Oozemorph, lets talk morphic weapons and game mechanics

[zazzenfuk]

SO I am looking at the oozemorph shifter archetype. I have perused a few forums but have not come up with a solid answers. Im sorry if someone just finds a post that I blatantly missed with answers.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2usce?Oozemorph-shifter-and-breaking-the-laws#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upgo?Playing-an-Oozemorph-The-mega-thread#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ur49?Morphic-Weapons-What-are-they#1
...etc.

Here is what I am thinking and I want to get a consensus on it. say this is a 10th lvl oozemaster with 3 morphic weapons

1: Morphic weapons and feats
"An oozemorph can create a number of natural weapons to fight with from any portion of her body, regardless of her current form. "
-This doesnt specify the type of natural weapon you can make. Do you assume its anything on the list for natural weapons even though it has specific damage in the archetype with your choice of damage type? could you take a feat that required certain natural weapons such as Rending claws, and treat your morphic weapon as a"claw" natural attack?

-How does this interact with the rule of natural weapons and strength bonus to damage with Power attack?
"a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls."
Your primary attack is with your morphic weapon unless you use a manufactured weapon; then it becomes a 2ndary. you have 3 so you get 3 attacks; would you add 1.5 damage each attack because you get 3 attacks that are the same source/type?
or are the rules implying that if you had only 1 attack from 1 natural weapon you get the 1.5 bonus?

here is a example of what I am trying to figure out, A full attack action. Take a oozemorph at level 11 a strength score of 20 with multiattack, power attack, weapon focus (morphic Weapon)
BAB:11 str +5 Weapon focus +1 POwer attack -3

Morphic Weapon +17/+17/+17 1d6+5. or is it 1d6+7 from 1 natural weapon?
now add in a club:Full attack action
Club 16/11/6 1d6+6 & Morphic weapon 15/15/15 1d8+3

Say we add in power attack:
Morphic Weapon +14/+14/+14 1d6+5+6 or is it 1d6+7+9?
now add in a club:Full attack action
Club 13/8/3 1d6+6+6 & Morphic weapon 12/12/12 1d8+3+3 (or +6)
Is my math correct here?

Many thanks to responses, sorry for the poor formatting regarding links.

[zazzenfuk]

Also I forgot to ask

Greater magic fang spell, would it count for your morphic weapon in the sense that all of them would the bonus to hit and damage or only one of them?

[Azothath]

be a Gummi Bard

[Syries]

You have more than one natural attack, so you do not get 1.5x str modifier, even though you only have one natural weapon type.
In the oozemorphs case, the morphic weapons are their own natural attack- they are not a bite, gore, claw, or anything else, even if the forms of the morphic weapons look like those types of attacks.

You wouldn't need multiattack as an oozemorph as all your base attacks are primary.

Magic fang applies to a single natural weapon type- claws, gore, bite, etc. So magic fang would apply to Morphic weapons and apply to all attacks that count as morphic weapons.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Any discussion on this Archetype is a bit premature, as the design team has indicated that there needs to be an examination of the base class and the Archetypes.

Not shutting down the conversation though... who knows what insight might be gathered.

[PossibleCabbage]

Syries wrote:

You wouldn't need multiattack as an oozemorph as all your base attacks are primary.

Multiattack is useful for the Oozemorph because Morphic Weapon attacks are limited by the number of natural attacks your form gets, but not by the number of manufactured weapon attacks you make. Since combining natural attacks and manuractured weapon attacks turn your primary natural attacks into secondary weapon attacks, turning the -5 to a -2 is useful.

A 7th level Oozemorph with multiattack and a weapon can manage an attack progression of +7/+2 and +5/+5/+5 on top.

[Syries]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Syries wrote:

You wouldn't need multiattack as an oozemorph as all your base attacks are primary.

Multiattack is useful for the Oozemorph because Morphic Weapon attacks are limited by the number of natural attacks your form gets, but not by the number of manufactured weapon attacks you make. Since combining natural attacks and manuractured weapon attacks turn your primary natural attacks into secondary weapon attacks, turning the -5 to a -2 is useful.

A 7th level Oozemorph with multiattack and a weapon can manage an attack progression of +7/+2 and +5/+5/+5 on top.

Right, that's true, I didn't consider that.

[nighttree]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Syries wrote:

You wouldn't need multiattack as an oozemorph as all your base attacks are primary.

Multiattack is useful for the Oozemorph because Morphic Weapon attacks are limited by the number of natural attacks your form gets, but not by the number of manufactured weapon attacks you make. Since combining natural attacks and manuractured weapon attacks turn your primary natural attacks into secondary weapon attacks, turning the -5 to a -2 is useful.

