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played this at a convention recently and it sounded like the encounter with the
was heavily under CR'ed with the proscribed tactics, that or the GM was just being viciously cruel.
They wait for you at the bottom, then one turns into a whirlwind. engulfs characters. and spits them out. The GM was having the air elementals engulf, then fly up 50 ft, and spit out characters to fall 50 ft. instead of dealing pummelling damage to them from within the whirlwind.
he argued that they could go as high as 100 ft because its not an action for the elemental to pick up characters in the whirlwind, and they don't have to stay in contact with the ground when they do this, they can use their 100 ' fly speed and fly up as a double move and then drop characters for 10d6 falling damage.
I tried to reason with him that this was a deadly tactic at any apl and that if the elementals were going to alternate doing this for 4 rounds each, we were as good as dead. He seemed to indicate that this was the tactic the module says for him to use.
If so ( and i haven't run it myself so i haven't read it or bought it to double check it since the mod ), i take issue at the CR of this encounter. I didn't stop the game to have a big rules debate. but i did take 2 minutes to point out that whirlwind says it deposits creatures in the monster's square. he interpreted that to mean they could do so at any point, and after moving up each round to basically dive bomb us with a whirlwind.
can anyone clarify if this is how the elementals are being run?
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Your DM is almost correct. ** spoiler omitted **
ok, yeah i feel that seriously threatens the lives of every pathfinder, i'm surprised there's not more TPKs reported with this mod.
plus its a stupid tactic with the prevelance of featherfall. We didn't have it, so it nearly ganked us, but any team with the spell would be unaffected by the whirlwind dropping them.
::looks at cover to be sure never to play/run a mod by this writer again::
Well (as the author) I am certainly very sorry to hear about your frustration with this encounter! I always strive to give creatures interesting tactics and environments, which sometimes is difficult - especially at the higher levels where the defenses of different groups can vary dramatically. I'm sorry it didn't gel well with your group, but thanks for letting me (and others) know; it's always helpful to get feedback on what worked and what didn't.
Happy gaming!
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Well (as the author) I am certainly very sorry to hear about your frustration with this encounter! I always strive to give creatures interesting tactics and environments, which sometimes is difficult - especially at the higher levels where the defenses of different groups can vary dramatically. I'm sorry it didn't gel well with your group, but thanks for letting me (and others) know; it's always helpful to get feedback on what worked and what didn't.
Happy gaming!
thanks.
i still haven't run it / read it. but the gm seemed to indicate that the same tactics were valid vs. the low tier, and that just didn't seem right.he also wasn't dealing the normal damage for the whirlwind, just dropping us. it just seemed like an in appropriate use of the whirlwind attack. picking people up and pummeling them around is enough damage for an area effect attack, before dropping them 60 ft. we were playing up. but this was by far the hardest encounter we hit just because of that tactic.
i still haven't run it / read it. but the gm seemed to indicate that the same tactics were valid vs. the low tier, and that just didn't seem right.
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good to know.
still in the middle tier, if you get one group that doesn't have fly/featherfall or gets surprised by the elemental, everyone could theoretically fail their reflex save, take whirlwind damage, and then take 6d6 falling damage each. ...
if that doesn't kill some groups it will probably kill at least one party member.
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good to know.
still in the middle tier, if you get one group that doesn't have fly/featherfall or gets surprised by the elemental, everyone could theoretically fail their reflex save, take whirlwind damage, and then take 6d6 falling damage each. ...
if that doesn't kill some groups it will probably kill at least one party member.
This is theoretically possible, but as someone who's GMed it at the mid tier, not likely. The mid-tier elemental only gets 4 rounds of whirlwind per day. Plus, remember that you need to fail 2 saves to get scooped up - failing the first save, you take slam damage but that's it.
When I ran, I wound up picking up the druid with my first swoop, with the 60-foot fall dropping her to exactly 1 hp. My second or third swoop scooped up the eidolon, and the fall would have 'killed' it if the summoner hadn't been able to take considerable damage to keep her pet ticking. The other players I approached passed at least the second Reflex save to avoid been scooped up.
The elemental then continued making hit-and-run attacks after the whirlwind was expended, and was eventually burnt to death by continual flame spells.
I also heard of another group who had a sorcerer packing feather fall - the encounter was basically game over from round 1.
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I ran this at Tier 6-7 and found that the whirlwind 60ft drop is atmospherically scary, but that the actual average drop damage of 21 HP isn't huge
The main issue here seems to be that you were dropped from 100ft when the max drop height is 60ft.
