[Swashbuckler] Slashing grace and swashbuckler finesse ?


Advice


Hello,

Are longswords, scimitars, cutlass etc. considered as both slashing and piercing weapons ?

And if so, does swashbucklers finesse adds to slashing grace when attacking with such a weapon ?


Those weapons are slashing weapons. If you have slashing grace you can treat whichever of them you have weapon focus in as piercing weapons for things like swashbuckler finesse, which means that you can use dexterity instead of strength to attack with them. Is that what you're asking?


No. I was wondering if those weapons were considered as both piercing and slicing, since they have both a slicy edge and a tippy end. And if it was the case, apply slashing grace to them in order to add the dexterity bonus to damages a second time.

If it doesn't work, what's the whole purpose of slashing grace ? A rapier does have the same stats as cutlass / scimitar, except that it's a piercing weapon. A longswords gain a tad of damages but has a lower crit range so isn't worth aswell.

Why would I use something else than a rapier, where the only thing that it does is forcing me to pick an additional feat to be efficient ? Are there moves that are only avalaible to slash weapons ?


There are feats and traits and classes that specialize in scimitar so yes it's different then a rapier.


Also the obvious - DR bypassed by slashing (e.g. zombies) is more common than DR bypassed by piercing. But mostly Cavall's point, scimitars especially have a lot of options available. To a lesser extent that's true of Aldori duelling swords, daggers (which can't get dex to damage another way), and even glaives, see the bladed brush feat. The temple sword is about the best monk weapon which can get dex to damage.


It's also about giving any class that needs it Dex to Damage. Besides, Swashbuckler's Finesse just give you Weapon Finesse for piercing weapons. You don't get Dex to Damage with it. Even with a rapier, you would still need the Fencing Grace feat to get that. Slashing Grace simply allows a Swashbuckler more options for weapons. Whether you want to use it or not is up to you.


Heather 540 wrote:
It's also about giving any class that needs it Dex to Damage. Besides, Swashbuckler's Finesse just give you Weapon Finesse for piercing weapons. You don't get Dex to Damage with it. Even with a rapier, you would still need the Fencing Grace feat to get that. Slashing Grace simply allows a Swashbuckler more options for weapons. Whether you want to use it or not is up to you.

Alright. So assuming that my swashbuckler will be a level 1 human, in order to get Slashing Grace I should first pick Weapon Finesse for slash weapons (it's well stated that it's granted only for piercing weapons), then Weapon Focus for said weapon and finally Slashing Grace at level 3.

Or I could simply stick with piercing weapon, and if I want the extra DX damage simply get Weapon Focus and Fencing Grace, which I can do from level 1 if I want to. This solution looks much more appealing.

But when I'm looking at guides here and there people always want Slashing Grace, so why would it be so good on a Swashbuckler ? As you said it gives me more options, but is slash damage really worth sacrificing 3 feats ?

I could (should ?) also get dodge in order to get Spring Attack later on. What do you think about Spring Attack on a Swashbuckler ? It works well the kind of thing you imagine about such a swordsman but is it really useful when anything with hands / tentacles / whatever can just retain his action and grab me ? I'm a bit lost in my build tbh x)


Swashbucklers get weapon finesse via swashbuckler's finesse. They don't need to spend a feat. It doesn't apply to a longsword or whatever until they get slashing grace, but as a human you could get weapon focus (some slashing weapon) and slashing grace at level 1. You don't have to sacrifice any feats if you'd have been going for fencing grace otherwise anyway, the cost is the same. That said there's nothing wrong with using a rapier on a swashbuckler.

Spring attack is thematic and not particularly good in most situations for a swashbuckler. The class is sold as being about mobility but gains little advantage from being mobile. Annoying, eh?

If you're a major part of the front line in your group then you may want combat reflexes both for extra potential parries in a tight spot and to take more attacks of opportunity. It can lead on to other feats like swordplay style or bodyguard later on if you wish. If there are 2-3 other people on the front line that's not so necessary.

Extra panache is a useful feat especially if you have 14 or lower charisma, and you might want combat expertise, dirty fighting or power attack if you want to indulge in combat maneuvers.


avr wrote:

Swashbucklers get weapon finesse via swashbuckler's finesse. They don't need to spend a feat. It doesn't apply to a longsword or whatever until they get slashing grace, but as a human you could get weapon focus (some slashing weapon) and slashing grace at level 1. You don't have to sacrifice any feats if you'd have been going for fencing grace otherwise anyway, the cost is the same. That said there's nothing wrong with using a rapier on a swashbuckler.

