Archeologist vs Sandman


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Silver Crusade

Between these 2 archtypes, which is the better "Rogue"?


Well, what kind of rogue? Stabby, tricky, sneaky, thieving, or some other kind? Just "rogue" is a little vague.

Also, what level(s) are you looking at?

Silver Crusade

shaventalz wrote:

Well, what kind of rogue? Stabby, tricky, sneaky, thieving, or some other kind? Just "rogue" is a little vague.

Also, what level(s) are you looking at?

Hmm ok, More on the thief side, less on the assassin side, outside of coup de graces


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Archeologist is the better rogue


For you, probably archaeologist. I think it's also a stronger archetype, but that's a slightly different concern.

Archaeologist is the lockpicking, skillful, stick-your-hand-in-the-hole rogue. It gets something slightly better than Trapfinding (a very rogue-like ability) but the magic trap thing doesn't come online until level 6. That's why I asked about the level you're looking at. It also gets better defensive abilities, keeps your Knowledge bonuses, and can take Rogue Talents (like Trap Spotter.) Archaeologist's Luck is quite versatile, but basically begs you to invest a feat in Lingering Performance.

Sandman, on the other hand, is a more social, pickpocketing, backstabbing rogue. It can try to disarm magic traps from level 1, but doesn't actually get Disable Device as a class skill and has no in-class skill bonus when doing so. On the other hand, it can lie and pickpocket much better. It doesn't care as much about Knowledge, but gets some debuff songs (sleep and fear, mostly.) It also gets very minor sneak attack, but it grows slowly enough to basically be ignored.

Basically, if you want to steal from treasure vaults, archaeologist. If you want to steal directly from people on the street, maybe sandman. If you want to do both, archaeologist's luck can make up the Sleight of Hand difference.

Silver Crusade

shaventalz wrote:

For you, probably archaeologist. I think it's also a stronger archetype, but that's a slightly different concern.

Archaeologist is the lockpicking, skillful, stick-your-hand-in-the-hole rogue. It gets something slightly better than Trapfinding (a very rogue-like ability) but the magic trap thing doesn't come online until level 6. That's why I asked about the level you're looking at. It also gets better defensive abilities, keeps your Knowledge bonuses, and can take Rogue Talents (like Trap Spotter.) Archaeologist's Luck is quite versatile, but basically begs you to invest a feat in Lingering Performance.

Sandman, on the other hand, is a more social, pickpocketing, backstabbing rogue. It can try to disarm magic traps from level 1, but doesn't actually get Disable Device as a class skill and has no in-class skill bonus when doing so. On the other hand, it can lie and pickpocket much better. It doesn't care as much about Knowledge, but gets some debuff songs (sleep and fear, mostly.) It also gets very minor sneak attack, but it grows slowly enough to basically be ignored.

Basically, if you want to steal from treasure vaults, archaeologist. If you want to steal directly from people on the street, maybe sandman. If you want to do both, archaeologist's luck can make up the Sleight of Hand difference.

Truth be told the lack of disable device is a rather moot point since you can get the Criminal trait without much issue.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/criminal/


Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:

Truth be told the lack of disable device is a rather moot point since you can get the Criminal trait without much issue.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/criminal/

True, there are plenty of ways to get it as a class skill, and one should be used if you want to use it. The lack of in-class boosts still hurts Sandman, though, and worse than the lack of Sleight of Hand boosts would if you're trying to do both. The DCs on Disable Device tend to start at 20 (or 25 vs. magic), so any boosts are welcome.


Archeologist is perhaps the best self-buffing archetype for the most powerful buffing class in the game. Be amazing at everything (skills, combat and saves) with a scaling luck bonus that stacks with all of your incredible Bard (buffing) spells. As if this is not enough you get Rogue Talents, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, Evasion and a scaling bonus to Perception and Disable Device.

