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I've got buckets full of characters and boons and would prefer to see a clean slate and not have any of them do anything in PFS2.
Just like my Living Xendrik boons didn't do anything in LFR, and my LFR boons didn't do anything in PFS.
I still had all these wonderful experiences and look forward to having a new wondrous set in PFS2.
Anyway, PFS1 will still be playable. Nobody is taking your boons away from you.
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Nobody is taking your boons away from you.
No, but if you can't find a GM and a legal table to play at, then my boons are being made worthless.
I earned a boon GMing 8 sessions of GenCon 50. That didn't hurt anyone else's play experience did it?
Unfortunately, I've been taking my own sweet time crafting that character and have been told that it will be null and void unless I commute to some place with a thriving PFS1 scene.
How does the ability for people like me to trade it in for some sort of boon that makes my character a little unique now harm people's play experience in PF2?
The trend I'm seeing is that people who have been playing PFS for a long time and gotten their fill of race boons (or free Aasimars, which are better than any race boon I earned) and high level play are ready for a "clean slate.". Relatively new PFS players would like to see their earned boons carry something over.
What is a "clean slate" anyhow? That is for competative games where players have an advantage over other players based on time invested. How does a "clean slate" apply here?
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Not bringing forward stuff makes the game more accessible to new players.
Image the new player... Everybody else has Tengu's I want to Play a Tengu.
Sorry Timmy, Tengu's are a special reward for people who participated in the previous campaign.
Thus having a clean slate makes the game more accessible to new players.
It's interesting to see different perspectives from different players etc.
My coolest reward in PFS isn't my lvl 20 cleric, or my rare raced characters. It's my Service Coin. A reward I get to keep and would feel sad if I didn't.
For a lot of people their coolest thing is that Ratfolk boon or the fact that they got a character to 7th level or became a Scarab Sage or whatever and that is all going away.
From those of us at the top of the mountain it's easy to say, lets start from scratch for the new mountain.
For those only halfway up it's a much tougher pill to swallow.
There's always a bit that says even if I'm not enjoying this particular bit of game, I know it's contributing to a larger whole and there'll be payoff later. That payoff might be progress towards the next star, or being able to play higher level adventures or even just seeing a character through retirement.
A clean slate makes some of those steps a bitter pill to swallow. Imagine you like to play your special boon race on slow track and you play them once a month. Before that boon was worth 5.5 years of exciting and unique play. Memories made that could last a lifetime. Without any ability to hold that over the same boon at GenCon this coming year is only worth a year...
I see the issues, and I see the desire to hold things over. I see how it's a problem for current motivation.
I also think it's better to start fresh. It absolutely sucks for people halfway up the mountain but I think it's the best way forward.
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I really appreciate Pirate Rob's ability to see the situation from the perspective of those of us who just started our PFS journeys.
However, the more I've thought about it since I first posted, the more I'm interested in an answer.
For the purpose of my question, I'm defining a clean slate as nobody gets to carry anything of any sort over.
"What is the purpose of a clean slate?"
"How does it make the campaign better?"
"How does it make the game more accessible?"
When I joined my local lodge, the VC had an aasimar and a tiefling from the period when they were simply allowed. I didn't feel like the game was not accessible to me. I thought, "Cool. How can I get myself something interesting and unique like that?"
Now, maybe I'm not seeing it, but I'm not sure how a new player who picked up PF for the first time with 2e and comes to the table 3 months after publication and finds two of the players with tengu characters because they had unused boons to trade in for them (early access or something) create any barrier to that player joining PFS.
I also don't see how it is different from a new player picking up PF for the first time 2 years after PFS PF2 has been going and walks into a lodge where players have PFS PF2 GM race boons.
I am asking sincerely. I can be convinced if someone can draw the connection between the dots that I may be missing. Until then, I don't see any benefit to the campaign for a clean slate.
EDIT (more thoughts for the sake of the argument):
If someone joins PFS PF2 even 1 year after it has been out, they will encounter people with...
Re-rolls and star bonuses
Earned replays
Earned GM boons
Random Con boons
Chronicle boons that they may never see because everyone is busy playing the new scenarios
So why create this artificial period of a clean slate that hasn't existed in PF for the past 8 years and will only be extremely transient? Starfinder already has people with legacy races and GM boon races that other people can't access until that boon rolls around again, and it's only been out 5 months (the legacy races are a better example, as the Convention boon races are intentionally sped up).