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ran this finally last night at the middle tier. which went phenominally badly. six pcs. only one with a ring of featherfall.
A large elemental can make a whilrwind 20 ft. wide at the top, 5' at the base. The PCs didn't have a rogue, and didn't find the Belltower trap, alerting the elemental they were coming. They climbed down, and in the first round, four of them were within range of the elemental's whirlwind, all managing to avoid getting picked up, but 3 of them took 1d8+4 damage.
( no clerics in the group. a druid, an alchemist, a paladin 3, a bard 2/sorcerer 1, a fighter 1, and a magus ). round 2 of the whirlwind, three people were picked up, and ejected off the balcony, i only dropped them 40 ft, but they took an average of 20 damage each. round 3 , even though they were scattered, the fighter ( 1st level ) was down. the elemental still had plenty of movement to move around the room, damage/pick up the scattered pcs and prepare to drop them again. only picking up one, on the fourth and final round it flew her up 60 ft and dropped her to true death. ( -16 hp with a 10 con. ), before finishing its whirlwind form and flying down to fight the surviving PCs.
the rest of the mod was pretty close too, just with the final encounter, but that was mostly because they didn't have a lot of healing available.
the rogues couldn't engage the pcs in the hallway much, and retreated to the gallows room, which just made the last fight a little harder.
the tactics should be toned down for mid tier. its bad enough getting damaged, and/or picked up, without getting dropped in the mid tier.
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the tactics should be toned down for mid tier. its bad enough getting damaged, and/or picked up, without getting dropped in the mid tier.
I disagree. The monsters should use their full range of abilities. The rest of the adventure is pretty much a push over, so having that one, tough encounter is great.
I did get my own backside kicked in that encounter... (at least my party did) and we loved it. That's why you buy consumables and use them...
JP
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I have not read the scenario either, but when I played it the far more concerning part was...
This was one of those things where the way the scenario was written really made us lose our sense of immersion. They had apparently been hanging there for a while, so the decision on how long they had to live was quite arbitrary. It wasn't anything I did, it was just a "roll to see how long they have left when someone enters the room." If it had been some kind of trap I triggered, I'd be OK with that. ("You hear the sound of collapsing wood as you open the door and see the hostages kicking over the remains of a splintered table.") Or if the BBEG used his action in the surprise round to drop them as a distraction.
I understand the need to create tension - and it worked - but it didn't play well from a story perspective. All the players were experienced enough to realize (meta) that if I'd taken four or five more rounds and thoroughly searched the side rooms, the time we had left would have been exactly the same. (We did succeed in the end as I pinned the BBEG and yelled for the eidolon to come cut them down while the rest of the party mopped up.)
Oh, and the elementals were by far the toughest part for us, it was good to see the big challenge early in the scenario for once. Certainly not what we were expecting, and made us go "what else are we in for?"
Developer
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honestly, that mid-tier group sounds like it barely made the APL, though you didn't list the druid's or alchemist's levels.
It's a rough fight, but there are rougher out there, and I'm all for rough fights.
I would rather have a brush with death than a cakewalk.
I ran this at gen con, and that encounter was also nearly the end of some, but they pulled it together and took the elemental down, and they felt powerful because of it. They were worried at first, but that seemed to make them more thrilled when they won.
It also taught some of the meleers that they need to invest in ranged weapons. A lesson more people should learn.
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Developer
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I have not read the scenario either, but when I played it the far more concerning part was...
** spoiler omitted **
Sounds like your GM might have ignored a little bit, which would have solved your immersion issues.
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I have ran this scenario 3 times thus far, and I can say with confidence…
That being said I agree with Alorha that it is better to have at least one challenging encounter in a scenario rather then having a series of cakewalks. And that’s what every other encounter in this scenario is in my experience. A cakewalk. Without that first encounter I would think this entire scenario would be kind of boring and unmemorable in my opinion. Which is a shame given it is supposed to help bring a conclusion to the Year of the Shadow Lodge arc.
And that is my biggest complaint towards this scenario. It is forgettable. Especially if you have a group of players who are not big on following the story arc for that year, or are just new players in general. For the two tables where I ran this at Gen Con I do not think I could really get my players to care about the mission. And given this is basically a dungeon crawl with little to no roleplaying, all that really leaves me with is combat encounters to make it entertaining and memorable for the players. At least with that first encounter the players will have an encounter they remember, and I think overall players were positive about the challenge (once they had beaten and killed it anyways).
