I've been reading around two-weapon fighting and full attack actions. There are things I disagree with and things that I need some clarification on. For now, only clarification, so here goes.
On a full attack action, you can make your first attack, then after seeing the results decide if you want to take a move action instead of continuing. Or at any point during take your 5ft step.
Two-Weapon Fighting requires a full round for the extra attack, which would have the appropriate penalty. However it raises my question.
By full attack rules, you're not locked into it. Hell you can decide to attack normally and if the thing doesn't go down use your follow up attacks if you haven't moved. So when are two weapon penalties applied?
Example: Player is playing a character weilding 2 tonfas, with two separate magical abilities. Tonfa A has an ability that it does more damage if a target has full HP, tonfa B does more to targets that have taken damage since the beginning of your last turn (Don't care if those are real magic item qualities or not, not the point). At level 6, on Fighter BAB they have +6/+1. Dropping into combat, against an undamaged target, it makes best sense to use their primary attack with tonfa A, then the second attack (after a hit) with tonfa B. This isn't two weapon fighting or an extra attack with the off hand weapon, it's a second attack they'd recieve normally. If they missed the first the secondary could be with tonfa A again, which wouldn't even have 2 weapons.
Is the tonfa player, who is not using two-weapon fighting, penalized for holding 2 weapons at all?
Another example: Player is a non-monk, non-brawler using improved unarmed strike. Both their fists are weapons, so they are always weilding 2 weapons by proxy? If they have a weapon in one hand, and at that multi-attack level choose to, for arguements sake, use the weapon for strike 1, kill an enemy, and then for their subsequent attack throw a punch because their other target is vulnerable to bludgeoning.
Are they penalized for both attacks because that fist is always technically an option?
Third example: A character with a longsword and shield. The sheild can be used for a shield bash, making it a second weapon. It woukd neutrally be held in the off-hand and the longsword is not light.
Should their shield bashes be taking an off-hand penalty?
Example four: A character with two weapon fighting, they full attack without choosing to use both weapons. Perhaps because of exploiting a vulnerability.
If he full attacks with just one of his weapons is he still penalized?
Additional issues: Improvised weapons. Spells and weapons. Double weapons at all (since they're two weapons).
Two-Weapon Fighting requires a full round for the extra attack, which would have the appropriate penalty. However it raises my question.
By full attack rules, you're not locked into it. Hell you can decide to attack normally and if the thing doesn't go down use your follow up attacks if you haven't moved. So when are two weapon penalties applied?
Yes, I see a conflict between rules here too.
As a GM, I'd go as far as applying the penalty retroactively. If a player doesn't announce a full-attack but attacks only once, they don't suffer the penalty - since they are not fighting with two weapons yet. But if they afterwards decide to use additional attacks from the TWF feat etc., their first attack roll gets retroactively reduced. This probably means the monster gets some health back, or even comes back from the death, but honestly, at least the latter should be quite rare.
Two weapon fighting penalties are only applied when you would get an extra attack that you normally wouldn't have.
Keep in mind in all your scenarios, all off hand attacks would be doing off hand damage (ie half strength).
by activating TWF full round action you're locked into that full round action which is different from the full attack full round action.
if you don't activate TWF for the extra attack you don't have any penalties.
this faq shows that there are many full attack actions that are actually a little different and lock you into your choice. basically things that effects you full attack lock you in. So for me it's easier to explain that they are different full round actions that are all counting as full attacks.
This FAQ may answer some of your questions.
Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1
All of these combinations result in you making exactly two attacks, one at +6 and one at +1. You're not getting any extra attacks, therefore you're not using the two-weapon fighting rule, and therefore you're not taking any two-weapon fighting penalties.
If you have Quick Draw, you could even start the round wielding only one weapon, make your main attack with it, draw the second weapon as a free action after your first attack, and use that second weapon to make your iterative attack (an "iterative attack" is an informal term meaning "extra attacks you get from having a high BAB"). As long as you're properly using the BAB values for your iterative attacks, and as long as you're not exceeding the number of attacks per round granted by your BAB, you are not considered to be using two-weapon fighting, and therefore do not take any of the penalties for two-weapon fighting.
The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting.
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."
By full attack rules, you're not locked into it. Hell you can decide to attack normally and if the thing doesn't go down use your follow up attacks if you haven't moved. So when are two weapon penalties applied?
Isn't it the other way around?
What you're describing here is someone deciding to make a full attack after they've made their first attack. Which of course is a problem when you're supposed to apply the TWF penalty.
You don't have the ability to change your standard attack action into a full attack, you have the ability to cancel your full attack, turning it into a standard attack.
Here's how it goes down mechanically.
Player A announces that he's making a full attack, suffering the TWF penalty on his first attack and every attack after that. He hits with his first attack (with the -2 penalty), and kills his target. There is no enemy in range for him to continue the full attack, so he decides to cancel his full attack and uses his move action for something else.
Player B announces that he's attacking the enemy in front of him, choosing not to take the TWF penalty. He hits, but doesn't kill his opponent. If he has iterative attacks, he can continue attacking. But he will not gain another attack from TWF, since that choice is made when you announce your full attack.
this faq shows that there are many full attack actions that are actually a little different and lock you into your choice. basically things that effects you full attack lock you in. So for me it's easier to explain that they are different full round actions that are all counting as full attacks.
The singular instance of the FAQ on manyshot is not an indication that lots of other things lock you into a full round action full attack. Given its singularity, it is an exception, not the standard.
While I'm not really on board the whole 'FAQs only apply to the specific question asked' that goes around these boards as clearly a number of FAQs don't follow that principle, I feel that is applicable here. A FAQ on a specific feat that has a built in extra attack as part of the first attack you make is specific to that feat, and should not be applied wholesale to the rules.
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Keep this in mind. You are only TWF when you gain an extra attack with your off hand (Or would have if you had continued beyond your first attack)
When you declare that you are TWF, it is then that you incur the penalties for doing so, no matter if you end up using the full attack or deciding after the first attack to rethink your situation and leave it at that point.
Your forth example, the character would only gain the extra attack with the off hand weapon, so it is that weapon that needs to be used for that attack. (No, you can't TWF with just one weapon) If the character just uses the full attack of the single weapon, he would not be taking TWF penalties. (Sixth level fighter hitting with a +6/+1 base, for example)
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If you intend to use TWF you apply TWF penalties to your first attack. You CAN then change your mind, but the penalty was still applied.
If you make your first attack WITHOUT applying TWF penalties then you cannot TWF that round.
TWF penalties do not apply to holding weapons in each hand. Only attacking with them both.