Silver Crusade

Mage of the Wyrmkin wrote:

Archeologist is perhaps the best self-buffing archetype for the most powerful buffing class in the game. Be amazing at everything (skills, combat and saves) with a scaling luck bonus that stacks with all of your incredible Bard (buffing) spells. As if this is not enough you get Rogue Talents, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, Evasion and a scaling bonus to Perception and Disable Device.

It is a rather impressive archtype, the only real downside i see to it, is that it loses every aspect that makes a bard....well a bard.

But if you don't care about that, and don't plan on shanking people to death very often. It's really good and can take care of himself in most situations.


Archeologist should just be renamed Adventurer. Because that's basically what it is.

Silver Crusade

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:
Archeologist should just be renamed Adventurer. Because that's basically what it is.

True but at the same time it's not hard to RP either, Just think Lara Croft or Nathan Drake and you got a lot of material to work with.


shaventalz wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:

Truth be told the lack of disable device is a rather moot point since you can get the Criminal trait without much issue.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/criminal/

True, there are plenty of ways to get it as a class skill, and one should be used if you want to use it. The lack of in-class boosts still hurts Sandman, though, and worse than the lack of Sleight of Hand boosts would if you're trying to do both. The DCs on Disable Device tend to start at 20 (or 25 vs. magic), so any boosts are welcome.

Actually, it’s still pretty rough to not get disable device, in many games. Because you also need the fates favored trait. And if you are doing an AP, one of your traits will be a campaign trait. So you are rather trait starved.


Melkiador wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:

Truth be told the lack of disable device is a rather moot point since you can get the Criminal trait without much issue.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/criminal/

True, there are plenty of ways to get it as a class skill, and one should be used if you want to use it. The lack of in-class boosts still hurts Sandman, though, and worse than the lack of Sleight of Hand boosts would if you're trying to do both. The DCs on Disable Device tend to start at 20 (or 25 vs. magic), so any boosts are welcome.
Actually, it’s still pretty rough to not get disable device, in many games. Because you also need the fates favored trait. And if you are doing an AP, one of your traits will be a campaign trait. So you are rather trait starved.

That actually supports my point. If you're using DD, you need all the bonus you can get (especially if you can't get it as a class skill.) Since neither archetype alters the class skill list, the only in-class boost for DD is in the archaeologist.

As a side note, my archaeologist actually started with a level of URogue. Anti-magic-trap from level 1, free Weapon Finesse, Sneak Attack (or something else in my case), DD as a class skill, and a few other goodies. Note that archaeologist's Clever Explorer feature isn't actually Trapfinding, so it stacks. That's a little more on the "specialist" side of possible builds, though, and you do sacrifice some spellcasting for it.

Silver Crusade

shaventalz wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:

Truth be told the lack of disable device is a rather moot point since you can get the Criminal trait without much issue.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/criminal/

True, there are plenty of ways to get it as a class skill, and one should be used if you want to use it. The lack of in-class boosts still hurts Sandman, though, and worse than the lack of Sleight of Hand boosts would if you're trying to do both. The DCs on Disable Device tend to start at 20 (or 25 vs. magic), so any boosts are welcome.
Actually, it’s still pretty rough to not get disable device, in many games. Because you also need the fates favored trait. And if you are doing an AP, one of your traits will be a campaign trait. So you are rather trait starved.

That actually supports my point. If you're using DD, you need all the bonus you can get (especially if you can't get it as a class skill.) Since neither archetype alters the class skill list, the only in-class boost for DD is in the archaeologist.

As a side note, my archaeologist actually started with a level of URogue. Anti-magic-trap from level 1, free Weapon Finesse, Sneak Attack (or something else in my case), DD as a class skill, and a few other goodies. Note that archaeologist's Clever Explorer feature isn't actually Trapfinding, so it stacks. That's a little more on the "specialist" side of possible builds, though, and you do sacrifice some spellcasting for it.

I still rather go straight personally. Cause unlike 3.5 which flat out requires multiclassing after a certain point. Unless you're going for something uber specific all Multiclassing only hinders you if you have any sort of spellcasting ability. Multiclassing works great for purely martial characters but any spellcasters are better off staying in their class.

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