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So it's terrible. Got it.IMO it's an upgrade of shifter: hybrid form allows for weapon, shifter's claws and/or natural weapons, DR silver and imm lycanthropy plus all equipment usable. If you want to have a ton of attacks, it's not bad. It's still tied to shifter type wildshape though...
“Less terrible than the base Shifter” isn’t exactly a bragging point....
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Well if the designers would stop over-inflating the power of at-will stuff...
"Sorry, guys, I might have lycanthropy but it's only once a day" really doesn't sound like Lycanthropy. It sounds like a worse Beastmorph Alchemist or Mooncursed Bararian or Agatheil Vigilante....
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As it stands, it would be nice if the lycanthrope class were a better lycanthrope than the race... it’s sort of like if the Aasimar was a better holy warrior than the Paladin. At least Skinwalkers get an at-will hybrid form and the ability to become their animal whoever they want (via a feat, admittedly).
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“Less terrible than the base Shifter” isn’t exactly a bragging point....So it's terrible. Got it.IMO it's an upgrade of shifter: hybrid form allows for weapon, shifter's claws and/or natural weapons, DR silver and imm lycanthropy plus all equipment usable. If you want to have a ton of attacks, it's not bad. It's still tied to shifter type wildshape though...
Oh I agree. At least the DR/silver and immunity to lycanthropy doesn't look like it's limited to mins or hours/day. Some all day abilities is an improvement over the base class.
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I’m still sad that the Fiendflesh is evil-only. It feels like a good way to build an anti-antichrist character like Hellboy, only you’re not allowed to do that.
The Lycanthrope shifter does look nice. My one concern with it is that it may become boring at higher levels. The archetype takes away almost everything that the character gets past level 5 in exchange for that hybrid form and DR.
That archetype basically turns the shifter into "NPC Warrior with Lycanthropy, the class", which is actually a fun idea at its core. I just wish it was more like a Fighter or Ranger with Lycanthropy than a Warrior.
The Lycanthrope archetype sounded pretty good. I can't remember if anyone said it's shapechanging was at-will or not.
No it's on the same schedule as the base shifter.
Of the archetypes, I do think it's one of the better ones...as far as doing what it's supposed to.....but I think the Shifter in general needs a big boost to Wild Shape uses per day.....maybe not "at will"...but it should be able to shift at least four times a day out the gate.
As it stands, it would be nice if the lycanthrope class were a better lycanthrope than the race... it’s sort of like if the Aasimar was a better holy warrior than the Paladin. At least Skinwalkers get an at-will hybrid form and the ability to become their animal whoever they want (via a feat, admittedly).
That said.....I can't imagine doing this concept without a Skinwalker as the race....that actually fills in some of the gaps and makes it at least workable.
The Lycanthrope shifter does look nice. My one concern with it is that it may become boring at higher levels. The archetype takes away almost everything that the character gets past level 5 in exchange for that hybrid form and DR.
That archetype basically turns the shifter into "NPC Warrior with Lycanthropy, the class", which is actually a fun idea at its core. I just wish it was more like a Fighter or Ranger with Lycanthropy than a Warrior.
Heh - if you took the shifter - and swapped 'defensive instinct' for 'bonus feat' - add weapon training at level 9, and every 4 levels after - it would be a compelling class I think.
Oh I agree. At least the DR/silver and immunity to lycanthropy doesn't look like it's limited to mins or hours/day. Some all day abilities is an improvement over the base class.“Less terrible than the base Shifter” isn’t exactly a bragging point....So it's terrible. Got it.IMO it's an upgrade of shifter: hybrid form allows for weapon, shifter's claws and/or natural weapons, DR silver and imm lycanthropy plus all equipment usable. If you want to have a ton of attacks, it's not bad. It's still tied to shifter type wildshape though...
Well bugger me...I missed this, but your right....the DR seems to be separate from your wild shape form....that's a plus
Is information on the class still only accessible to those with the book/PDF?
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Yup. d20PFSRD gives a one week grace period before he starts updating with new book info to encourage people to buy the book, and I think Archives of Nethys has certain days of the month he updates. I don't know if they're going to put UW up on the official PRD or not.
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The class feature progression proves as a major obstacle in my desire to play it.
The class doesn't really "turn on" until 4th level. Until then, the shifter cannot actually do any meaningful shapeshifting aside from the claws and minor aspects, which have a criminally short duration. So you spend three levels as a shapeshifting class that can't shapeshift in any fashion that feels fun. Even something as simple as letting you change up your aspects would have been fun.
At 4th level, you get a huge power spike depending on whether or not you picked a good aspect. With a tiger, you can spend an hour as a Large critter with three natural attacks, grab on all of them, and pounce! However, you get the shaft if you picked a wolf or another aspect that doesn't have a lot of abilities.
After 4th level, the class takes a downward spiral as their wild shape progression is vastly inferior to the druid's and they start suffering from the same problems that the fighter and many martials suffer where they simply don't get any interesting class features that give them more meaningful tactics and narrative power.