EDIT EDIT: To make PFS PF2 more accessible, then allow all races and lock nothing behind a boon. That also accomplishes a clean slate. Nobody carries anything over, but nobody is restricted from a legal option.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I'm with Blake's Tiger on this one. A clean slate is useful for some things but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I don't think carrying over PCs is a good idea. That's an area where a clean slate can be useful: it gives a clear field of which tier scenarios we need first, and lets people experience low-level playstyle before making a high-level conversion that falls flat in the new system. And I don't think most conversions are going to be that great anyway; different system, fewer and different options; it's not going to be "the same".
But boons are a different thing. They're rewards and incentives. We have RSP programs running where people save up for boons that will be mostly pointless; not a great incentive is it?
My hope is that race boons will carry over, as soon as the new race becomes available in V2. That'll create a steady trickle of race boons as each new bestiary is published, not a single deluge. Each time a new bestiary comes out and one of your old race boons comes to life again that's an incentive to give PFS2 a spin.
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So what if the the first season of PFS2 was finding, assembling and figuring out an artifact called "The Wayback Machine" or something that would allow pathfinders to travel back into the past experience old scenarios. Players/GMs could earn trips back in time to replay old scenarios. There would be some ratio of characters or characters levels to number of replays of old scenarios. I think I read somewhere that converting from old to new is easy. There is a volunteer army that would happily do the conversions. The converting process would provide great experience for players and GMs getting used to the new system. Players and GMs that want to play more than twice a month wouldn't lose interest waiting for new content. Maybe two old scenarios could be re-released each month to limit things. I don't want to just abandon PFS1 and feel this would be a good way for us all to move on but still have a connection to the past.
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So what if the the first season of PFS2 was finding, assembling and figuring out an artifact called "The Wayback Machine" or something that would allow pathfinders to travel back into the past experience old scenarios. Players/GMs could earn trips back in time to replay old scenarios. There would be some ratio of characters or characters levels to number of replays of old scenarios. I think I read somewhere that converting from old to new is easy. There is a volunteer army that would happily do the conversions. The converting process would provide great experience for players and GMs getting used to the new system. Players and GMs that want to play more than twice a month wouldn't lose interest waiting for new content. Maybe two old scenarios could be re-released each month to limit things. I don't want to just abandon PFS1 and feel this would be a good way for us all to move on but still have a connection to the past.
I like the idea. However, and frankly, the reticence for the PFS team to put any level of precedence on converting season 0 to Pathfinder, and the extremely tight hold that the PFS team has on any developmental work, this is not likely to happen.
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I would not expect PFS1 scenarios to be updated for PF2E rules. That has been something of a topic for a long time with respect to season zero being updated to PF1E rules and other than a few very rare exceptions, it has not happened. On more than one occasion, all the season zeros have been re-developed and edited by volunteers and submitted to Paizo for processing. That does not change the fact that Paizo has very high production expectations for editing, development, layout, etc that would require all those scenarios to go back through the [almost] entire process to meet Paizo's standards before they could be re-released. So far, that has not been something that Paizo is willing/able to accomplish. Considering that the work-load for their staff is not going down, if anything it is going up between Starfinder, PF2E, PFS2, etc. it is highly unlikely this is going to happen to any PFS1 products.
That is not to say, the community couldn't do some updates and post them in the forums and/or places like the GM shared pages, but given that (so far) they seem firm on not allowing PFS1 characters to play in PFS2 and vice versa, conversations would not be necessary anyway.
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What if the player does not have any characters built from the CRB? what if all their characters are higher level? What if their archetype and equipment is not available in PF2E and they cannot convert said character without dramatically changing what the PC is and how it plays? There are a TON of what if's that are created the minute we try to take a character that has had the benefit of a decade of material and try to convert it to a system that only has a CRB.
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OMG, this is getting ridiculous.
NO ONE is advocating taking all the PCs, all the boons, all the splat-stuff from PFS and converting it to PFS2! No one EVER suggested it.
We're not talking about making it confusing or unfair for the new gamer walking in the LGS because he can't play a Tengu! Gimme a break.
We're talking about Paizo making a conversion guide, whatever rules they deem appropriate, that would allow us to pick one (or maybe a very limited number) PC and use it in PFS2.
A 10th Level Wizard to a 10th Level PF2 Wizard.
Maybe an 8th Level Paladin/Inquisitor to an 8th Level PF2 Paladin.
We're not talking about 15 of our most beloved PFS PCs that are all Aasimars and Kitsune Summoners and Vigilantes with three Archetypes each and exotic equipment and Feats from 101 splat books and 30 Boons per PC.
