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aka BARBARIANS IN SECOND EDITION! What they gonna be like?
I'm wondering what Rage will look like. Will we still have rounds or move to "rage points"? Or will it have certain triggers such as entering combat or if you are critically hit?
And what about Rage Powers? Hopefully the totems are consolidated into a single Class Feat.
Curiouser and curiouser...
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If we're talking about things we'd like to see, I think it would be neat if Rage, Greater Rage, and Mighty Rage were consolidated into one scaling Raging condition... and that being critically hit while in rage (and surviving) gives you a bump to the next highest tier of raging, even if you're not yet high enough level to enter that kind of rage on your own.
I also really like the Unchained change to flat buffs and temporary HP instead of changing your actual Str/Con scores. It's cleaner.
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I'd love it if Barbarians had to work themselves up into a frenzy. Upside is they can rage all day every day, downside for them is they don't hit peak effectiveness until round 4/5.
The way I see it is Raging being a self inflicted condition and can thus go from Raging 1 to Raging 5. The number being the benefit/negative. So Raging gives +x to hit and damage, fort and reflex save but -x AC and will saves [specifics subject to change.] Barbarians then can increase or decrease their Rage by 1 at the start of each of their rounds, with certain effects like scoring criticals or being hit also increasing it. So Rage powers will vent a bit of Rage and reduce the Raging condition.
I like where you went with that a lot. Really brings the juggernaut feel to the table. "Focus fire! Bring her down before she becomes unstoppable!"
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I just hope that the extra HP gained from rage is treated like temporary HP and lost first. Instead of the current silliness where dropping out of rage is often equivalent to just dropping dead.
This. Temporary HP, a bonus to attack and damage, other adjustments like that instead of /directly/ raising Str and Con. The less fiddly ability score recalculations at the table midgame, the better.
I'd really like to see a barbarian with a reaction option to retaliate with a powerful attack after being hit with a critical hit. I think that would be an interesting mechanic for the lower AC "naked" barbarian.
I think I'm currently in favor of something like Rage Points. I'm a big fan of Iron Heroes, so I also really like the suggestions of Barbarians being able to take actions to increase Rage, or getting increased Rage from crits.
What I'd like to see is a starting pool based on say, STR or CON, which can shift through the fight. Then you can spend them on attack/damage bonuses, temp HP, and stuff like removing negative status conditions from yourself.(End scene of Fire and Ice, anyone?)
I am not much for barbarians but I do agree with the temporary HP, and bonuses on attack and damage instead of increasing Str and Con. Though without the actual Str bonus it would make two-handed weapon builds less effective.
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I'd really like to see a barbarian with a reaction option to retaliate with a powerful attack after being hit with a critical hit. I think that would be an interesting mechanic for the lower AC "naked" barbarian.
Sounds like a good idea until you realize it's a nerfed version of Come And Get Me. >.>
That's my biggest worry for the Barbarian: the Unchained Barbarian was a pretty obvious "weh weh this class is too strong and makes the fighter feel bad" type of rework with key powers like Strength Surge and Spell Sunder either nerfed or removed. I hope whoever was responsible for the UBarb isn't allowed anywhere near the PF2 iteration.
I just hope that the extra HP gained from rage is treated like temporary HP and lost first. Instead of the current silliness where dropping out of rage is often equivalent to just dropping dead.
That is the biggest change that was made to the unchained barbarian.
I'd really like to see a barbarian with a reaction option to retaliate with a powerful attack after being hit with a critical hit. I think that would be an interesting mechanic for the lower AC "naked" barbarian.Sounds like a good idea until you realize it's a nerfed version of Come And Get Me. >.>
That's my biggest worry for the Barbarian: the Unchained Barbarian was a pretty obvious "weh weh this class is too strong and makes the fighter feel bad" type of rework with key powers like Strength Surge and Spell Sunder either nerfed or removed. I hope whoever was responsible for the UBarb isn't allowed anywhere near the PF2 iteration.
This. +1
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Sounds like a good idea until you realize it's a nerfed version of Come And Get Me. >.>
I am hoping for something more like the druid power shown in a previous blog, something more powerful than a standard attack.
Unicore, I like that reaction ability for the barbarian.
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I liked some of the status-removal abilities that the Samurai had. I'd love to see the barbarian just "shrug off" some conditions because they're that strong/tough/etc.
We've got some precedent for it, with rage powers like the drunken line and a few others.
Maybe they can shrug off minor effects, but can only delay the more middle to more serious ones?
Iron Heart Surge, clarified and divorced from Tome of Battle mechanics (i.e. with some other limiter on its use), should come standard on all martials.
One thing I'm hoping for in PF2 is that ability score boosting effects from PF1 (like rage or mutagens) will still actually increase ability scores. Unchained rage simplified math (sort of), sure, but it also meant that other things that keyed off strength or con no longer got a boost from the ability.