Spring attack is thematic and not particularly good in most situations for a swashbuckler. The class is sold as being about mobility but gains little advantage from being mobile. Annoying, eh?

If you're a major part of the front line in your group then you may want combat reflexes both for extra potential parries in a tight spot and to take more attacks of opportunity. It can lead on to other feats like swordplay style or bodyguard later on if you wish. If there are 2-3 other people on the front line that's not so necessary.

Extra panache is a useful feat especially if you have 14 or lower charisma, and you might want combat expertise, dirty fighting or power attack if you want to indulge in combat maneuvers.

Huh, too bad :/

In fact we're going to be a 3-men party, and we won't know each others characters before we start to play, so we aren't opimizing to have the most balanced and well rounded party ever.

The GM ensured us that he'll make it doable for the party we'll have, but that it'll be difficult and that we should spend time to build efficient characters.

I went Swashbuckler because it looked like a more classy and mobile fighter. I was planning to move a lot, harass the ennemy and be able to go for the backline like a Rogue do, while being able to stand solid against full melee focused foes. Isn't it what it's doing ? What does a swashbuckler do that makes him different from a fighter ?


A swashbuckler has the parry instead of heavy armor, and uses a rapier or similar to slightly less but still comparable damage to a two-handed weapon. Since they generally wear light armor they're more able to use acrobatics or other skills affected by an armor check penalty - this is the limit of their mobility encouragement. They're encouraged by panache (and occasionally charmed life) to have some charisma. Despite all this they play very like fighters; toe-to-toe exchange of full attacks is normal.

A mobile fighter which can stand solid might be a magus, since bladed dash w/spell combat is a mobile full attack, or shocking grasp is nearly as effective on one attack as a full attack. Or something like a character aiming for reach via great size, where repositioning to stay out or the enemies reach while keeping the enemy within yours is the name of the game. This is one of the situations where vital strike builds are excusable. Goliath druids and aberrant bloodragers are good at this. Swashbuckler 1 as a dip on a mobile rogue (or on an alchemist w/vivisectionist or grenadier archetype, or on an investigator; I've seen the last and it works) for the parry to give them a chance against full melee types could also work.


The swashbuckler can do much of what the fighter does. While they do not have heavy armor they usually have significantly higher DEX so their AC is still good enough for the frontline. If they pick up combat expertise (to qualify for disarm) their AC will probably match or exceed a fighters. If you are starting at 1st level the swashbuckler will probably have a higher AC because the fighter cannot afford heavy armor to start with.

The big advantage a swashbuckler has over a fighter is they actually have skills. Not only do they get more skill points, they also have more useful class skills. Due to a swashbuckler needing CHA they actually do social skills very well. Your typical fighter dumps CHA and rarely invests his few points in social skills.

The swashbuckler also uses a specific combat style. The fighter because of his feats is able to be built to use any combat style. The swashbuckler’s class abilities are geared to this combat style making him slightly better that a fighter using the same style. A fighter could use his feats to get a similar character but would lack some of the combat abilities (but would have different ones). What the fighter would lack would be the out of combat utility of the swashbuckler.


avr wrote:


A mobile fighter which can stand solid might be a magus, since bladed dash w/spell combat is a mobile full attack, or shocking grasp is nearly as effective on one attack as a full attack. Or something like a character aiming for reach via great size, where repositioning to stay out or the enemies reach while keeping the enemy within yours is the name of the game. This is one of the situations where vital strike builds are excusable. Goliath druids and aberrant bloodragers are good at this. Swashbuckler 1 as a dip on a mobile rogue (or on an alchemist w/vivisectionist or grenadier archetype, or on an investigator; I've seen the last and it works) for the parry to give them a chance against full melee types could also work.

I fail to see where bladed dash significantly differs from spring attack, despite the fact that it's not a feat and so accessed more easily. I'll keep the idea of aberrant bloodrager based on AOO for a later character tho, looks pretty fun aswell.

