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Exactly as it says on the tin, How would one go about building a LG Balor that has 20 paladin levels. This is for a unique outsider for a home-brew setting. I realize that it basically any build for this guy will be OP considering it would be CR 30ish, but i intend this guy to be able to hold his own against basically every published Demon Lord
-Has to be a Balor Demon
-Has to have 20 levels in paladin
-should be around CR 30 at the end
-No mythic ranks
-Assume Unlimited GP
-Would like a single artifact custom to this guy, but maybe that could be a different threadAnything else i should specify or is that enough to work with?
I'll post the build i have so far when i get home.
seconding the first poster.
this is all narrative stuff at this level. i mean... i guess you could do it, but what's the point?
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As a side note, depending how you calculate the CR, the CR of this build could be upwards of 40 just from the base monster and the class levels. Assigning class levels on a creature and calculating resulting CR afterwards is more art than science, especially in the extremes like this. Unlimited wealth would probably add a few CR (maybe +2 or so), an artifact might be another +1. You are really going into uncharted territory here.
I am really interested in how this topic goes forth, but don't know enough about higher level stuff to make the comments I am currently thinking.
Let me ask a couple things first.
A)Loremaster Howlin, what is the point of this character like actually hold his own or like slaughter the demon lords, a little background would be great, and are you talking hold their own with the demon lords in their own realm (where they have mythic abilities and such) or just out and about?
B)BlackOuroboros or someone else how much of an impact does Mythic stuff make on things? Like I am under the impression Mythic in concept is kind of a "mortal" then "Mythic" then "true Deity" tier system, but that is all I have. Any basic guidance someone can explain just a basic bit so I can make a better contribution to the OP would be great.
Right now at a glance of thinks a 20th level paladin on a Balor chassis would obliterate even Pazuzu without his mythic abilities (and possibly even with them)
It's rather easy to make this happen.
Step 1) Helm of Opposite Alignment (or similar effect)
Step 2) Ensuring the Balor failed his save (natural 1?)
Step 3) Apply the Paladin Creature template from Monster Codex (Str+4, Cha+4, Smite Evil 1/day, Lay on hands 1/day. detect evil, divine grace, aura of resolve. All abilities based on its current HD. CR+3)
Unless you want to actually give him Paladin levels, that would be the quickest, easiest, and most effective way to pull it off.
If anything, I'd suggest taking a Balor, advancing it to 30 HD, then giving it the class abilities of a 20th (or 30th*) level paladin, rather than bolting on 20 paladin hit dice. (Which is pretty much what Ragathiel and Vildeis do - they're outsiders and written up as such but have partial paladin abilities.)
Is this guy supposed to grant spells?
Edit: Also, keep in mind that the various demon lords as written aren't actually optimized. It'd be pretty easy to write up a CR 30 critter whose outright stronger than most of the existing CR 30s.
* Smite, caster level, and lay on hands would all be pretty easy to extrapolate above level 30. Smites/mercies/etc. would be slightly more work but perfectly doable.
It's rather easy to make this happen.
Step 1) Helm of Opposite Alignment (or similar effect)
Step 2) Ensuring the Balor failed his save (natural 1?)
Step 3) Apply the Paladin Creature template from Monster Codex (Str+4, Cha+4, Smite Evil 1/day, Lay on hands 1/day. detect evil, divine grace, aura of resolve. All abilities based on its current HD. CR+3)Unless you want to actually give him Paladin levels, that would be the quickest, easiest, and most effective way to pull it off.
That will leave his subtypes untouched, right? He'll still be an outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar) and therefore detect as evil and chaotic as well as good and lawful?
EDIT: And be vulnerable to outsider(evil)-bane weapons but not outsider(good)-bane weapons?
Apologies, I didn't mean background in actual lore (though the lore did help some), but more in concept/intent of character.
For instance with the previous thinking I had of you want it to be a force for good against the demon lords, this was never going to work because the paladin smite evil ability is just too strong against evil for you to have the character still feel like a paladin and meet the rest of your requests.
