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I've been toying with the idea of a Sylph character which aims to take the Wings of Air feat at level 9...but I am drawing a blank on what class to make it. I play PFS, so only Paizo sources please.
I am leaning towards doing something more martial focused...flying above the combat and raining death almost feels like cheating...too easy...especially if you take the Cloud Gazer feat and just hide in a cloud, lobbing lightning bolts at things.
Something that isn't already feat starved...so I can grab the required Airy Step and Wings of Air feats at levels 7 and 9 without having to really give up a lot...Dex/Finesse would probably get best with the +2 Dex Sylphs get...
Is the Swashbuckler class any good? Investigator? Maybe Magus...mix a little casting into a martial build?
I suppose Rogue is always an option (though I play a ton of Rogue type characters already)
Anyone had any fun and effective martial Sylphs with Wings of Air?
Slayer isn't bad on feats, and there's an archetype or two which gets a little use out of Int. They'd be better at archery than a rogue. All of those sound possible though; do you have anything to make you lean one way or another? 'Ability to fly' isn't a character-defining ability in Pathfinder.
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I'd prefer melee over range...I was thinking maybe rapier for the weapon (whip had crossed my mind, but whips are pretty feat intensive...not sure there would be a viable way to do it and still have room for the 2 feats needed to fly).
Don't really want to get into two-weapon fighting (wealth is fairly limited in PFS, and paying to keep 2 weapons enchanted is expensive)
Light or no armor (required for Wings of Air)
The local scene is stocked with a fair number of min-max players...so preferably something that won't get left in the dust when playing with well optimized characters.
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I am also fine with the idea of multi-classing/dipping...as long as it works to the characters advantage.
My first attempt at building something to fit this didn't work out so well...trying to make a mix of Warpriest and Unchained Rogue which used a whip...sounded great in my head, but when I crunched the numbers...not so much.
What about an Avenger Vigilante? Lots of nice talents to pick from.
You get to be a masked avenger and fly -- you're a superhero!
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What about an Avenger Vigilante? Lots of nice talents to pick from.You get to be a masked avenger and fly -- you're a superhero!
I could always go Stalker instead of Avenger, focus on all the intimidation stuff, and become Batman ;)
There is a lovely synergy with Dazzling Display and Twisting Fear that allows you to intimidate all your opponents within 30 feet and do 6d4 damage (at level 11) to anyone you successfully intimidate, in addition to giving them the shaken condition, heh.
I dunno if it is what I am looking for though.
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What about an Avenger Vigilante? Lots of nice talents to pick from.You get to be a masked avenger and fly -- you're a superhero!
"it's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's Sup-"
"What's a plane?"But actually, Vigilantes are ridiculously good. Depending on what talents you take you can end up with more feats than an equally leveled base fighter. Your vigilante form can be named the Winged Marauder! or something equally cheesy.
Dex based isn't a bad way to go with that. Lethal Grace is very good. Start with 14 Str and 16+2 Dex at level 1, grab Power Attack at 1, Elven Branched Spear Proficiency at 3, and you're set. Scaling damage increase from two sources, a good reach and finessable weapon. Level 3 you're at roughly +7 to hit for 1d8+7, and it just keeps getting better from there. Not feat intensive at all.
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Lethal Grace seems strange to me...wouldn't you be better off just focusing on a single stat?
If you skip Lethal Grace and go for Fencing/Slashing Grace or an Agile weapon, you should end up with the same or higher bonus and make you less MAD (Figure a 24-26 Dex by level 12 will get you a +6 or +7 damage from dex...-vs- 14 Str for a +2, then +6 from 12 levels of Vigilante)
Am I just missing something?
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Looking at some of these Avenger Vigilante talents...wow...if I am reading them correctly, some of them look like they give you 2-3 feats for the cost of a single talent.