Thing is the Dex - Charisma base of the Swashbukler represent very well the type of character I want to play. I hesitate to play either this Swashbuckler or a Rogue.

About the parry, I don't think it's something I can really rely on. It costs a Panache point, so I can't use it reliabily. In a combat heavy day I'll probably run out of panache before the end of the day.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The swashbuckler also uses a specific combat style.

Okay but I fail to see what this combat style is really. Okay you have deeds but they're a tool you have to use carefully troughout the day as you won't earn Panache easily.

I have different gear, I use Dex to pump up my AC instead of armor, but in the end the playstyle is the same right ? I stand in, roll attack dices and pray ? I don't move, flank or kite ? Or at least not more than I'd do with an other more usual melee ?


The combat style of the swashbuckler is lightly armored single weapon fighting. Other combat styles would be two handed weapon, two weapon, weapon and shield, reach weapon, archery, unarmed combat just to name a few.

The most popular combat style especially for high STR characters is two handed weapon. The amount of damage a high STR fighter can do using a two handed weapon with the proper feats is incredible. When he gets a critical hit he will do a lot more damage than the swashbuckler. While the swashbuckler will probably get more critical hits much of his bonus damage is precision damage which is not multiplied on a critical hit.

While you may have similar AC to a character wearing heavy armor much of your AC comes from DEX and dodge bonuses. This means you will have a much better touch AC, but a bad flat footed AC. So if you are surprised you will be a lot more likely to get hit. On the other hand if you are fighting against something that targets touch AC you are much better off. So vs a incorporeal undead you will do a lot better than the low DEX fighter in full plate.

Different fighting styles can be confusing, but they do a have a real impact on the game. To a begining player some of the nuances may not be apparent.


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Bladed dash allows one attack on its own. Spell combat allows you to make a full attack (at -2, with a one-handed or light melee weapon) before or after casting a spell. Bladed dash + spell combat gives you a full attack, plus one attack, either before or after moving 30' without provoking attacks of opportunity. Well, technically you could make the one extra attack somewhere along the way.

Spring attack gives you one attack only in the middle of a move action, that also doesn't provoke AoOs. At best it's half as good.

Panache runs out but it also recovers on crits and on kills. It's not reliable but the swashbuckler 1 / investigator 9 in the game I'm currently running does find the parry very useful.


Inspired Blade 1, Magus X gets int+cha to the panache pool, plus a magus arcana to give him parry and riposte from his magus pool as well, plus bladed dash.


Well then I think I'll just build as Weapon Focus and Fencing Grace on an inspired blade, then get survivability feats and when reaching enough BAB get some critical feats.

What are good defensive feats for this kind of character ? There are Combat Expertise and Dodge, but they don't seem that great, even if they're preriquistes for a lot of feats (such as lightning stance which seems to be really good). There's also the improved feint branch that can be good, espcially since I'll have good charsima and will max bluff every level.

But in the end, I was expecting to find really strong feats such as Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload and Deadly Aim are with my Gunslinger but there doesn't seem to be anything like that :/


Combat Expertise allows you to get improved disarm, and latter disarming strike. Add in agile maneuvers and you end up with a very effective swordsman. He has a good chance of disarming his opponent without having to waste an attack on disarming. Considering the swashbuckler will have a threat range of 15-20 that means that 25% of your attacks have a chance of disarming your opponent.

Max out intimidate instead of bluff. Swashbucklers get menacing sword play so you can use a swift action to intimidate in combat. If you have disarming strike at 9th level you can attack someone and demoralize and disarm them and still have more attacks left.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Combat Expertise allows you to get improved disarm, and latter disarming strike. Add in agile maneuvers and you end up with a very effective swordsman. He has a good chance of disarming his opponent without having to waste an attack on disarming. Considering the swashbuckler will have a threat range of 15-20 that means that 25% of your attacks have a chance of disarming your opponent.

30% chance.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Combat Expertise allows you to get improved disarm, and latter disarming strike. Add in agile maneuvers and you end up with a very effective swordsman. He has a good chance of disarming his opponent without having to waste an attack on disarming. Considering the swashbuckler will have a threat range of 15-20 that means that 25% of your attacks have a chance of disarming your opponent.
30% chance.

In fact I'll max both. I'll be the group's face (as I love doing this job and the other players hate it) so I'll have bluff, diplomacy, sense motive and intimidate maxed anyway.