Thus, the class feels awful at level 1-3. It feels amazing at level 4 and then gradually starts to feel worse and worse as you level up.
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Yup. d20PFSRD gives a one week grace period before he starts updating with new book info to encourage people to buy the book, and I think Archives of Nethys has certain days of the month he updates. I don't know if they're going to put UW up on the official PRD or not.
Official PRD is still waiting for Ultimate Equipment errata from two years ago, and they haven't posted any content after the Advanced Class Guide. The fact that not one, but two unrelated third party sites have more accurate information than an officially endorsed site that's meant to be current is one of the biggest glaring problems I've ever seen from Paizo.
Honestly, I think the PRD editor at Paizo lost their password and now can't ever edit the PRD again, so it's forever fixed to this current listing, and they're too embarrassed to admit it. It's the only logical explanation I can come up with besides "Aliens".
Yup. d20PFSRD gives a one week grace period before he starts updating with new book info to encourage people to buy the book, and I think Archives of Nethys has certain days of the month he updates. I don't know if they're going to put UW up on the official PRD or not.
thanks. :)
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The class feature progression proves as a major obstacle in my desire to play it.
The class doesn't really "turn on" until 4th level. Until then, the shifter cannot actually do any meaningful shapeshifting aside from the claws and minor aspects, which have a criminally short duration. So you spend three levels as a shapeshifting class that can't shapeshift in any fashion that feels fun. Even something as simple as letting you change up your aspects would have been fun.
At 4th level, you get a huge power spike depending on whether or not you picked a good aspect. With a tiger, you can spend an hour as a Large critter with three natural attacks, grab on all of them, and pounce! However, you get the shaft if you picked a wolf or another aspect that doesn't have a lot of abilities.
After 4th level, the class takes a downward spiral as their wild shape progression is vastly inferior to the druid's and they start suffering from the same problems that the fighter and many martials suffer where they simply don't get any interesting class features that give them more meaningful tactics and narrative power.
Thus, the class feels awful at level 1-3. It feels amazing at level 4 and then gradually starts to feel worse and worse as you level up.
I suspect that is in large part why the mass/gross disappointment. There is a sweet spot between 4th and 6th.....IF YOU PICK specific Aspects....but beyond that....it's lackluster. Combine that with the expectation that many had (and is at least somewhat supported by the hype)....and you have a perfect recipe for upset customers.
I understand they are not going to scrap the class and start over to match what was expected....but I do hope they are at least open to the idea of major errata to make it an acceptable version of the direction they went with it.
Until they become more open to dialog.....it's hard to say what direction it will go.
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So meaningless question that it may, it may be of use in the long run....
To be comfortable in the direction they chose to take the Shifter, what are your minimum fixes, and what would you need to see to make you willing to play a character of this class...what are the minimum changes you would need to see ?
for me......
Claw damage progression made comparable to a Monks unarmed Strike...or a Warpriests Sacred Weapon..
Aspect: stacking (Chimeric) at much earlier level, and for much greater duration.
Wild Shape Earlier, and MUCH greater number of times per day. Hell I can even handle waiting till fourth level, if it's enough times per day to make it worth while(and I can stack/Chimeric aspects for the first few levels). I think at least 4/day are needed right out the gate to make it through an adventuring day.....tied to an ability mod is fine (ie: Ability mod +1....scaling as existing class)
A shifter does not have an animal companion (= action economy), or Spells to fall back on (like a Drui) This and the claws are their main schtick. They need to make it through an adventuring day with something to contribute.
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This has taken an embarrasingly long time for me to realize, but why the lack of vermin options? It would be really cool to have a character whose armour seamlessly transitions to the exoskeleton of the shifted limbs,
My belief is that if something sounds like it's cool and will be great... it won't be.
This belief brought to you by Paizo Precedent Inc.
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Make the minor aspects abilities that you could turn on/off at will (rather than minutes/day), but when used would would shift your body so that it was obvious that you were calling on a bull’s strength or a falcon’s eyes. The aspects should also be usable when the shifter uses a wild shape form.
That would be a start.
I think all they'd need is at-will Wild Shape to make it appealing enough to play in a lower optimization style group... if you were starting above 1st level. I don't have the book yet, though, so I don't know the specific progression of abilities.
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Also note that the majority of us who were expressing disappointment in the Shifter on the product page, have been right here on this thread since, discussing it....
It wasn’t locked to prevent critique/statements of disappointment. Sara Marie directed us on where to go if we wanted to continue the discussions.
There were a lot of posts on the product discussion page clearly outside the forum guidelines - I flagged several on both sides of the debate (people were rude in their presentation of criticism and rude in their “defence” of Paizo). Remember that the more problematic posts are probably invisible to us now.
It appears to me that Chris Lambertz’s role at Paizo has been adjusted recently and that Sara Marie has taken on almost sole responsibility for managing the forums. This while also dealing with the chronic customer service workload issue that’s been ongoing for months. It’s unsurprising to me that something had to give.
