Can a wizard who has his hands tied behind his back cast spells with somatic components? I have read somatic spells require just a little bit of motion from the hands.
If wearing a breastplate can make you mess up the movement i would say having your hands tied behind your back makes it impossible.
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As a rule of thumb, being tied up count as being pinned or, if loosely chained, as being grappled.
So this applies:
Grappled: ... A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. ... A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
For the DC, from Escape artist:
Ropes: The DC of your Escape Artist check is equal to the binder's Combat Maneuver Bonus +20.
Manacles and Masterwork Manacles: The DC for manacles is set by their construction (see the table below).
Restraint Escape Artist DC
Rope/bindings Binder's CMB +20
Net, animate rope, command plants, control plants, or entangle 20
Snare spell 23
Manacles 30
Tight space 30
Masterwork manacles 35
Grappler Grappler's CMD
The wizard might be able to get away with it with a quickened or otherwise swift action spell because those somatic components pretty much have to be simplified given they don't attract AoOs. I can't see it working well with most other non-stilled spells.
Note that dimension door doesn't have somatic components, and contingent spells are cast earlier. This may matter a lot to the shackled wizard.
Edit: the shackle spell might well count as grappled, Diego's right. Which... has very little effect on spellcasting in the absence of a grappling creature with a CMB. If it uses your witches CMB then that isn't going to be a great improvement. Hopefully not.
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Edit: the shackle spell might well count as grappled, Diego's right. Which... has very little effect on spellcasting in the absence of a grappling creature with a CMB. If it uses your witches CMB then that isn't going to be a great improvement. Hopefully not.
"You summon a set of Small or Medium masterwork restraints into being.", so a DC of 35, it is not influenced by the caster CMB.
I think this is the only piece of the rules that address ting up someone directly. all other pieces that I recall are about freeing yourself from the bindings.
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
It confirm that a bound target count as pinned. But if we want the classical scene of a guy with bound hands and a leash on his neck being dragged around, the pin condition is inappropriate.
Maybe there is something in the intrigue books.
Is there rules for tying someone with chain? Or it would be same as ropes, just with higher break DC?
BTW, Caster's Tattoo can come in handy if you are tied up and/or gagged.
@Diego: even though it doesn't influence the DC to escape, the grapple formula references the CMB. If the GM doesn't say that casting such spells is out, and does use the grappled condition to represent the effect, then they might use the caster's CMB. Or even something like caster level + casting stat modifier.
@Darkphoenixx: I think Atalius is planning to have the character casting shackle, not the one which would like caster's/Varisian tattoo.
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Old text Pizza, now it say:
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
And in the magic section:
Grappling or Pinned: Casting a spell while you have the grappled or pinned condition is difficult and it requires a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting). Pinned creatures can only cast spells that do not have somatic components.
It has been changed with the 4th edition of the CRB.
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I'm gonna go with Pizza Lords first quote. If your hands are tied, they are not free.
The rest about grapples and pinned is all smoke and mirrors that do not help.
Somatic (S)
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
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The hands are free. The wrists aren't.
So saying "You don't have your hands free." is as imprecise as any other argument.
The truth is that, unless something has been written in a companion or some other book not available in the PRD there aren't definitive rules about how much you are impeded by manacles, ropes or other restraining equipment. It is all open to interpretation by the GM.
It is even appropriate as the variants are so many that a single rule will not cover them all.
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The hands are free. The wrists aren't.
This is a level of rules-lawyering that would be ... let's call it 'frowned upon' at any table I run.
In practical terms there is insufficient distinction between the two to justify ruling that your hands are free.
Still, if another GM let's you get away with it...have fun!
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The hands are free. The wrists aren't.
This is a level of rules-lawyering that would be ... let's call it 'frowned upon' at any table I run.
In practical terms there is insufficient distinction between the two to justify ruling that your hands are free.
Still, if another GM let's you get away with it...have fun!
Really? With a set of manacles you can move the hand relatively free, enough rope will restrict your movement more, those manacles for the thumbs will limit the movement of your hand even more.
At the end of the day it is all about the story the GM want to have.
A daring escape of the PCs, the villain being able to attempt an escape, or not, and so on. Generally you can't keep someone so tightly bound that he is unable to do anything for a long time, unless you are willing to take care of all his needs.
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No restrictions on manacles to cast isn't a daring escape. It's a standard action.
Your wrist argument has 0 grounding in rules.
Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
Hand, not arm. So I can retort that your argument has no basis on the rules.
And I am arguing that you need to make a concentration check, a difficult one, not that there is no restriction.
As with many things there's the usual and the specific. A creature that is 'bound' (and usually 'helpless') (aka failing an escape artist or str check) renders most somatic jestures impossible thus preventing spellcasting that relies on said gestures. No free hand (or dexterous appendage capable of fine manipulations for those oozemorphs out there B^≣). Ofcourse with diverse magic and spells there are exceptions. Quickened, Silent, Still, psychic magic, Contingency, spell tattoos and familiars, ...