We acknowledge that we'd loose quite a bit of the distinguishing features of a PC. We acknowledge that Paizo would have to limit what we can convert and if we don't have a PC that can be converted by their guidelines then we can't convert the character.
But believe it or not, some of us do have a PC or two with a pretty standard or vanilla build -- and believe it or not some of us have spent eight or nine years just to play & GM 50 Scenarios -- and we don't want to lose that time.
If I can't legally convert my Paladin/Inquisitor for a reason Paizo feels is appropriate, then maybe I'll choose my Wizard or Ranger that are more vanilla.
And if you don't want to convert any of your PCs, then, um, this is a tricky problem -- how about... -- don't convert any of your PCs.
Other gamers will want to try to keep 'one' of their PCs for a different reason but for me, well--
I started PFS in '09.
I have one 10th Level PC. Really good level to play
One 8th Level PC. Really good level to play
One 7th Level PC. Close to good level to play
A few low-level PCs.
Ten years. 75ish Scenarios.
So if I start from scratch with PFS2 then, well,...
By 2030 I'll have one or two PCs that I'm just beginning to want to play.
And PF3 will be here.
Organized Play is already banal, low-fun gaming (compared to homegames). PFS Scenarios are by nature limited and brief and plain. I GM PFS to help out the local FLGS and to promote Paizo -- and to build up a PC to play at Cons. Something I was finally able to do at PaizoCon 2017. ....And I still want to help out the local FLGS. And I still want to promote Paizo. And I still want to be able to play a fun PC at an occasional convention.
I trust Paizo to be able to come up with a conversion guide that, while it would have to cut out many of the features of class-builds in the PF system, could still be used for some PF PCs to rebuild as PF2 PCs.
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OMG, this is getting ridiculous.
NO ONE is advocating taking all the PCs, all the boons, all the splat-stuff from PFS and converting it to PFS2! No one EVER suggested it.
Actually, there have been several people who have suggested just that (except for the splat stuff).
As for the rest of your post. Calling PFS low-hanging, banal gaming isn't going to win you any favors from the hordes who find it extremely enjoyable.
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I don't think it's asking much to simply move race boons over. Especially one's earned through GM at cons and even more so GenCon. It takes a lot of time and effort to GM at GenCon. Most people who play didn't so they already know what it's like to play with 1 person in their group with a catfolk boon.
A new slate is great, a new story even more so, but it's kind of deprecating to say that those types of boons will be worthless in the new season.
It's even worse for those of us who haven't applied those race boons to anything yet because we're trying to come up with the perfect character for them. Now those of us that did have to rush to get a character together just to get it up to some sort of substance before PFSv1 ends.
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I'd rather the PFS development team use their precious time and resources creating more awesome adventures for us to play, rather than putting that towards making a conversion guide to let us rehash characters that we've still got a number of options to play.
Especially when all this is still a year and a half away.
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I’m still not quite following how a race boon can be moved over, when the rules for a race don’t exist. Unless the Advanced Race Guide 2.0 is going to be the second book released, I don’t think catfolk, aasimars, tieflings, samsarans, gripplis, dhampirs, merfolk, etc. are going to exist as player races on launch. How do people propose those race boons be handled?
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Rather than wait what could be years before said race is developed for PD2E, which could possibly be never, why not have some system where the race boon is simply converted to some other form of "currency" that can be used immediately. Maybe its worth XP, maybe its worth gold, whatever. Personally, I am in favor of the hard-stop approach they seem to be taking. Not everyone likes all the races that have been released for PC use. Some are clearly better than others and that has a significant affect on the "arms race" affect of rules bloat. I think we learned some lessons about balance in PFS1 and I'm hoping we make some better choices in PFS2 to help reduce/delay the affects of rules bloat.
However, if boons do crossover in some way, a boon has zero value if its sitting in a folder somewhere waiting for the chance that the new PF2E will have rules for it at some unknown future date (if ever).
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I really, really don't want characters to be ported over for 2 reasons
1) There has been a HUGE amount of power creep over the years. One goal of PF2 is to reset things to a more balanced playing field. Paizo has even officially admitted that there IS a Martial/Caster disparity problem so there is at least a chance that things actually WILL be more balanced. You can NOT have any carry over of characters without completely destroying that goal.
If they HAVE balanced the classes better then I can't even bring over my Core Campaign druid because the PF2 version of the druid is likely to be significantly changed and weakened.