A 7th level Oozemorph with multiattack and a weapon can manage an attack progression of +7/+2 and +5/+5/+5 on top.

Hrrmmmm.....now I need to consider if I should take two more levels of Oozemorph to get that third NA.....

EDIT: I want to make sure I'm getting this right.....my build thus far is Oozemorph 4, the rest in Brawler.

So if I'm in humanoid form, and choose to use a weapon as my primary...with two weapon fighting/Feral combat training....do I even need multi attack ?

Or would I go weapon (primary) weapon (secondary) morphic weapon x2 (secondary) ?

[Chess Pwn]

nighttree wrote:

Hrrmmmm.....now I need to consider if I should take two more levels of Oozemorph to get that third NA.....

EDIT: I want to make sure I'm getting this right.....my build thus far is Oozemorph 4, the rest in Brawler.

So if I'm in humanoid form, and choose to use a weapon as my primary...with two weapon fighting/Feral combat training....do I even need multi attack ?

Or would I go weapon (primary) weapon (secondary) morphic weapon x2 (secondary) ?

So first to be aware is that you can't add natural attacks with your flurry, so you'll either need to pick up the TWF feat normally or not get natural attacks.

So it with flurry it'd be weapon full bab-2 weapon full bab -2 and as you level eventually weapon full bab-2 weapon full bab -2 weapon full bab -7 weapon full bab -7

If you have the TWF feats then feral combat training does nothing.

So really with FCT and Flurry you don't need more than 1 natural weapon.

[nighttree]

Chess Pwn wrote:

So first to be aware is that you can't add natural attacks with your flurry, so you'll either need to pick up the TWF feat normally or not get natural attacks.

So it with flurry it'd be weapon full bab-2 weapon full bab -2 and as you level eventually weapon full bab-2 weapon full bab -2 weapon full bab -7 weapon full bab -7

If you have the TWF feats then feral combat training does nothing.

So really with FCT and Flurry you don't need more than 1 natural weapon.

I thought the whole point of Feral Combat Training was to allow natural weapons to work with TWF/Flurry ???

EDIT: are you saying there is a significant mechanical difference between TWF and Flurry ? (damn.....now I'm getting really confused)....

[graystone]

nighttree wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

So first to be aware is that you can't add natural attacks with your flurry, so you'll either need to pick up the TWF feat normally or not get natural attacks.

So it with flurry it'd be weapon full bab-2 weapon full bab -2 and as you level eventually weapon full bab-2 weapon full bab -2 weapon full bab -7 weapon full bab -7

If you have the TWF feats then feral combat training does nothing.

So really with FCT and Flurry you don't need more than 1 natural weapon.

I thought the whole point of Feral Combat Training was to allow natural weapons to work with TWF/Flurry ???

EDIT: are you saying there is a significant mechanical difference between TWF and Flurry ? (damn.....now I'm getting really confused)....

feral combat training allows you to use the natural weapon IN PLACE OF the weapon you'd normally use in the flurry [monk weapon or unarmed strike]. It's not to allow natural weapon IN ADDITION to the flurry.

Normal, non-flurry/brawler's flurry allows natural weapons in addition to natural weapon attacks in the same action.

EDIT/clarification: feral combat: you get a single claw, bite, gore, ect and you that single weapon in flurry/brawler's flurry.

TWF: you can do boulder helmet, armor spikes and all your morphic weapons.

[Chess Pwn]

Yes.
flurry via brawler or monk doesn't allow for natural attacks after the "manufactured weapon" bab attacks in the flurry.
FCT lets you use a natural attack as your "manufactured weapon" in a flurry.
TWF has no interactions with FCT and you can make natural attacks after your "manufactured weapon" bab attacks with all natural attacks becoming secondary.
"manufactured weapon" includes unarmed strikes.

[nighttree]

graystone wrote:

feral combat training allows you to use the natural weapon IN PLACE OF the weapon you'd normally use in the flurry [monk weapon or unarmed strike]. It's not to allow natural weapon IN ADDITION to the flurry.

Normal, non-flurry/brawler's flurry allows natural weapons in addition to natural weapon attacks in the same action.

EDIT/clarification: feral combat: you get a single claw, bite, gore, ect and you that single weapon in flurry/brawler's flurry.

TWF: you can do boulder helmet, armor spikes and all your morphic weapons.

I think I understand.....so I could use a primary weapon for my first hit....then use my (say two) Morphic weapons for my next hits (total of three)....but not weapon + weapon + morphic weapon + morphic weapon.....correct ?