Putting the character against neutral enemies and expecting it to fight at equal type power as a demon lords is a little bit more feasible (still a lvl 20 paladin on a balor chassis is going to be strong, but with not optimizing too hard and doing some "unique character" [possibly such as the turning "good" part weakening the unclass leveled, base of the character because of how connected balor's power is to evil and the abyssal plane, or equipping it as a unique "herald" of Lord Gwain instead of just with all the strongest things] type ideas instead of building it completely like a PC this MIGHT be possible)
Is there anything else of importance, like specific fighting styles/personalities/out of combat capabilities that this character needs to be able to do or that would fit the of Acinder of Gwain concept to help target this characters creation?
I'm just here to point out that...
The Universe is beset by the servants of a primordial god of uncreation, he and his creations have no alignment, mind, or controllable motive other than mindless destruction of all things.
...except for the "no alignment, no mind" part, you just described Rovagug.
Even the "everyone who doesn't want the world to be destroyed fights him" part fits.
No GP limit?
....make sure he has Dangerously Curious, and two of every wand there is.
That will leave his subtypes untouched, right? He'll still be an outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar) and therefore detect as evil and chaotic as well as good and lawful?
EDIT: And be vulnerable to outsider(evil)-bane weapons but not outsider(good)-bane weapons?
Yes, to all counts. If someone casts detect good and/or law on him, he only pings because of his actual alignment and HD level, and will still ping as evil and chaotic because of his subtypes.
At these power levels, wands are more useful as tooth picks.No GP limit?
....make sure he has Dangerously Curious, and two of every wand there is.
There are probably still some buffs he could use, but yeah, "two of every kind" is pointless in combat since he should have something better to do with his actions.
The point is to have every 10min/level buff imaginable running 24/7, and having multiples keeps the UMD failures down to a negligible rate.
But rods, staves, whatever.
"Assume Unlimited GP"
Based on several extrapolations for CR, It's entirely possible this guy could fight full deities and win.hahahahahahahahahahahahaha no
Pretty sure that they meant the 'avatars' of full deities, since you can't actually fight a deity (they have no stats). Though, I would greatly enjoy seeing this Paladin Balor curb stomping Cthulhu (or attempting to)
Not according to Pathfinder it shouldn't. Yog Sothoth's Avatar/Herald is CR 30 on the nose and the rewrite of Achaekek's block to represent an avatar of him is also 30.then that avatar is a push over
o.0 Only if you are of similar level. Most mortals don't make it to those kinds of levels, and you need to be mythic to generally stand a chance against them. Just because you have homebrew games that get that high (if you do, I assume) doesn't make them pushovers. They are downright scary to normal folks.
A fascinating challenge, good Loremaster.
-Has to be a Balor Demon
-Has to have 20 levels in paladin
-should be around CR 30 at the end
-No mythic ranks
-Assume Unlimited GP
The challenge being, of course, that while there are guidelines to adding class levels to monsters in the back of the bestiaries, they include an important clause. The book tells us that after adding the class levels we should compare the statistics of our creature to the CR guidelines, to see if what we have created is under or over CRed. And then we must adjust accordingly.
So, while Paladin is not "key" for a Balor, a well built Balor paladin 20 will be far more powerful than a CR 30. Therein is the challenge.
The unlimited gold, I'm afraid, matters to us not at all. If we so wished, we could craft an item of at will time stop, or increase all of our ability scores by an arbitrary amount. But then we would be breaking the Loremasters third rule, that it should be CR 30.
To succeed at this challenge, one must deliberately gimp one's Balor paladin, something that does not come naturally to one such as myself. One would have to take nonoptimal choices, archetypes, perhaps, enough so to compensate for our forty full BAB hitdice, if we are to create a being that is merely a match for an Empyreal Lord.
Well, tweaking Ragathiel's statblock would take a lot less digging through books and a lot less adding of columns of numbers. I guess what it comes down to is whether you enjoy digging through books and adding numbers, or whether you do not, or whether you have the time or you do not.