No increased carrying/lifting ability, bonuses on strength-based ability or skill checks, strength or con-based damage of special abilities, tolerance for alcohol, etc.
aka BARBARIANS IN SECOND EDITION! What they gonna be like?
I'm wondering what Rage will look like. Will we still have rounds or move to "rage points"? Or will it have certain triggers such as entering combat or if you are critically hit?
And what about Rage Powers? Hopefully the totems are consolidated into a single Class Feat.
Curiouser and curiouser...
The only reason to switch from rounds of rage to rage points would be that rage points could be spent on other things, such as rage powers that consume rage points to use.
The resonance points and spell points got us wondering what the martial classes would use. I had thought of stamina points as a general pool for martials, with barbarians consuming them to maintain rage while fighters and rogues used them for other abilities. However, in the thread Spellpoints and Martial classes ElSilverWind pointed out that if stamina points existed, then the previews we had of fighters and rogues would have mentioned them. Thus, stamina points don't exist.
Maybe rage points or rounds of rage won't exist, either. Imagine a barbarian who has to start a rage as a single action; rather than as a free action. And every turn he must spend his first action to maintain the rage. He has to be actively raging rather than counting rounds of rage. This would fit in with Paizo's PF2 plan for no longer having individual uses per day of magic items and abilities.
A mere +2 to Strength bonus and Constitution bonus (+4 to Strength and Constitution) is not worth losing an action every turn, especially with a -2 penalty to AC tacked on. However, we declare that the increase to Con does not give more hit points. Instead, the barbarian gains 2 temporary hit points and these temporary hit points are replenished every time the barbarian renews his rage. When his rage bonus increases to +3 to Str bonus and Con bonus, the temporary hit points increase to 3 also, and so on.
Of course, with unlimited rage, we need some reason why the barbarian does not rage all day. Thus, we put a limit of 4 plus Con modifier on the number of consecutive rounds a barbarian can rage, which we could express as 2 plus new Con modifier so that it automatically increases with the rage bonus, too. Then the barbarian suffers one minute of fatigue before he can rage again, like in D&D 3rd Edition. I am sad to reintroduce counting to rage again, but this is more like the duration of a spell than spending rounds of rage.
As for rage powers, I suspect they will become class feats for the barbarian class. The barbarian might receive fewer class feats than one every even level; if so, the rage powers would have to be made more powerful to compensate. Imagine each Totem rage power with automatic progression: starts as the lesser totem at 2nd level, gains the middle totem for free at 6th level, and the greater totem at 10th level.
It’s thematic. It’s also a pain that everyone winds up having to deal with through taxes like raging vitality or ferocity, just so that they are not the one class that immediately dies as soon as it becomes unconscious. And I’d like to see these abilities either given freely to barbarians, or become less mandatory for everyone who wants to use rage.I just hope that the extra HP gained from rage is treated like temporary HP and lost first. Instead of the current silliness where dropping out of rage is often equivalent to just dropping dead.Its very thematic though. The barbarian is drenched in his own blood after a hard fight, the adrenaline starts to wear off, and he just drops to the ground.
And playing a barbarian who is cautious about not dropping dead is anti-thematic. Caution and berserker rage are not supposed to go together. Alas, lack of caution can lead to no longer playing the barbarian because he died.
It is also terribly unintuitive way of handling extra HP, which appears to be different from how regular temp HP works for no particular reason.
Increasing Constitution works the same way as decreasing Constitution: it changes the hit points without changing the damage. As a GM, I saw a character hit by Cloudkill almost drop dead from the damage to Con, because the character already had some damage before his hit points shrunk.
The unintuitive part about the increased Constitution from raging is that it wears off while it is still necessary. Imagine that the higher Con persisted until the barbarian got a solid night's sleep. Then the sleep would heal enough damage that the barbarian would not be at risk of dying.
The skald in my Iron Gods campaign has Greater Skald's Vigor, which gives everyone who accepts her Inspired Rage song fast healing. Thus, an extra round or two of song after combat is enough to ensure that the temporary increase to Constitution is no longer necessary to keep the heavily-injured character alive. By making the damage as temporary as the increase to Constitution, the increase works effectively.
Temporary hit points from raging would also make damage disappear more quickly than the rage.
I'm... not really sure what point you are trying to make here?
I am too wordy. My point is simpler than my words. A temporary increase to Strength works fine because it needs to last only though a few attacks. A temporary increase to Dexterity works fine because it needs to last only though a few defensive dodges. A temporary increase to Charisma works fine because it has to last only through a Diplomacy or Bluff check. A temporary increase to Constitution is only a stopgap because after it disappears the damage is still there and kills the barbarian.
Somehow, the barbarian need a way to make the damage disappear before the increase to Constitution disappears. In PF1, he relies on outside help, such as a cleric or a potion.