EDIT: Nope wait....your saying it can't add additional attacks no matter what....correct ?

[nighttree]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Yes.

flurry via brawler or monk doesn't allow for natural attacks after the "manufactured weapon" bab attacks in the flurry.
FCT lets you use a natural attack as your "manufactured weapon" in a flurry.
TWF has no interactions with FCT and you can make natural attacks after your "manufactured weapon" bab attacks with all natural attacks becoming secondary.
"manufactured weapon" includes unarmed strikes.

I feel like an Oozemorph in an anti-magic field.....why do people think keeping track of spells is so much harder than melee stuff :P

[Chess Pwn]

Normal monk brawler using IUS and having 2 morphic weapons.
Options are
Flurry for IUS-2/IUS-2
full attack for IUS/MW-5/MW-5
Full attack MW/MW

With FCT
Flurry for IUS-2/IUS-2
Flurry for MW-2/MW-2
full attack for IUS/MW-5/MW-5
Full attack MW/MW

Someone with TWF
full attack for IUS-2/IUS-2/MW-5/MW-5

[graystone]

nighttree wrote:

graystone wrote:

feral combat training allows you to use the natural weapon IN PLACE OF the weapon you'd normally use in the flurry [monk weapon or unarmed strike]. It's not to allow natural weapon IN ADDITION to the flurry.

Normal, non-flurry/brawler's flurry allows natural weapons in addition to natural weapon attacks in the same action.

EDIT/clarification: feral combat: you get a single claw, bite, gore, ect and you that single weapon in flurry/brawler's flurry.

TWF: you can do boulder helmet, armor spikes and all your morphic weapons.

I think I understand.....so I could use a primary weapon for my first hit....then use my (say two) Morphic weapons for my next hits (total of three)....but not weapon + weapon + morphic weapon + morphic weapon.....correct ?

EDIT: Nope wait....your saying it can't add additional attacks no matter what....correct ?

If you flurry/brawlers flurry there are NO extra natural weapons allowed at all. All feral does is allow a natural weapon to replace your normal weapon in the flurry. So feral doesn't add any attacks, just allows a different weapon [natural attack] to be used in the normal attack routine. So if a flurry allowed you to make 3 attacks, you could make those with your single natural attack [bite, bite, bite], your 'manufactured' weapon [staff, staff, staff] or [punch, punch, punch] or a combo of those [staff, punch, bite]. At no point does feral allow more that the normal flurry amount, it just adds a new weapon option.

[nighttree]

Thanks to both of you for your patience....I don't do melee types generally, and I'm finding this particular combo confusing.

So if I have this right....I can choose to flurry with weapons....or I can choose to flurry with morphic weapons.....but there is no way to get both melee and morphic weapons off in the same round....correct ?

I think the toothy cabbages comments about multiattack got me all sorts of turned around :P

EDIT: No....what your saying is I can (pre-6th level) choose to do morphic x3 at full BA. OR weapon (full BA) + Morphic x2 (at -2 BA) OR Morphic x2 (at full BA) and 1 manufactured weapon strike (at -2)......correct ?

[graystone]

nighttree wrote:

So if I have this right....I can choose to flurry with weapons....or I can choose to flurry with morphic weapons.....but there is no way to get both melee and morphic weapons off in the same round....correct ?

Well you COULD get both, you're just not getting extra: Feral allows the natural weapon to be treated like a manufactured one with the monk quality. So you could mix that natural weapon in with any other manufactured weapons in the flurry.

To keep it simple, just think of the natural weapon with feral as any other monk weapon when you flurry and not a natural weapon. So in this case Morphic Weapon [with feral] is the same as a spiked gauntlet or an unarmed strike as far as a brawler's flurry is concerned. If you had all three you could pick any of those for either of the 2 attacks you get for the basic brawler's flurry.

For multiattack, that's for 'normal' non-flurry fighting. You get your normal attacks + the multiattack at -2. So you can get a normal 2 handed attack and all morphic weapons at -2 hit, 1/2 dam.

nighttree wrote:

EDIT: No....what your saying is I can (pre-6th level) choose to do morphic x3 at full BA. OR weapon (full BA) + Morphic x2 (at -2 BA) OR Morphic x2 (at full BA) and 1 manufactured weapon strike (at -2)......correct ?

1-5th you only have 2 morphic weapons so you could do:

2 full BAB morphic weapons or
1 full BAB weapon or
1 full BAB weapon and 2 -2 morphic weapons [1/2 str]