2) If characters can be brought over it is going to make creating new adventures more difficult as they'll have to cater (to at least some extent) to higher level characters being brought over. If there are no imports then pretty much ALL of season 1 will be level 1-4 with maybe a couple of 3-6 coming in late in the season. Better to just not allow the level 9 characters in than to listen to the incessant whining from players that they can't play their level 9 characters
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I really, really don't want characters to be ported over for 2 reasons
1) There has been a HUGE amount of power creep over the years. One goal of PF2 is to reset things to a more balanced playing field. Paizo has even officially admitted that there IS a Martial/Caster disparity problem so there is at least a chance that things actually WILL be more balanced. You can NOT have any carry over of characters without completely destroying that goal.
If they HAVE balanced the classes better then I can't even bring over my Core Campaign druid because the PF2 version of the druid is likely to be significantly changed and weakened.
Why not? Under my proposal (see above), you'd just rebuild your PF1e druid into a PF2e druid. Sure, it won't be identical (in fact there might be some not insignificant differences), but it's still your druid in PF2e form.
I don't think I'm proposing anything really crazy, labor intensive, or game breaking - just let each PFS player rebuild one PF1e character into a PF2e character using whatever rebuild rules are part of PF2e.
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If your druid (or whatever) is high level, why not just continue playing it with the "legacy" PFS1 material and start a new druid (or whatever) in the new PFS2 campaign using the shiny new PF2E rules? That saves a TON of work on the part of our developers not having to create a conversion document and they don't have to initially develop scenarios for the entire level range. They can focus on the low-tiers like they are with SFS and provide material that everyone can play. If also gives the feel of a new-start, baseline campaign that will appear to new players and those that left PFS because of rules bloat.
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If your druid (or whatever) is high level, why not just continue playing it with the "legacy" PFS1 material and start a new druid (or whatever) in the new PFS2 campaign using the shiny new PF2E rules?I rarely say this (:-)) but I'm in complete agreement with Bob
Is it weird that I'm in complete agreement with you both?
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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Wow, this new transition is already bringing people together! Yay for awkward agreement!
From those of us at the top of the mountain it's easy to say, lets start from scratch for the new mountain.
For those only halfway up it's a much tougher pill to swallow.
There's always a bit that says even if I'm not enjoying this particular bit of game, I know it's contributing to a larger whole and there'll be payoff later. That payoff might be progress towards the next star, or being able to play higher level adventures or even just seeing a character through retirement.
A clean slate makes some of those steps a bitter pill to swallow. Imagine you like to play your special boon race on slow track and you play them once a month. Before that boon was worth 5.5 years of exciting and unique play. Memories made that could last a lifetime. Without any ability to hold that over the same boon at GenCon this coming year is only worth a year...
I see the issues, and I see the desire to hold things over. I see how it's a problem for current motivation.
I also think it's better to start fresh. It absolutely sucks for people halfway up the mountain but I think it's the best way forward.
I love your mountain analogy, Rob. I started at the very beginning of Season 6, when everyone had brand new aasimars and tieflings that they had created in the previous week. And by everyone, I mean everyone. I played with whole tables of brand new aasimars and tieflings. And boy, did I feel a bit left out.
Still, I persevered and found joy in the characters that I could have.
Now I'm fairly close to that summit in PFS. After 3.5 years of playing, my -1 Zahra, is almost a seeker! I have 4 active characters in levels 6-8, two active characters at level 4, and the rest are GM babies. Maybe I will develop them, or maybe I’ll let them continue to lie fallow.
I have never been able to focus on more than a few characters at a time, so my focus for the next year and a half will be on the personal journeys of my favorites. I will be starting up one brand new character because we convinced all the Dreamers regulars to GM at Con of the North, and now they all want to start brand new aquatic characters and make a splash! I am very much looking forward to the wild and wet table with my friends, some of whom only started in PFS a few months ago.
★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★
There are storylines that I will never finish in PFS. Not one of my characters is likely to make it to level 15, much less 20. There will be characters that I may have to leave behind, and other 1e characters that I will likely play in Play-by-Post long after the rest of the PFS world has transitioned to 2e. Just like the Online community has been a haven for core, we can be the place where your favorite 1e characters can continue their journeys.
★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★
This transition is a painful one. There’s a new mountain to climb, and huge feeling of loss for those of us who want to savor the view on this one a little longer.