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an avatar of appropriate power would be able to destroy a metropolis in a round or 2 and wreak entire armies in a matter of momentso.0 Only if you are of similar level. Most mortals don't make it to those kinds of levels, and you need to be mythic to generally stand a chance against them. Just because you have homebrew games that get that high (if you do, I assume) doesn't make them pushovers. They are downright scary to normal folks.Not according to Pathfinder it shouldn't. Yog Sothoth's Avatar/Herald is CR 30 on the nose and the rewrite of Achaekek's block to represent an avatar of him is also 30.then that avatar is a push over
Are you getting this idea from any source other than your ridiculously, absurdly, hopelessly OP home games?
An avatar of appropriate power would be able to destroy a metropolis in a round or 2 and wreak entire armies in a matter of moments.
Well, that isn't precisely a fair contest. A sixteenth level druid can destroy a metropolis in a round or so, if there isn't anyone with eighth level spells to oppose them . . . and probably if there is. They might be able to kill the druid afterwards, but the city wouldn't survive a single casting of Control Winds and two castings of Earthquake.
EDIT
And anyone who can cast wish or miracle, be they CR 16 (with npc gear) or cr 40, is really just a plot device. Statting them out is fun for fights, but if they aren't the de facto rulers of their world, my suspension of disbelief is already broken.
Well, that isn't precisely a fair contest. A sixteenth level druid can destroy a metropolis in a round or so, if there isn't anyone with eighth level spells to oppose them . . . and probably if there is. They might be able to kill the druid afterwards, but the city wouldn't survive a single casting of Control Winds and two castings of Earthquake.
An avatar of appropriate power would be able to destroy a metropolis in a round or 2 and wreak entire armies in a matter of moments.
You know earthquake only affects an 80'-radius area, right? That covers maybe half the area of a single city square block. A metropolis wouldn't even notice.
Control winds is 40'/level radius, so that could cover nine or ten square city blocks, but that's still a small portion of a metropolis. Does a good number on a village, though.
It's actually very difficult to zot a metropolis within RAW. And there's no reason a god's avatar should be able to do so. Many avatars are barely more than mortal.
I do in fact know the radius of those spells, and you are correct, that they wouldn't drop a metropolis. That was entirely my bad.
The city that a PC of mine destroyed some time ago was nowhere near the size of a metropolis. It was a fair sized city by medieval standards, but most campaign worlds use modern standards instead.
(Though, on the topic of Earthquakes, I didn't use them for their AOE, I used them to destroy the city's temple, a stone building that resisted Control Winds.)
EDIT
And just now, reading through the description of Control Winds, I realize that you cannot move the effect radius with concentration, all you can do is change the effect within the radius. That makes the spell somewhat less apocalyptic . . . though I could have just prepared it more times.
the marquee of death from marvel [...]
That's Marvel Comics. It has nothing to do with Pathfinder.
As far as I remember, the official stance is "Avatars and demigods go up to around CR 30, gods are and stay unstatted".
So, I actually agree with your reaction to "could fight a god" - Pathfinder gods don't even have CR, they either ignore you or they win.
But everything after? Nah.
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Take a Balor, Advance to HD 30, Give it the paladin monster template (which sounds kinda... i dunno, lazy?)
Well... yes? Or, rather less work intensive, streamlined, time efficient, etc, etc. My general rule of thumb is "never draw something twice if you have the copy function." Don't reinvent the wheel unless the one you have is not filling the purpose you need.
Sure, tweak it after you've got a prototype built until it fits what you need. Do you need mercies, random auras, divine champion, or channel energy on this Balor?
Haven't read everything, but u would check out the Pathfinder Unchained class graft for paladin, it seems designed for this.
A hundred thousand ioun stones will help.
A hundred thousand ioun stones will help.
Would they? Pretty sure most of their effects either don't stack, or only stack for a limited number (like the +attribute stones).
Or do you suggest taking so many ioun stones that you get cover from them?