Whip of Vengeance (Ex): The vigilante gains Whip Mastery as a bonus feat. If he already has the Whip Mastery feat, he can immediately swap it for another feat he qualified for at the level when he chose Whip Mastery. In addition, if he is at least 6th level, he also gains the Improved Whip Mastery feat. He treats his vigilante level as his vigilante base attack bonus for the purpose of meeting prerequisites of feats and abilities that have Whip Mastery as a prerequisite.
Whip Mastery + Improved Whip Mastery for a single talent...
Signature Weapon (Ex): The vigilante must select one type of weapon (such as longsword or crossbow) when he gains this talent. He gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat for his selected weapon type. If he already has the Weapon Focus feat with the selected weapon, he can immediately swap it for another feat for which he qualified at the level he chose Weapon Focus in the selected weapon. At 8th level, he also gains Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat for his selected weapon. He doesn’t have to meet any of the prerequisites for these feats. Only an avenger vigilante can select this talent.
Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization for a single talent...
Strike the Unseen (Ex): The vigilante gains Blind-Fight as a bonus feat. He can also deal hidden strike damage against targets with total concealment. At 10th level, he gains Improved Blind-Fight as a bonus feat and can deal all types of precision damage against targets with concealment or total concealment. At 16th level, he gains Greater Blind-Fight as a bonus feat. The vigilante does not have to meet the prerequisites for either Improved Blind-Fight or Greater Blind-Fight to gain these feats with this talent.
Blind Fight, Improved Blind Fight, and Greater Blind Fight for 1 talent?
Am I crazy? Or is that just insanely good?
Lethal grace looks designed to work with two-weapon fighting. While it makes a finessed elven branched spear possible (& earlier than you could get an agile weapon) it doesn't make the spear exceptional.
You might consider using a whip for maneuvers only and some other weapon when you absolutely have to do damage. With 3+ levels as a magus you could get the wand wielder magus arcana & a wand of true strike; no feats actually required to be effective there with combat maneuvers. Probably magus 4 just to get 2nd level spells. Throw in a level of mysterious avenger swashbuckler for the whip proficiency and ability to parry perhaps. What else did you say you wanted in the character?
Buyer beware, flyby attack or not melee combat will provoke attacks of opportunity since you'll be flying in circles and if you're not flying in circles you're trying to hover which can be pretty hard to pull off so I recommend a reach build. That can be complicated since you probably want to be dex based too but The elven branch spear has got you covered. This reach build is pretty jank though since combat in 3 dimensions can be weird.
Swashbuckler can be good since you can parry people trying get you while you flutter about and rewards using dex for melee.
The Unchained Rogue can be good to nab that dex to damage.
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At 9th level, opponents should be prepared for flight in combat. My alchemist started handing his fighter teammate infusions of Fly at 7th level. The strix in my Iron Gods campaign made good use of flight to stay out of reach of opponents at low levels as she did a Death from Above charge with her lucerne hammer, but at high levels her opponents might take to the air themselves.
I play a bloodrager NPC with Air Elemental bloodline. After she gained flight while raging as a bloodline power at 8th level, I declared by GM fiat that she qualified for Airy Step at 9th level and Wings of Air at 11th level. I wanted the NPC to be able to accompany the strix on long flights. It did not make much difference in combat.
However, even at 9th level, flight is convenient for avoiding difficult terrain and for scouting. Hence, I recommend a class known for scouting, such as ranger. A slyph inquisitor can gain a bonus to Stealth as a favored class bonus.
Sylphs have two racial archetypes: Sky Druid for Druid class and Wind Listener for Wizard class. The Sky Druid looks built around flying. Alas, neither is martial.
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I'm running a Sylph kensai magus in PFS right now, and so far she's alright. I'm going for the Frostbite build with Weapon Finesse, Enforcer, and Rime Spell as my starter feats. She's 5th level right now, a decent chunk from GM credit, but she's been fairly successful in all of her missions. She uses an adamantine rapier that's going to get enchanted with Cruel and maybe Keen.
I'm looking forward to slapping a gift basket full of debuffs on each enemy that I go for, with longlasting 1st level spells allowing for more utility with my limited 2nd+ slots.