I don’t think that our 1e characters should transition over -- fresh start for everyone makes sense when it comes to our new campaigns and characters. (I do think that some of our 1e stars should transition over, but I already did that rant.) I understand those who feel that there should be a fresh start with boons, and I understand those who think the unused ones should be able to transition over to the new PFS as those races become sanctioned. I think that either way could work, so long as it becomes clarified which way we’re going with this.
If the powers that be decide that no race boons will carry over, I likely will open my boon folder and start gifting my boons away to players that make me smile. I’ve already gifted about a third of my boons I’ve earned... With this transition, gifting the rest just makes sense to me. If they decide that all race boons carry over, I will keep a couple treasured ones and likely gift the rest away anyway.
I GM more than I play... It’s time to spread some of the joy of those boons elsewhere in the PFS community.
★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★
We’re in a time of uncertainty. I urge all of us to be understanding of each other’s feelings of pain and loss, even if we are feeling that pain and loss about different things. Not every lodge is large enough to sustain lots of play opportunities in multiple campaigns.
To my friends who worry about stories that they may not be able to complete, I am hoping that you can do as I do -- play deeply and savor the stories that we have. Sometimes, the best and most memorable play that I have had has been in Play-by-Posts, or with characters that have advanced slowly. They may not be seekers. They may have taken four years to rise to sixth level... But they have given me and my fellow players great joy nonetheless.
Yours,
Hmm
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@Feroius Thune:
I would be completely ok with a rule saying: If you earned a PF 1 raceboon and did not use it you can use it in PF 2 once the rules for the race are released.
For a moment, I thought I was talking to myself.
I would be more ok with something like an eventual boon that works like the Merfolk boon. Trade X unused 1st edition race boons to make Y race (instead of whatever base race is on the boon).
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To jump off of Hilary's comment...
For those of us who started in home campaigns, I'm sure we can all remember the end of our first campaign. Maybe it ended in the best possible way: the story reached its end. The characters beat the final challenge and saved the world (or conquered it, depending on the type of game). Maybe it ended suddenly, when someone moved or burned out. Maybe it ended gradually, as scheduling became harder and harder to manage.
No matter how it ended, even if it was joyful completion of the story, it was still sad. We love these characters we create, and not getting to play them anymore feels like losing a friend, even when you know that you'll move on to new campaigns with new stories and new adventures and new characters that you'll love just as much.
But for those of us where PFS is our first Organized Play campaign, it felt like it couldn't end. Sure, PCs would level out, but you got to add new ones. You got to decide when their stories were finished. If someone moved away, it was okay. The story kept going. If work schedules changed, it was okay. The story kept going.
And now we've found out that this campaign, this story, with these characters, is ending.
And that is sad. And it's okay to be sad about it, and to know that you'll miss these characters and these stories.
I am excited for the new campaign, with new stories and new adventures and new characters who I'll love just as much as I love the characters I have now. But I know I'll also miss my current characters, who I've spent the last two years with.
We do need to make the right choices for the new campaign to be the best that it can be, and for me, that doesn't involve porting characters over. (Though connections are certainly possible! One of my first PCs in the new campaign will be the younger sister of my Seeker witch Zella.) I will finish their stories as best as I can, and then embrace the new campaign wholeheartedly, with a clean start, with new characters for new adventures.
And I hope I see all of you there.
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I definitely get the want to keep a remnant of what you currently have, but I also think blank slate is the best overall approach.
Full disclosure, this upcoming GenCon will only be my third to happen while I was a Society member, which makes me "newer" than a lot of people around me. I have one character who is Seeker-Ready and another closing in on that level, but I have nothing Seeker or Seeker+.
My initial thoughts when I heard the announcement were very much "but, my babies!" but the more I let 2.0 sink in the more I am looking forward to the opportunity to move forward with my friends all on the same level as everyone else and really embrace the ability to be here on Day 1.
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I have absolutely been feeling the sense of loss that this transition has created for so much of the community. I have so many characters whose stories I want to continue, and even more that I have ideas/and or boons for but haven't created yet. Still I want to continue those stories in 1E, and if 2E seems worthwhile use some of my new ideas there. I also support a blank slate for 2E.
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I understand the want to have everyone start with a new PF2 PC, and I agree that we shouldn't be able to transfer all our PCs to PF2 builds -- but for mercy's sake, please let us keep at least ONE PC!
I dunno, maybe everyone is allowed to convert one PC, plus one for each GM Star, and follow strict procedures on how to adapt that PC to PF2.