Bound (non manacled) is the equivalent of pinned, so somatic gestures aren't possible.
As already said, there are different levels of restraint.
A dangerous person during a trial can have manacles and fetters, but he is still capable to eat, move slowly, write and so om.
If the hand are tightly bound together behind his back and then the arms are bound to his torso he can't do any of he above.
The first guy is very limite but isn't helpless, the second is.
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Bound is the equivilant of pinned
Manacles can bind a Medium creature.
Pinned have no hands free. It's quite clear.
Find a definition of bind, not a piece where is used to define some other thing. Especially one where it say that bound is the equivalent of pinned.
Probably I can find as many examples in the rulebooks and adventures that don't treat manacled as helpless as you can find examples that equate bound to helpless.
Bind/bound isn't a game term, so it isn't so clear cut as you say.
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It all depend of how the target is bund. If classical manacles are used the movement is restricted and I will require a concentration check.
It the person binding the caster take extra precautions to be sure that he is unable to cast spells with somatic gestures, like binding the hands, not only the wrists, it will become impossible to cast spells with somatic gestures.
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What concentration check?
The one for being grappled:
" A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell."For manacles you use the Escape artist DC: 30 for normal manacles, 35 for masterwork.
For a bound target, the DC is Binder's CMB +20 if the target was bound with the intention of making him unable to cast.
Note that that apply all spells, as the bindings are a distraction even if you cast a vocal only spell.
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I found an interesting piece under the spell "Imbue with Spell Ability"
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/imbue-with-spell-ability
Note the last paragraph reads "To cast a spell with a verbal component, the subject must be able to speak. To cast a spell with a somatic component, it must be able to move freely. To cast a spell with a material component or focus, it must have the materials or focus."
That seems to indicate any creature with there hands tied behind there back (or manacled behind there back) would not be able to cast any spells with somatic components because they "must be able to move freely".
Glad to know I can use throat slicer on someone who's hands I have bound, and that by binding their hands, it somehow prevents them from moving (part of being pinned).
apparently tying someone up with rope specifically pins them.
Hempen The DC to escape hemp rope bonds is equal to 20 + the CMB of the creature that tied the bonds. Ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If the DC to escape is higher than 20 + the tying creatures CMB, the tied up creature cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check. This rope has 2 hit points and can be burst with a DC 23 Strength check.
as for restraints, the hanging rules explicitly state that a characters hands are not free.
A character can attempt to escape a noose, but doing so requires that his hands be free (otherwise, he must escape from those restraints first).
I was referring to the fact that tying the hands up is not the same thing as tying up the creature (and is also what is asked about in this scenario), and that there are in fact rules for that happening as I quoted earlier. I am aware that tying up a creature (again different situation from what I am saying) applies the bound and pinned conditions.
I haven't seen any rules for "tying up" only a person's hands using rope. If you are using rope to create makeshift manacles then you are now dealing with rules regarding manacles not rope.
Actually you read the hanging rules wrong.A character can attempt to escape a noose, but doing so requires that his hands be free (otherwise, he must escape from those restraints first).They can only escape from the noose if their hands are free. That implies that they would need to be restrained using another method on their hands, not that nooseing (noosing? noose-ing? nosering?) someone restrains their hands.
I didn't read them wrong, you assume I was interpreting them wrong.
It says that your hands have to be free, it then goes on to state that if your character is restrained then their hands are not free and they must free themselves from those restraints.
So, what the heck might they be talking about? I assume it's referring to the common practice of binding a person's wrists together behind their back using rope or manacles when they are about to be hung. The identical situation described in the original question.
The rules are stating that if this sort of precaution has been taken, then your hands are not free.
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It seem that a lot of replies are done not reading all the posts, so the end result is that we are not speaking of the same things. I, at least, have been speaking of people with the hand manacled in front of them in most of my posts and thought that that was clear, but apparently it isn't. I think that this point this discussion has lost its utility for me. Have fun.
That's why I've quoted the manacles rules, because they are applicable.
I was being flippant, since I saw a lot discussion trying to apply the inapplicable rope rules to the situation instead of the manacle rules.
I was in agreement with you, but it came across poorly and so I do apologize.
Yes, it's common practice to tie the hands behind them/manacle them. The original question also doesn't involve a noose.
but it could. What if said wizard is being walked to the gallows and they want to escape using a spell that requires somatic components. They are restrained in a way that is common for that scenario. The hanging rules state that a character would need to escape their restraints in order to free their hands.
I'm not sure why a characters hands would suddenly go from being free to not be free just because they now also have a noose around their neck.
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Wow, didn't expect this thread to get heated!
I've interpreted "free hand" and "move freely" to mean that manacles and most other means of tying up would prevent somatic components from working. Mileage varies on this more than I would have thought.