On an unrelated note, while we’re on the subject of 2e changes to barbarian, I must admit, I would hope that the restriction on lawful barbarians is lifted. It is rather disappointing that one cannot play a barb who holds strongly to a personal or tribal code of honor/whatever, without losing the ability to get angry. And somehow bloodrager can be perfectly lawful without issue.
There are many ways to gain Rage as a Lawful character:
- Bloodrager- Viking Fighter
- Wild Stalker Ranger
- Rage domain (granted by a LG patron, no less)
- Anger Inquisition
- VMC Barbarian
A character who Rages is still in full control of their actions, they just can't concentrate on things that require mental focus. Aside from anything else, righteous fury (whether in the religious sense or not) is a well-loved trope in heroic fantasy.
Furthermore the Barbarian is not committed to spreading anarchy (an Evil goal, if it mandates the destruction of well-ordered societies) or protecting the wilderness from encroaching civilization. Barbarians don't even have to come from the wilderness anymore, not that tribal society even implies a non-lawful alignment. Paizo/WotC even caved to entitled millennials by allowing Barbarians to read, let alone no longer compelling them to sunder every magic item they find. So what part of the class requires non-lawful again?
So what part of the class requires non-lawful again?
For some, there is only rage. In the ways of their people, in the fury of their passion, in the howl of battle, conflict is all these brutal souls know. Savages, hired muscle, masters of vicious martial techniques, they are not soldiers or professional warriors—they are the battle possessed, creatures of slaughter and spirits of war. Known as barbarians, these warmongers know little of training, preparation, or the rules of warfare; for them, only the moment exists, with the foes that stand before them and the knowledge that the next moment might hold their death. They possess a sixth sense in regard to danger and the endurance to weather all that might entail. These brutal warriors might rise from all walks of life, both civilized and savage, though whole societies embracing such philosophies roam the wild places of the world. Within barbarians storms the primal spirit of battle, and woe to those who face their rage.
Role: Barbarians excel in combat, possessing the martial prowess and fortitude to take on foes seemingly far superior to themselves. With rage granting them boldness and daring beyond that of most other warriors, barbarians charge furiously into battle and ruin all who would stand in their way.
Alignment: Any nonlawful.
That one
So what part of the class requires non-lawful again?For some, there is only rage. In the ways of their people, in the fury of their passion, in the howl of battle, conflict is all these brutal souls know. Savages, hired muscle, masters of vicious martial techniques, they are not soldiers or professional warriors—they are the battle possessed, creatures of slaughter and spirits of war. Known as barbarians, these warmongers know little of training, preparation, or the rules of warfare; for them, only the moment exists, with the foes that stand before them and the knowledge that the next moment might hold their death. They possess a sixth sense in regard to danger and the endurance to weather all that might entail. These brutal warriors might rise from all walks of life, both civilized and savage, though whole societies embracing such philosophies roam the wild places of the world. Within barbarians storms the primal spirit of battle, and woe to those who face their rage.
Role: Barbarians excel in combat, possessing the martial prowess and fortitude to take on foes seemingly far superior to themselves. With rage granting them boldness and daring beyond that of most other warriors, barbarians charge furiously into battle and ruin all who would stand in their way.
Alignment: Any nonlawful.
That one
I mean, why is that there when there's no justification for it?
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I mean, why is that there when there's no justification for it?
The original barbarian class came in one flavor and that flavor was not lawful. However, the class has grown in scope since then. I recommend Neal Litherland's 50 Shades of Rage: Flavoring the Barbarian's Signature Power.
I would actually rather there be other defining features of the barbarian than "rage." Something that ties better into the idea that they are "uncivilized", "superstitious", "technologically inferior," etc. Rage should be an option for some builds but not a required thing for every one.
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I would actually rather there be other defining features of the barbarian than "rage." Something that ties better into the idea that they are "uncivilized", "superstitious", "technologically inferior," etc. Rage should be an option for some builds but not a required thing for every one.
I'd completely disagree. The Barbarian chassis is suitable for a lot of concepts, and I'd rather it not be pigeonholed into "Shoanti Tribeswoman". I like rage and the host of supernatural abilities that come with it.
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I would actually rather there be other defining features of the barbarian than "rage." Something that ties better into the idea that they are "uncivilized", "superstitious", "technologically inferior," etc. Rage should be an option for some builds but not a required thing for every one.I'd completely disagree. The Barbarian chassis is suitable for a lot of concepts, and I'd rather it not be pigeonholed into "Shoanti Tribeswoman". I like rage and the host of supernatural abilities that come with it.
Agreed. I still advocate for the Barbarian to be renamed to the Berserker, since it fits much better. The pit fighter in a city's seedy underbelly who sees red in a match and goes to town on their opponents, the dangerous military commander whose subordinates keep their distance from because of the anger seething under the surface, and even a paladin of a war god who becomes a blaze of holy fury on the battlefield against evil - all can have berserker levels. It definitely is not a thing restricted to primitive tribals.
