred and what have you should be gained via the ancestry feats.
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I'm a little worried about Ancestry myself (though I think we should wait and see the actual rules before worrying too much), but not about Class. The actual differences between Clerics and Fighters are more like this:
Fighter:
1 Fighter Feat
Trained Heavy Armor and Shield Proficiency
Trained in Martial Weapons
Expert Proficiency in one weapon category (like Swords)
Expert Perception Proficiency
Signature Skills (these seem universal, just what they're calling this Edition's Class Skill equivalent)
Attack of Opportunity
+2 to an Ability (probably a choice of Str or Dex, or so I'd hope)
Cleric:
1 Cleric Feat
Trained in Medium Armor
Trained in Simple Weapons
Trained Perception Proficiency
Channel Energy
Domain Power
Favored Weapon Proficiency
Signature Skills
Deity Spells
Divine Spellcasting
+2 Wis
We know pretty much all of that for sure (the respective Perception Proficiencies are in the Glass Cannon Podcast, for example).
That's 11 Class Features on the Cleric's list to the Fighter's 8, but honestly, Deity Spells just adds a single spell to their list, and the Fighter has notably better armor and weapon selections, while also getting +1 to hit (actually, +2 because of the Fighter Ability Bonus), AoO, and a higher Perception Proficiency. So it's less that the Fighter has less stuff and more that it's consolidated in being really good at a few things.
That list really doesn't look too bad for the Fighter, IMO.
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I would just like for you to get 2 Ancestry feats at level 1. Seems pretty weird that I can be Hardy by nature of my family tree, but that none of that family's culture influences me until I get another feat.
Agreed. It should be 2, so we're not forced between taking the Heritage Feat that is 1st level only and the other Ancestry Feat that perhaps seems super important to our character's story.
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I would just like for you to get 2 Ancestry feats at level 1. Seems pretty weird that I can be Hardy by nature of my family tree, but that none of that family's culture influences me until I get another feat.Agreed. It should be 2, so we're not forced between taking the Heritage Feat that is 1st level only and the other Ancestry Feat that perhaps seems super important to our character's story.
I agree with this completely.
If theres only one ancestry feat I am prolly gonna houserule a second one, shouldn't shake up the balance too much
I'm a little worried about Ancestry myself (though I think we should wait and see the actual rules before worrying too much), but not about Class. The actual differences between Clerics and Fighters are more like this:
Fighter:
1 Fighter Feat
Trained Heavy Armor and Shield Proficiency
Trained in Martial Weapons
Expert Proficiency in one weapon category (like Swords)
Expert Perception Proficiency
Signature Skills (these seem universal, just what they're calling this Edition's Class Skill equivalent)
Attack of Opportunity
+2 to an Ability (probably a choice of Str or Dex, or so I'd hope)Cleric:
1 Cleric Feat
Trained in Medium Armor
Trained in Simple Weapons
Trained Perception Proficiency
Channel Energy
Domain Power
Favored Weapon Proficiency
Signature Skills
Deity Spells
Divine Spellcasting
+2 WisWe know pretty much all of that for sure (the respective Perception Proficiencies are in the Glass Cannon Podcast, for example).
That's 11 Class Features on the Cleric's list to the Fighter's 8, but honestly, Deity Spells just adds a single spell to their list, and the Fighter has notably better armor and weapon selections, while also getting +1 to hit (actually, +2 because of the Fighter Ability Bonus), AoO, and a higher Perception Proficiency. So it's less that the Fighter has less stuff and more that it's consolidated in being really good at a few things.
That list really doesn't look too bad for the Fighter, IMO.
That's a great break down. Would it be possible for you to do one for the PF1 Fighter and Cleric?
That's a great break down. Would it be possible for you to do one for the PF1 Fighter and Cleric?
PF1 Fighter receives:
1 Combat FeatTrained Heavy Armor and Shield Proficiency
Trained in Martial Weapons
+1 BAB
10 hp
Class skills Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), Profession, Ride, Survival, and Swim.
2+Int skill ranks
+2 to Fortitude saves, i.e., good Fortitude save.
175 gp average wealth
(everyone gets Attack of Opportunity)
PF1 Cleric recieves:
Trained in Medium Armor and Shields
Trained in Simple Weapons and diety's Favored Weapon
Alignment Aura
Channel energy 1d6
Orisons 3/day
Cleric Spells 1 first-level per day, and a likely bonus spell per day
Two domains offering two domain powers and sharing one bonus spell per day
Spontaneous casting of Cure Light Wounds
+0 BAB
8 hp
Class skills Appraise, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility), Knowledge (planes), Knowledge (religion), Linguistics, Profession, Sense Motive, and Spellcraft.