Between Wings of Air, it's prereq, and the bonus feat gained at 5th, this means I get pretty much one non-vital feat for most of my PFS career. It's likely going to be a useful-but-boring one like Spell Penetration.
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I've played a few martial characters who end up reliant on team mates or potions to deal with flying enemies, which is one of the reasons a Sylph with at will flight appeals to me for a martial character. Being able to simply fly up and deal with them without having to waste action economy drinking potions, or waiting for the party wizard to buff me with flight would be really nice. I don't really want/need it for being able to fly and harass people from out of their reach.
A whip focused Kensai Magus would be kind of cool...but not enough feats to work with the flying Sylph idea (unless I just completely forget about weapon damage and rely purely on touch spells through the whip)...I could always just go with a rapier/shocking grasp/crit fisher Magus build.
Are there even any whip builds that do viable damage? Everything I am finding seems to rely purely on maneuvers instead of damage...lots of tripping whip builds. Only way I can think of would be to go TWF and just try to get as many little attacks as possible...or a build which adds rider damage to your attacks (sneak attack or magus spellstrike)
I generally plan all my builds through to level 12, so I am fine with not having any non-vital feats...I don't GM though (no GM credit towards leveling up), so being able to be useful to the party from the ground up would be helpful. I can always use pre-gens for the first few games to get past level 1 if there is a good build that just sucks at level 1.
There are tons of good options for ranged/caster characters with at will flight...but the play style of flying above combat at raining down death doesn't really appeal to me...I actually wrote up a Tengu Storm Druid a few weeks ago that would play that way, which I will probably never end up using.
If I forgo the whip idea and just go with something like a rapier or some other less feat hungry weapon, what would be some solid builds in that regard? (still sticking with dex based Sylph with the 2 feats for flying reserved for levels 7 and 9)
Calistrian war priest with whip sounds fun to me.
Calistrian war priest with whip sounds fun to me.How would you build it? Do Warpriests get enough feats to be viable with a whip?
I haven't fully thought it through, but it looks like you'd have 8 feats at level 9. Here's a possible list:
Airy StepWings of Air
Whip Mastery
Improved Whip Mastery - gives you an extra five feet of reach
Weapon Finesse - you could get an agile weapon and dump strength
Toughness - to counter the sylphs Con penalty
plus two more - these could be Combat Expertise and Improved Trip or Improved Disarm if you were so inclined
This is pretty feat heavy, and it may not be totally optimal. I'm not a war priest expert. I've played one, an archer, up to 6th level, and that's it.
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Lethal grace looks designed to work with two-weapon fighting. While it makes a finessed elven branched spear possible (& earlier than you could get an agile weapon) it doesn't make the spear exceptional.
You might consider using a whip for maneuvers only and some other weapon when you absolutely have to do damage. With 3+ levels as a magus you could get the wand wielder magus arcana & a wand of true strike; no feats actually required to be effective there with combat maneuvers. Probably magus 4 just to get 2nd level spells. Throw in a level of mysterious avenger swashbuckler for the whip proficiency and ability to parry perhaps. What else did you say you wanted in the character?
While you typically get more mileage out of lethal grace when two weapon fighting, OP wanted a build that's not so feat intensive. TWF also comes with a penalty to hit and you don't get as much damage out of power attack, as, by RAW, even with double slice feat you still only get half the power attack bonus from your offhand. A two handed build gets fewer attacks, but you're more likely to hit on those attacks and you get a better power attack bonus.
Just running through the numbers really quick...
Lv3 vigilante w/ 14 str, lethal grace, power attack, proficiency in elven branches spear:
BAB 3, masterwork spear +1, Dex +4, power attack -1 = +7 to hit
Dmg: +3 str, +1 lethal grace, +3 power attack = 1d8+7
Now instead you go TWF, lethal grace, and power attack:
BAB 3, Dex +4, mwrk short swords +1, power attack -1, TWF -2 = +5/+5
Dmg: +2 / +1 str, +1 lethal grace, +2 / +1 power attack = 1d6+5 / 1d6+3
TWF averages 8.5 / 6.5 dmg (total of 15) while 2h averages 13.5, so TWF does more damage if both hit but average number of successful hits goes to the 2h build.