So a 5-Star GM can choose six PCs and rebuild them using the procedure for converting current PCs to PF2. A 2-Star GM can choose, IF he or she wishes, to select up to three PCs to convert to PF2.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE consider this.
We all know that PF1 and options to play our PCs will sooner rather than later dwindle to nothing
THE MOTION IS SECONDED!!!
Gods, don't make me start all freakin' over again.Things are just getting interesting-! Let us have ONE, at least- we've already got to buy a whole new book to keep up!
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I understand the want to have everyone start with a new PF2 PC, and I agree that we shouldn't be able to transfer all our PCs to PF2 builds -- but for mercy's sake, please let us keep at least ONE PC!
I dunno, maybe everyone is allowed to convert one PC, plus one for each GM Star, and follow strict procedures on how to adapt that PC to PF2.
So a 5-Star GM can choose six PCs and rebuild them using the procedure for converting current PCs to PF2. A 2-Star GM can choose, IF he or she wishes, to select up to three PCs to convert to PF2.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE consider this.
We all know that PF1 and options to play our PCs will sooner rather than later dwindle to nothing
THE MOTION IS SECONDED!!!
Gods, don't make me start all freakin' over again.
Things are just getting interesting-! Let us have ONE, at least- we've already got to buy a whole new book to keep up!
Hear, hear!
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I support something in between a scorched earth blank slate and converting PCs.
Blank slate means nothing carries over: PCs, boons, stars (and that should mean your Service Coins and Wayfinders, too, if you're advocating a blank slate), so be sure you know what you're advocating when you say 2e should have a blank slate. I don't advocate that idea.
Converting our characters causes several problems: since 1e continues, you could--if you have enough venues--keep playing that character you "converted" to 2e, letting you double your higher level characters, and the system won't support your exact character, and the material won't be ready for your character's level.
There are ways around some of that (such as a 8th level 1e character breaks down into N% of a 8th level character in 2e, even if they have to sit on their hands until content catches up), but ultimately, I don't see porting characters as workable.
However, there has to be some system where the things we've earned (or won) translates into something in the new system.
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I don’t think there does. You wouldn’t carry anything with you to AL, so you don’t NEED to carry anything to PFS2E. It is desirable to give back to those that have committed time and energy to the campaign. I’m on board with the idea of 1xp or equivalent per GM Star. I would support something similarly simple for long running players. But really, this is the one chance to break with ten years of changing requirements and old systems. Anything kept needs to be well considered. And previous edition characters, much as I hate it, should not be kept on in the new.
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Let me rephrase for clarity...
There surely must exist in all the creative minds some system that would allow for some portion of what we've earned (boons, stars) translates into something in the new system.
I was not saying that Paizo is obligated to create that system. I'm hopeful... wishful?
Moving off of that to a different portion of the comment: nothing carries over to AL because it is 1) a different company and 2) a different campaign world.
PF to SF is 1) the same company but 2) a different campaign world.
PFS1e to PFS2e is 1) the same comapny and 2) the same campaign world.
If they created a hypothetical second campaign setting using PF1 rules, I wouldn't assume any carry over because even though it's 1) the same company, it's 2) a different campaign world.
The AL example is as inaccurate as saying it's the same as trying to carry my MtG cards over to the ACG.
Now, if I have misunderstood the intent of PF2, and the rules are going to be so radically different that race and class don't mean the same things that they did in PF1, then maybe there's not a way to convert the cosmetic modifiers we've earned into the new system. However, I was under the impression that this was supposed to be a revamping of the rules. We'd still have races, classes, skills, feats, roll d20s to hit things, AC is 10 + modifiers, stats would be on the 3-18+ scale, etc.
If I'm off on that, I may change my tune.
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I like the idea of a sliding scale of exp that can be allocated in a one-time deal based on how much one has GM'd and played in PF1.
ie, with lower play/GM time one gets more 'oomph' but with more time one gets 'less' because one had a chance to enjoy the PF1 story more.
With GM credits perhaps counting double in whatever calculation is worked out?
I'm spitballing here, does this sound even workable?
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And I apologize for my post earlier.
Between high-running emotions and the often inarticulate medium mere text provides, I did you guys and myself a disservice by being fallaciously condescending at best and insulting at worst.
What I was trying to articulate through the hot collar, is that 'for me' -- I don't enjoy organized play very much; *I* have much less fun gaming in game stores and convention halls and within the standardized game than I do in home games. That in the ten years I've been doing PFS I only have three mid level PCs because I just don't play that often. I only do it to help promote Paizo and support our FLGS -- and yes, with the hopes that every once in a great while I can maybe go to a Con and play at the higher levels (which I prefer).
