Improved Initiative or Toughness


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Silver Crusade

Which is the better feat to get at level 1? You know assuming there isn't anything better on the table. If there is please tell me.


Initiative is great, if you NEED to go first. This highly depends on build and party composition. Sometimes the rogue charging in is better than the wizard blasting the area with entangle.

Toughness is useful at all levels, it is worth a total of 20hp by level 20. Decent if you feel the need for more buffer as a meat shield or a low rolling d6 class.

Dodge (Req DEX 13) is worth +1AC, which is also pretty good for a generic feat at level 1.


Keep in mind that Toughness is partially front-loaded -- although it is 1 extra hit point per level overall, you get the 1st 3 points at 1st level, which can provide a noticeable boost to your survivability.

Grand Lodge

The issue with questions like this is that there is no honest way to compare any two things like feats and conclusively say one is better than the other. You can make a build out of practically any feat/feat chain.
Are you a control wizard who needs to throw up a haste for the party or a black tentacles on the enemy? Improved Initiative is a no-brainer.

You're a daring swashbuckler who is usually able to parry blows from enemies before stabbing them with ridiculous lethality? Improved Initiative is probably a better pick for you than toughness.

Are you a barbarian with 12 AC that is constantly worrying about Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome? Toughness is probably going to be getting more mileage for you.

You're a Shield Other+Life Link oracle of Life? You straight up NEED toughness.

That all being said- why are Toughness and Improved Initiative your ONLY options for level 1? Fey Foundling pops in mind for a good 1st level feat, especially if you've got a channel healer in the party.

Silver Crusade

Syries wrote:

The issue with questions like this is that there is no honest way to compare any two things like feats and conclusively say one is better than the other. You can make a build out of practically any feat/feat chain.

Are you a control wizard who needs to throw up a haste for the party or a black tentacles on the enemy? Improved Initiative is a no-brainer.

Are you a barbarian with 12 AC that is constantly worrying about Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome? Toughness is probably going to be getting more mileage for you.

You're a Shield Other+Life Link oracle of Life? You straight up NEED toughness.

That all being said- why are Toughness and Improved Initiative your ONLY options for level 1? Fey Foundling pops in mind for a good 1st level feat, especially if you've got a channel healer in the party.

Well it IS with a warpriest in mind but a part of me worries that getting that fey foundling would be....cheap.

Grand Lodge

I have a PFS oracle of life who has it. Currently at lv 11 and channeling for 6d6. She gets 6d6+12 out of it and it that feat that has kept her alive numerous times. Sure it can sound a bit cheesy (Especially when you channel three times in a single round like my oracle does!) but at the end of the day it's just another feat that helps your character build. It like saying that a barbarian shouldn't pick up power attack because it's overkill at that point.

Silver Crusade

Syries wrote:
I have a PFS oracle of life who has it. Currently at lv 11 and channeling for 6d6. She gets 6d6+12 out of it and it that feat that has kept her alive numerous times. Sure it can sound a bit cheesy (Especially when you channel three times in a single round like my oracle does!) but at the end of the day it's just another feat that helps your character build. It like saying that a barbarian shouldn't pick up power attack because it's overkill at that point.

Ok well Here's the build path in question

1:???
Bonus Human Feat:Pummeling Style
3:Deific Obedience(irori)
5:Signature Skill(Heal)
Bonus Style Feat:Snake Style
Bonus Favored Feat:Channel Smite
7:Guided Hand
9:Combat Style Master
11:Quicken Blessing
Bonus Style Feat:Pummeling Style
Bonus Favored Feat:Touch of Serenity
13:Summon Good Monster

Pretty much comfortable with everything but the first
So would fey foundling be good for this build?

Grand Lodge

Fey foundling is always a good feat in my opinion. You expend fewer resources when healing and that can mean as little as simply less wands of cure light wounds bought or, if the game you're playing is pretty resource-tight, more mileage out of the healing resources you do have.

2nd level you get fervor, which i strongly believe should be solely for your own use and shouldn't be channeled or used to heal allies. Swift action self-buff and swift action self-healing. A++

Let's do a little math.
Let's assume 14 wis for the purposes of uses of fervor.
Lv2 you have 3 uses of fervor. Assuming you use all 3 uses for swift action healing, with fey foundling that's 3d6+6. 6 HP vs the 3 HP you would passively have from toughness. Even if you just use fervor once to heal yourself toughness is only ahead by 1 hp.

Lv6 you have roughly 5 uses of fervor and it's 2d6. Toughness gives you 6 hp passively, but a single use of self-healing fervor with fey foundling gives you 4 hp. a second use and you get an additional 4 and you're already outpacing toughness.

Lv11. Toughness gives you 11 hp passively, fey foundling gives you 8 hp per use of swift action fervor healing.

All of this is just within in the realm of combat, and assuming you have access to out of combat magical healing the benefits of fey foundling go even higher.

*Edit: I personally would go with toughness or fey foundling for this, because while everyone benefits from higher initiative, I believe the benefit of extra HP is more important for this type of character you're making.


Toughness. Or this Fey Founding if GM lets you, looks decent.

Why? Well I can't speak for anyone but myself; to me Init is easier to get than more HP. Dex is going to help, all sorts of other feats, spells, gear can help and Reactionary is still pretty good as a Trait buff.

And if you're a spell caster with one, there's a few Familiars that give +4


Fey foundling is obviously a great feat if you come up with an RP reason for having it and/or your GM doesn't give a shit about that kind of thing. Personally I don't allow it in my games unless there is a character reason for it but YMMV.

Otherwise toughness and improved initiative are both great and have different value based on your build, as stated above, and depending on what level you are playing at / until. Toughness is awesome at 1st level and loses value as you level up, whereas improved init will pretty much always be valuable, at least in my experience.

Just my 2 cp!


fey foundling>improved initiative>toughness


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Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Well it IS with a warpriest in mind but a part of me worries that getting that fey foundling would be....cheap.

If you're concerned that Fey Foundling is "cheap" write it into your backstory.

One campaign I played in featured two players with Fey Foundling. One made no effort to explain why his character had the feat, and to me it definitely felt "cheap", but the other player wrote a detailed backstory to explain it, which by chance fit the adventure path so well that the GM decided that the character's mysterious mother was the campaign's BBEG - which added depth to the final phases of the game.

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