With lethal grace you typically don't need to invest in str, since lethal grace scales so nicely. You'd be able to stay at 14 str your whole career. Get Dex belts increase accuracy and AC, leave the str builds for the barbarians.
I do, however, like the wand magus battlefield control character. Grab a wand of true strike and spell combat that with a whip.
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Hmm...just noticed that the Ranger Combat Styles for the different gods are PFS legal...Calistria's combat style includes:
Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip), Weapon Finesse, and Whip Mastery.
At 6th level, he adds Improved Trip and Improved Whip Mastery to the list.
At 10th level, he adds Greater Trip and Greater Whip Mastery to the list.
This opens up the Ranger and Slayer to consideration for a whip oriented build, probably multi-classed with something that gives proficiency with a whip to start with.
Warpriest seems kind of intriguing...but I must be missing something about what makes them so good...they are a 3/4 BAB class, so I'll only get my first iterative attack at level 8, and won't get another attack in standard PFS play. The scaling weapon damage is ok, but not a make or break type of thing...it will equal out to about +3 damage per hit at level 12. Do they have some super amazing buff spell or something?
Maybe 4 levels of Warpriest of Calistria, grab crusaders flurry, switch to monk, focus on flurry of blows whip shots?
If I go with a Calistria worshiper, she is big on intrigue...so Rogue might be fitting (either as a dip or solo class)...do you qualify for flanking if you are at your 15' reach increment while positioned adjacent from an ally? Could make some sneak attack action a viable damage boost. Also potentially increases the viability of Slayer.
Gonna look at the Magus some more tonight...the Sylph's stat bonuses to Dex and Int are ideal for the class.
I like the reach build, either a reach cleric or fighter. Cloud gazer and reach means you can attack from cover without obscuring your enemies from your allies. Just place a fog cloud at 10 feet up.
Flyby attack and reach means you can stay out of melee range of grounded creatures. Only one attack per round, but you can deal with that.
If you get enlarged, your reach [and damage] can get bumped big time. I think warpriest can self enlarge as a blessing.
If you want to hover, and full attack, you need enough fly skill to automatically succeed. Should be easy at level 9. However, you want to account for penalties you may suffer: evil eye, cursed, intimidated, frightened, wind, and other stuff. You can take a feet to bump your flight class (say average to good). This is equivalent to a +4. Skill focus might be better, since the next level nets you +6 rather than +3.
/cevah
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Flyby Attack is a monster feat, and not available in PFS.
Right now, I am thinking take first level in Warpriest of Calistria (Free proficiency and Weapon Focus, and sacred weapon damage bumps the whip from 1d3 up to 1d6)
After that, go 11 levels of Avenger Vigilante...gets a ton of skills and Social Talents to turn him into a famous Calistrian Courtesan...also gets a ton of Vigilante Talents to feed the feat hungry whip. (Several of which bypass normal restrictions)
The combination is fun and flavorful as well...Lover by day, Vengeful Vigilante by night...
If HeroLab is right, I'd be doing a full attack chain at level 12 of
+18/+13/+8 1d6+23 each hit, or
+20/+15/+10 1d6+25 each with Divine Favor up, or:
+21/+21/+16/+11 1d6+25 each Hasted with Divine Favor.
Not amazing, but should be passable...probably have to focus on swinging a rapier for the first few levels until Whip Mastery and Slashing Grace kick in.
Monster feats are usable by PCs, but if not legal for PFS, then, no-go.
To get flight and full-attack, you need to hover*. Make sure your skill is high enough.
/cevah
*Doing a 5' step in flight might be OK.