I explain this not to diminish my apology, which I owe, but just to explain my feeling. The apology is sincere.
As is my frustration that, after nearly a decade of supporting PFS in my area and only recently getting a couple PCs to my favored levels, it will all be wasted. (Remember when I want to play for fun I play a homegame; I play PFS only to support Paizo and to have the chance to experience a big Convention (and I just don't believe the big Cons will support PFS, only PF2S).)
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Wow, this new transition is already bringing people together! Yay for awkward agreement!
From those of us at the top of the mountain it's easy to say, lets start from scratch for the new mountain.
For those only halfway up it's a much tougher pill to swallow.
There's always a bit that says even if I'm not enjoying this particular bit of game, I know it's contributing to a larger whole and there'll be payoff later. That payoff might be progress towards the next star, or being able to play higher level adventures or even just seeing a character through retirement.
A clean slate makes some of those steps a bitter pill to swallow. Imagine you like to play your special boon race on slow track and you play them once a month. Before that boon was worth 5.5 years of exciting and unique play. Memories made that could last a lifetime. Without any ability to hold that over the same boon at GenCon this coming year is only worth a year...
I see the issues, and I see the desire to hold things over. I see how it's a problem for current motivation.
I also think it's better to start fresh. It absolutely sucks for people halfway up the mountain but I think it's the best way forward.
I love your mountain analogy, Rob. I started at the very beginning of Season 6, when everyone had brand new aasimars and tieflings that they had created in the previous week. And by everyone, I mean everyone. I played with whole tables of brand new aasimars and tieflings. And boy, did I feel a bit left out.
Still, I persevered and found joy in the characters that I could have.
Now I'm fairly close to that summit in PFS. After 3.5 years of playing, my -1 Zahra, is almost a seeker! I have 4 active characters in levels 6-8, two active characters at level 4, and the rest are GM babies. Maybe I will develop them, or maybe I’ll let them continue to lie fallow.
I have never been able to focus on more than a few characters at a time, so my focus for the next year and a half will be...
Regarding to gifting boons, that is exactly what I do and the smiles on peoples face when they get an unexpected race boon as a gift is worth much more than potential of maybe trading it away or waiting to create a character I really don't need. Thanks to GMing way to many conventions I have plenty of GM babies I will never use.. but considering the rate I get character ideas.. that was already going to happen and has nothing to do with our exciting transition to PFS2.
That's more than 25 GM boons earned, I used maybe 2 and gifted the others to charity raffles or individual players. While it might reduce the desire to GM locally, it was absolutely worth it.
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I for one am much more excited and much less apprehensive about the change/reboot of Pathfinder after spending the weekend at GaryCon. I got to talk to Jason, Tonya, and several Venture critters and regular players that got to play in the charity play test games and the overwhelming majority of reactions were positive.
I have only been playing/Gming PFS for about 2 years, but in that time I have had a blast and got to meet an outstanding community of people and make many great friendships. I fully intend to get my -1 to Seeker level before I retire him. I have about three other characters that are a joy to play that will also continue to advance in PFS1.
I was excited about starting StarFinder from the ground up and jumped in with both feet! I missed getting into PFS1 from the start, I WILL NOT miss getting into PFS2 at the ground floor and think it is awesome to have the opportunity to shape the face of the game and the Society during the playtest!
Most of us hate change, many of us went through the edition wars of D&D, Living City, ect, and I don't believe this is the start of that in Pathfinder. Remember, at almost every Convention there are still people who are playing basic D&D, just like Im sure there will be people in 10 years at Cons still playing Pathfinder Classic!
Its great to live in exciting times!
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Remember, at almost every Convention there are still people who are playing basic D&D, just like Im sure there will be people in 10 years at Cons still playing Pathfinder Classic!
I will preface my comment by saying that I fully intend to be an early adopter of PF2 (aside: even though that undercuts my voice as expressed in dollars to a corporate entity).
But is anyone playing Living Greyhawk D&D 2nd edition in any manner that matters at conventions?
I could find a group of people online to play home PFS1e, but then it's just PF, not PFS and suffers the same attrition as any other online home campaign.