If you're going to go with the Inspired Blade archetype, you don't need to take Weapon Focus as a feat, it just gives it to you. So as a human, you can take Fencing Grace and still have a level one feat. But you lose the ability to regain Panache from a killing blow, so get Keen for your rapier as soon as possible. And you don't need Agile Maneuvers, either. The rules state that if you have Weapon Finesse, then you already use your Dex for Disarm and Trip attempts when using your rapier to do so. You only need Agile Maneuvers for Grapple, Bull Rush, etc.


Heather 540 wrote:
If you're going to go with the Inspired Blade archetype, you don't need to take Weapon Focus as a feat, it just gives it to you. So as a human, you can take Fencing Grace and still have a level one feat. But you lose the ability to regain Panache from a killing blow, so get Keen for your rapier as soon as possible. And you don't need Agile Maneuvers, either. The rules state that if you have Weapon Finesse, then you already use your Dex for Disarm and Trip attempts when using your rapier to do so. You only need Agile Maneuvers for Grapple, Bull Rush, etc.

Inspired Blades get improved critical at 5th anyway, so I'd not bother with Keen.


Ah, so it does. Too bad they don't stack.


Dilvias wrote:


Inspired Blades get improved critical at 5th anyway, so I'd not bother with Keen.

Yeah, I'd rather get Flamboyant for extra panache.


You can also buy a Plume of Panache. It uses the Head Slot, costs 1000 gold, and gives you one extra point of panache a day.


Heather 540 wrote:
You can also buy a Plume of Panache. It uses the Head Slot, costs 1000 gold, and gives you one extra point of panache a day.

This seems good. In two items I have the equivalent of a whole feat for extra panache, this is nice.

While we're at it, how do I determine the price of an item ? For Flamboyant, for example, it says "price : +1 bonus". What does it exactly means ?


That means the price goes up determined by how much enhancement your weapon already has. Since a magic property can't be added until it already has at least +1, the price of the property is at least the same as a +2 enhancement. And so on up. I'm not sure if other properties factor into cost though, so you might want to ask in the Rules Forum or something.


A lot of people like to stack Inspired Blade with the Noble Fencer archetype.


You pretty much nailed that Heather.

Basically the +(x) modifier is what the cost is going to be to upgrade it. A +3 longsword into a +4 flaming longsword would cost the difference. Flaming is +1 and 3 to 4 is another +1. So it would cost the difference between a +3 weapon (what it was) and a +5 (the +1 enhancement and flaming adding a total of 2)
So you'd look up the cost of a +5 weapon and minus the cost of a +3 since that's already done. Rest is basic math.

Just remember the highest a weapon cam go is a total of +10 and the max the basic enhan cements can go is +5 of that +10. So you could have a +5 Flaming longsword but not a +6 one.

Hope that helps make it a little clearer. Once you do a few you'll see it's quite easy. And as Heather pointed out it's got to have at least +1 basic in order to add the other stuff like flaming or keen or whatever.


But what are +1, +3 etc related to ? How much gold does, for instance, +1 costs ? I checked the magical items page but didn't manage to understand.


A +1 base enhancement is 2000 gold if it's the first time you are enhancing your weapon. Each additional +1 or property goes up in price according to the table that you can find here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Weapons
(I don't remember how to make the link clickable and the little box that shows you how isn't opening for me.)

Examples:
You have a +1 Rapier. You want to make it +2. That's priced at 8000 gold. But you subtract the 2000 of the +1 you already have for a total price of 6000.

You have a +1 Rapier. You want to add the Shock Property. That's a +1 bonus in price. That means you price it the same as a +2 base enhancement, which is 8000, subtracting the 2000 of the +1 you already have for a total price of 6000.

You have a +1 Rapier. You want to add the Flaming Burst Property. That's a +2 bonus. That means you price it the same as a +3 base enhancement which is 18000, subtracting the 2000 of the +1 you already have for a total price of 16000.

And so on, and so on.


Table: Weapon Pricing by Bonus
Weapon Bonus Base Price(gp)
+1 2,000
+2 8,000
+3 18,000
+4 32,000
+5 50,000
+6 272,000
+7 298,000
+8 2128,000
+9 2162,000
+10 2200,000

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