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Ok...here is what I have planned out currently
Class: Warpriest 1 (Calistria)/ Avenger Vigilante 11
Race: Sylph
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral (Vigilante) / Chaotic Good (Social)
Faction: Liberty's Edge
Str: 11
Dex: 17
Con: 12
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 14
Alternate Racial Traits: Breeze-Kissed, Like the Wind
Traits: Fate's Favored, Whip Specialist
Favored Class: Vigilante +HP
Items:
+2 Prehensile, Adamantine Stinging Whip 13550gp
+3 Darkleaf Studded Leather 9775gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 8000gp
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4 16000gp
Boots of Speed 12000gp
Circlet of Persuasion 4500gp
Cloak of Resistance +3 9000gp
Headband of Mental Prowess +2 (Int/Cha – Fly skill) 10000gp
Ring of Protection +2 8000gp
Total GP = 90825
1. Warpriest 1: Aura, Blessings: Charm/Luck, Focus Weapon: Whip, Orisons, Sacred Weapon: Whip
Feat: Weapon Finesse
2. Vigilante 1: Dual Identity, Seamless Guise, Vigilante Specialization: Avenger
Social Talent: Social Grace: Diplomacy
3. Vigilante 2:
Vigilante Talent: Whip of Vengeance
Bonus Feat: Whip Mastery (Whip of Vengeance)
Feat: Slashing Grace: Whip
4. Vigilante 3: Unshakable
Social Talent: Companion to the Lonely
5. Vigilante 4: Startling Appearance
Vigilante Talent: Shield of Blades
Bonus Feat: Power Attack (Shield of Blades)
Feat: Combat Reflexes
6. Vigilante 5:
Social Talent: Renown: Absalom
7. Vigilante 6:
Vigilante Talent: Signature Weapon: Whip
Bonus Feat: Improved Whip Mastery (Whip of Vengeance)
Feat: Airy Step
8. Vigilante 7:
Social Talent: Celebrity Perks
9. Vigilante 8:
Vigilante Talent: Lethal Grace
Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse (Lethal Grace) - (Retrain level 1 finesse to Toughness)
Bonus Feat: Weapon Specialization: Whip (Signature Weapon)
Feat: Wings of Air
10. Vigilante 9:
Social Talent: Celebrity Discount
11. Vigilante 10:
Vigilante Talent: Shadow's Speed
Feat: Lunge
12. Vigilante 11: Frightening Appearance
Social Talent: Great Renown (Absalom)
At level 11 that will get me an attack sequence of +20/+20/+15/+10 for 1d6+25 (with Divine Favor + Boots of Speed active)(+3 to hit and -6 damage if not power attacking)
I'll have 55' of either ground or fly(good) movement (with a +26 Fly skill check)
AC will fluctuate depending on if I am lunging and/or power attacking...AC 31 when power attacking (-2 if lunging, -3 if not power attacking)
Psst....
Warpriest 1 (Calistria)/ Avenger Vigilante 11 is 12th level, not 11th.
I also get 65' movement on ground or fly when the boots are active. Not sure what is slowing you down.
/cevah
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Psst....
Warpriest 1 (Calistria)/ Avenger Vigilante 11 is 12th level, not 11th.I also get 65' movement on ground or fly when the boots are active. Not sure what is slowing you down.
/cevah
I know...but I won't actually get to play once he hits 12 probably, so the math is for level 11, which is the last level he will likely play at.
A 2nd level in warpriest will probably go farther than an 11th level of vigilante. Fervor vs a social talent.
I'll have to build it that way too and check the differences...it would drop off the last Social Talent...but it would also push back all the vigilante talents by a level, and move the last vigilante talent up to level 12, making it essentially not part of the playable part of the build.
Warpriest archer with Air Blessing. No distance penalties, and eventually a personal Wind Wall.
Take the Empty Quiver feat chain and you can use your bow in melee as a Sacred Weapon.
Eventually take Ace Trip for serious aerial supremacy.
^Wouldn't it be cheaper to just have a melee weapon and take Weapon Focus with it? Even if you felt you needed Quick Draw to be able to switch quickly.