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There is a dedicated group of players who create new material for Living Greyhawk at Winter War (Champaign-Urbana, Illinois) every year, usually 2-3 adventures. They have updated from v3.5 to PF because of the perceived “fixes” that Paizo worked into the system, but they are essentially still playing LG in the same form as they did when it was supported by WotC. Sure, that’s a small representation, but it goes to show that dedicated gamers can keep an OP campaign going for years past it’s “end.” And remember, Paizo is not killing PFS1 like WotC did to LG, so it is much more likely there will be players who want to continue playing PFS1 material long after PFS2 launches.
EDIT— one interesting aspect now that I think about it is most of those LG players are also avid PFS players. So they chose not to play some current OP in order to play a “dead” campaign. That goes to demonstrate that not everyone is devoted only to the currently supported campaign.
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That's essentially a home game and not 2nd edition, which was my point. Your example is closer to a dedicated group of people revising all the old scenarios to play in PF2 rules. Yes, people may play PF1e, and I can certainly play PF1e if I find someone to play it with (like PbP). But I'm talking about Con offerings.
Given that OP is a marketing tool--a fun one, but a tool to drive product sales nonetheless--how many years do you honestly believe that there will be PFS1e tables at PaizoCon and GenCon?
...although, apologies, this has nothing to do with keeping PCs (the subject of this thread). The porting of PCs whole cloth? I'm not seeing a reasonable way to do it.
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I understand that you don't want to lose the characters you love. But have you no room for love of the new characters to be created?
The first characters are going to be filled with errors, false starts, and errata'ed materials. From gloves of reconnaissance to Crane Style, things will change that will affect how your character works, and that will frustrate us. So do you really want that PFS1e character that you ported over to be the bearer of that responsibility?
Don't get me wrong, I love my 23 characters, two of which are seekers. I ran 50 games from mid-Jan to the beginning of August last year to reach my 5 stars by Gen Con. I have a Rougarou/Catfolk/Naiad that is unused. I organized or attended 13 conventions last year, earning that many convention boons. Empathy, I have.
But logic rules, and I know that I do not want to bring over my characters. I want to start with a clean slate. I don't want to have reference materials and endless things to sort with a GM before sitting at a table because I have a legacy PFS1e character. I want to embrace 2.0 with all the new and shiny it can be. I don't want to tarnish it with complicated cross over information that we don't fully understand... and let's face it, it would be another thing to argue over in these same forums.
Before your mourning begins, we have 5 months before the playtest comes out. And another year beyond before 2.0 becomes the standard. If you have that character that you do not want to see go - PLAY IT! By the gods, there is plenty of time to retire one or two. Attend conventions, support your community. Play online. Play that character until it hits seeker, and then let it go.
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If you have that character that you do not want to see go - PLAY IT! By the gods, there is plenty of time to retire one or two. Attend conventions, support your community. Play online. Play that character until it hits seeker, and then let it go.
Would love to. Are you volunteering to drive down here to babysit? To cover my shifts at work on the weekends?
If not, I have approximately 17 PFS scenarios to play, 17 XP to earn.
I get it. You long time players are completely fine with letting go of your long played characters and the things you earned. There are lots of people who can play 3 sessions on Saturday and 1 on Wednesday every week. There is, however, a portion of indeterminate size of the PFS population that is going to lose the chance to seek Seeker.
Telling us to "PLAY IT" is not a constructive solution to our situation.
In the end, we are very likely just going to have to suck it up, toss our GM boons in the trash, and start all over. But telling us that all we have to do is "PLAY IT" is not encouraging, it's disheartening because that is exactly the opportunity we're losing.
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As much as I dislike the idea of some of my characters never getting to the end of their PFS careers, I think that while a blank may hurt, like a band-aid being ripped off, the pain will be momentary and you and I will get over it.
I think that there are plenty of ways to keep playing those characters you have since none of PFS1.0 is being shelved away. If pjrogers wants to keep on playing Lady Ayr Hed, he can! But he will have to keep in mind that the number of scenarios he can play her in is now finite.
I personally think you can get up to 20-25 characters played, with varying amounts of GM credit, GM replays and other promotional boons.
I think that converting characters, considering the plethora of material currently available compared to the limited amount of material that will be initially available will turn any attempt into a logistical nightmare. Better to start fresh.
Insofar as long-time players who wish a "Hey, thank you for participating" boon, I believe the OPF will need to figure that out. A small boon might be cool but I won't shed tears if it doesn't happen.
Insofar as stars translating to something cool for PFS2.0, I will channel Dave Chapelle by saying "S$~@ MAN, I JUST GOT MY STARS!", and hope you can take a minute and appreciate the humor. But on a more serious note, I would appreciate a benefit that has nothing to do with getting a character.