I would actually rather there be other defining features of the barbarian than "rage." Something that ties better into the idea that they are "uncivilized", "superstitious", "technologically inferior," etc. Rage should be an option for some builds but not a required thing for every one.
I would actually rather there be other defining features of the barbarian than "rage." Something that ties better into the idea that they are "uncivilized", "superstitious", "technologically inferior," etc. Rage should be an option for some builds but not a required thing for every one.
I could play a Noble Savage of a Proud Warrior People (character design by cliché) as Monk class or Ranger class, but Barbarian class seems a better fit, except for the rage. Thus, having a rageless archetype for barbarian would be good. But without rage and rage powers, all the barbarian offers is full BAB, 1d12 hit points, 4+Int skill ranks, fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, improved uncanny dodge, damage reduction, and indomitable will. Those traitss say athletic and alert rather than uncivilized.
I like rage and the host of supernatural abilities that come with it.
Overall, rage is a very good mechanic on which to hang special abilities, AKA rage powers. The limits of rage mean that rage powers can be strong: pounce, combat maneuvers with damage, spell resistance, etc. Since the inner beast has an aura of mysticism, the Paizo designers also let the barbarian have supernatural rage powers that are denied to more mundane martials such as the fighter and cavalier.
Rage works too well to abandon.
There won't be the same issue, because the rules on dying are changing. You drop to under 0 HP, you get condition 'dying'. Your barbarian rage stops, your HP drops too low, you go to dying, not dead. Should get a little time for the party to react and save you. (This was in one of the playthroughs.)
Never was a fan of rage and would love other combat options for the class that do not require archetypes.
Never was a fan of rage and would love other combat options for the class that do not require archetypes.
What inspires you to play barbarian despite your dislike of rage? Perhaps the PF2 design can separate those features from rage.
Agreed. I still advocate for the Barbarian to be renamed to the Berserker, since it fits much better. The pit fighter in a city's seedy underbelly who sees red in a match and goes to town on their opponents, the dangerous military commander whose subordinates keep their distance from because of the anger seething under the surface, and even a paladin of a war god who becomes a blaze of holy fury on the battlefield against evil - all can have berserker levels. It definitely is not a thing restricted to primitive tribals.I would actually rather there be other defining features of the barbarian than "rage." Something that ties better into the idea that they are "uncivilized", "superstitious", "technologically inferior," etc. Rage should be an option for some builds but not a required thing for every one.I'd completely disagree. The Barbarian chassis is suitable for a lot of concepts, and I'd rather it not be pigeonholed into "Shoanti Tribeswoman". I like rage and the host of supernatural abilities that come with it.
IDK, I replaced Barbarian with all your examples, and it still works fine for me.
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I actually like the concept of barbarians but don't think of them as armor wearing Berserkers but as armor less/light armor wearing warriors that shun more advanced and/or magical civilizations and rely more on strength of body, will, and skill to survive in a wild and/or harsh environment.
I actually like the concept of barbarians but don't think of them as armor wearing Berserkers but as armor less/light armor wearing warriors that shun more advanced and/or magical civilizations and rely more on strength of body, will, and skill to survive in a wild and/or harsh environment.
Rage is still the defining feature of the Barbarian class as we know it, or the above concept could arguably be better filled by a Ranger. And I do love me some heavy armor barbarians.
So, 'everyone participating' is a big thing for me! While every class has their niche, some areas--like scouting, high magic rituals, can be more fun if they're more of a storyline and bring everyone along.
If we DO get expanded ritual/Coven/Convocation rules, it would be nice to see the barbarian shine with its own primal magic--
--the sort warriors/warrior societies would have dipped into, and celebrated before battle.
So long as we're letting "anything be rolled" (rolling Stealth for initiative, for example), why couldn't a barbarian group of warriors roll their "inner rage spirit" (barbarian levels) to try to get a critical success before battle?
I'd really like to see a barbarian with a reaction option to retaliate with a powerful attack after being hit with a critical hit. I think that would be an interesting mechanic for the lower AC "naked" barbarian.Sounds like a good idea until you realize it's a nerfed version of Come And Get Me. >.>
That's my biggest worry for the Barbarian: the Unchained Barbarian was a pretty obvious "weh weh this class is too strong and makes the fighter feel bad" type of rework with key powers like Strength Surge and Spell Sunder either nerfed or removed. I hope whoever was responsible for the UBarb isn't allowed anywhere near the PF2 iteration.
Unchained barb is a flat out superior version of TWF barbarian, which is an archetype that core barb did pretty piss poorly with. It also opened up the idea of a dex barb that didn't have to take some weird archetype that was more mechanics than theme for most characters.