2+Int skill ranks
+2 to Fortitude saves, i.e., good Fortitude save.
+2 to Will saves, i.e., good Will save.
140 gp average wealth
(everyone gets Attack of Opportunity)
The fighter's advantage over the cleric are 1 combat feat and better weapons, armor, BAB, hit points, and wealth. The fighter's extra 35 gp will go toward buying the better armor and weapons, which limits how much better they can be. The cleric's advantage over the fighter is channeling energy, 3 orisons, two or three 1st-level spells, two domain powers, more class skills, and better Will saves. That sounds approximately balanced given the weakness of the orisons and domain powers. I don't recall anyone complaining of an imbalance at 1st level.
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Is it weird if I think most people having to buy back attacks of opportunity doesn't make anyone weaker? Because attacks of opportunity being the norm hurts various people a lot. Melee guys want to be more mobile, ranged and casters don't want to be provoking it they wind up in close range.
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Is it weird if I think most people having to buy back attacks of opportunity doesn't make anyone weaker? Because attacks of opportunity being the norm hurts various people a lot. Melee guys want to be more mobile, ranged and casters don't want to be provoking it they wind up in close range.
I used to play a barbarian with Mobility feat and lots of hit points. Her tactics against a Large foe was to run past the creature to provoke an attack of opportunity and make an untrained combat maneuver against the creature to test for Combat Reflexes. Then the low-hp rogue could safely step up into the flank my barbarian provided for a sneak attack. Tactics can neutralize the attacks of opportunity. Other examples are a magus taking a 5-foot-step back before casting a spell and a rogue learning Spring Attack.
Tactics will change in Pathfinder 2nd Edition.
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I would be down for two ancestry feats as one way of making races more flavorful, but honestly I would just prefer a few more baked in features. The current ancestries seem just too threadbare for me.
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I would be down for two ancestry feats as one way of making races more flavorful, but honestly I would just prefer a few more baked in features. The current ancestries seem just too threadbare for me.
Agreed. My preference would be that we get about as many racial features as PF1, (Which averages to about 5) plus the ancestry feats as we level. I think the starting racial features shouldn't be swappable, cuz we don't need that many decisions at level 1. I think they shouldn't be cultural, because evidently lots of people hate that. And I think they shouldn't only work on certain builds. A bonus to perception and to saves is nice for any class. A bonus to pierce spell resistance, not so much.
I'm holding out hope that it will look more like this, and we just haven't been given the full picture of starting ancestry features.
I would just like for you to get 2 Ancestry feats at level 1. Seems pretty weird that I can be Hardy by nature of my family tree, but that none of that family's culture influences me until I get another feat.
Maybe the missing part will be in the backgrounds.
Let me find a rich culture to influence my character. How about:
Varisians
Varisians, the naive residents of Varisia, are free-spirited people who know numerous secrets of their beautiful homeland. For many Varisians, the world is a wondrous place full of potential, and they want to see as much as they can. As traveler, most Varisians possess piecemeal knowledge on varied subjects, picked up from roadside conversations and tales passed down from their elders. Among such eclectic expertise is a tradition of fortune-telling. Varisian fortune-telling cards, called harrow decks, are well known throughout Golarion, and many people pay to have their cards read in a harrowing. Varisians love music and dance, and often perform for money when they are allowed within a community. Like the Shoanti they share their homeland with, Varisians have a tradition of wearing elaborate tattos. Their imagery employes shapes suggestive of winged creatures, naturalistic images, and lengthy lines of mystical symbols--the meanings of which are known only to their people.
Imagine in Pathfinder 2nd Edition I chose Varisian as an ancestry. I spot Harrowed as an ancestry feat, so I consider playing a Varisian fortune-teller. But that is only one feat, so how could my character seem more like a fortune-teller?
The notes under the Varisian ancestry would mention that common backgrounds for Varisians are caravan traveler, criminal family, local guide, lore keeper, street performer, and street urchin. (Street Urchin was in yesterday's preview. The others are imaginary.) The street performer background gives a bonus to Dexterity and Charisma, Perform as a specialty skill, etc. I could make a story about my character how fortune-telling among the Varisians is mostly about performance and take that background. Or lore keeper gives a boost to Intelligence and Knowledge skills and has Ancient Lore, so if I want to make a divination wizard or witch, then that would be a better start. Either way, the suggested backgrounds can mimic the cultural flavor of the Varisian ancestry.