I also agree that this scenario does warn players to have ranged capabilities. Dealing with flying enemies is a crucial ability by the time you get to the 7-11 tier. You are just in trouble if Thogdor the Barbarian can’t find a way to close with an enemy to whack it as you get up in levels.
I also agree with Alorha that the Big Bad of the scenario is supposed to wait for the PCs to open the door, smirk, maybe get off some banter, and then cinematically off the clock for the encounter. Probably the only other memorable encounter in the scenario.
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I quite like the scenario, though I tend to softball that encounter a bit.
Even with me being a big softie, mid-tier players find it a challenging encounter. Especially if they trigger the 2nd encounter
The 2 times I ran it at Origins, it was very close to becoming a TPK both times, without actually killing any characters. The only character I killed that con was due to a crit from the BBEG at the end.
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I need to revise my 1st reply here.
I ran this mod 4 Times at GenCon.
Twice at tier 6-7, once for the other tiers.
Oh my lord. I killed a lot of players and had many in tears during the Air Elemental fight.
The thing that killed them was lack of the ability to :
A. Get though the damage reduction.
B. Able to handle flying enemies.
C. Handle a lot of fall damage.
D. All the above.
As a publicly rolling GM it was a very brutal encounter that the players were in absolute terror for the rest of the module. This encounter also seems to eat 90-120 minutes of my session due to players trying to pull every trick in the book to survive. One of my tier 6-7 group actually started to drop bells from the bell tower on to the elementals after destroying the bell housing area.
Overall all four of my parties either used ALL their resources, spells, etc.. on this encounter leaving them with just brute force for the rest of the module.
It can be very hard on non prepared players especially at a table at a CON where the group of players don't play with each other much.
I still like this module as it is one of the harder ones and it is nice to have a good old fashion throw down with the party once in a while.
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I have not read the scenario either, but when I played it the far more concerning part was...
** spoiler omitted **Sounds like your GM might have ignored a little bit, which would have solved your immersion issues.
** spoiler omitted **
That explains it. It was described to us as
The elementals were tough but not impossible. We didn't have a blaster caster, so it turned into a positioning fight with a lot of readied actions. Probably one of the most "realistic" fights I've had in PFS when people were ducking and diving frantically all over the room.
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honestly, that mid-tier group sounds like it barely made the APL, though you didn't list the druid's or alchemist's levels.
It's a rough fight, but there are rougher out there, and I'm all for rough fights.
I would rather have a brush with death than a cakewalk.
I ran this at gen con, and that encounter was also nearly the end of some, but they pulled it together and took the elemental down, and they felt powerful because of it. They were worried at first, but that seemed to make them more thrilled when they won.
It also taught some of the meleers that they need to invest in ranged weapons. A lesson more people should learn.
Alchemist was either 3 or 4, druid was 4, but her big cat jumped off the balcony in round 1 and was knocked unconscious by the fall from 40 ft, not making its acrobatics roll to avoid the first 1d6 of falling damage.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be challenging. but in a party without fliers or casters , that hasn't hit the high tiers yet where they can spend some PA on items, the tactics described could be toned down. A single air elemental who picks people up once and drops them, then reverts to elemental form would be rough and likely knock one or two people out. 4 rounds of it off the bat is rough.
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I played in that session.
We barely survived or at least it felt that way.
I think we had a cleric, and alchemist, a rogue, a druid, a fighter and I played a paladin.
On top of everything else the dice at the table were cold.
It was a tough fight. Likely the toughest I have seen in PFS.
Thanks for the continued discussion, folks! It's very interesting to read how that encounter goes in different groups.
About the timing in the final encounter:
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Go threadbump, GO!
So, while looking at the map, I'm kinda confused. The group is supposed to go in through the belfry, but then where does that put them once they are inside the building?
I would assume the bells would be hanging directly over the altar, or whatever is in the middle of the red circle, but then how do they get down from the belfry? Use the rope and climb down to the floor in area 3? Do they come out on the wooden walkway?
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Go threadbump, GO!
So, while looking at the map, I'm kinda confused. The group is supposed to go in through the belfry, but then where does that put them once they are inside the building?
I would assume the bells would be hanging directly over the altar, or whatever is in the middle of the red circle, but then how do they get down from the belfry? Use the rope and climb down to the floor in area 3? Do they come out on the wooden walkway?
I asked the same question, here is the answer I got.