Perhaps we’ll eventually learn to let people have differing opinions to us without feeling the need to question their motives, taste or intelligence.
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Keep in mind that the Paizo Staff load is not the problem....the fact that so many people on line can't behave like adults is the problem.
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Keep in mind that the Paizo Staff load is not the problem....the fact that so many people on line can't behave like adults is the problem.
Yeah, I fully agree.
But given that problem exists, a limited number of staff could easily lead to a need to lock the thread. Paizo don’t object to people posting critical reviews/comments about Paizo products on the forums, but there are standards of behaviour and if they’re consistently being breached at a time when they don’t have a lot of staff to devote to moderating the thread, it’s a problem they have to deal with some other way.
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The number of times I have had to backspace...
The preview feature has saved me embarrassment on many occasions. Sadly, not in every occasion.
I have had more than one occasion where I've made a post, had people reprimand me because they misunderstood it, I explain myself, more reprimanding, then both my posts are deleted while leaving everyone attacking me, making ME look like the ass. They MUST be overworked to make those mistakes.
Keep in mind that the Paizo Staff load is not the problem....the fact that so many people on line can't behave like adults is the problem.
Yeah, I fully agree.
But given that problem exists, a limited number of staff could easily lead to a need to lock the thread. Paizo don’t object to people posting critical reviews/comments about Paizo products on the forums, but there are standards of behaviour and if they’re consistently being breached at a time when they don’t have a lot of staff to devote to moderating the thread, it’s a problem they have to deal with some other way.
Hhhmmm...maybe that's the difference. I don't see a few ass hat's as a problem....that's just life happening. I pick and choose what I react to (OK...well widens depending on how many glasses of wine I have had). If someone makes a childish statement....they are probably the kind who are going to continue to do so....either make an equally brutal comment directly to them....or ignore them. Both are equally effective ;)
Hhhmmm...maybe that's the difference. I don't see a few ass hat's as a problem....that's just life happening. I pick and choose what I react to (OK...well widens depending on how many glasses of wine I have had). If someone makes a childish statement....they are probably the kind who are going to continue to do so....either make an equally brutal comment directly to them....or ignore them. Both are equally effective ;)Keep in mind that the Paizo Staff load is not the problem....the fact that so many people on line can't behave like adults is the problem.
Yeah, I fully agree.
But given that problem exists, a limited number of staff could easily lead to a need to lock the thread. Paizo don’t object to people posting critical reviews/comments about Paizo products on the forums, but there are standards of behaviour and if they’re consistently being breached at a time when they don’t have a lot of staff to devote to moderating the thread, it’s a problem they have to deal with some other way.
I think there’s a difference between interactions in real life and interactions here on the forums (Paizo have exercised their right to set a certain standard of behaviour).
“Making an equally brutal comment directly to them” is against the messageboard rules (and creates more work for the moderators).
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My main point was that the thread wasn’t locked to prevent critical comments (as some perceived it). It was due to the high rate of posting outside of what is an acceptable tone and it came (I think) at a time when staff resources for website moderating is stretched beyond the level Paizo are able to cover.
The discussion had also begun to deviate from product discussion to house rules/advice territory, which is why Sara directed us to those sub forums both when she asked posters in the product discussion thread to postpone discussing the shifter and also when she locked the thread.
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Keep in mind that the Paizo Staff load is not the problem....the fact that so many people on line can't behave like adults is the problem.
There are many websites where companies don't need to ban discussions in order to try to keep people in line.
During the most recent incident there wasn't even all that much noise outside a single troll.
So no, it definitely is Paizo, at least a little bit.
I would disagree.
I moved to Paizo back during the 4E fiasco....simply because they acted more honorably than Wizards did.
What we are seeing now, has more to do with the overall culture, and less to do with the company specifically.
People are becoming less and less tolerant of people having different views from them. They take it as a personal attack, and then do whatever they think is needed to address the attack. When in reality there was no attack in the first place....
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Alright, how about this?
There has been tons of debate over the Kineticist, from arguing underpowered, to overpowered, to being just where it needs to be even though it's no Wizard. Anyone else notice that NOBODY is arguing in the Shifter's favour? It's just different shades of HOW underpowered it is. We all (comparatively) agree on something for once. It's just too bad it's this.
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What we are seeing now, has more to do with the overall culture, and less to do with the company specifically.People are becoming less and less tolerant of people having different views from them. They take it as a personal attack, and then do whatever they think is needed to address the attack. When in reality there was no attack in the first place....
And then they defend themselves with "everyone is allowed their own opinion! Stop sharing your opinion because it's different from what mine is!"
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I don't want to sound cliché but what we have here is a failure to communicate... by Paizo.
Censure doesn't work. When you say, "Talk to the hand!" to someone, it doesn't generate a warm fuzzy feeling.
The best strategy here would be for those who wrote up the Shifter class to come out openly and address the questions one by one instead of hiding behind the PR buffer of customer service. I know it would be hard for a few days, but if you all remember the good old days of Paizo at the beginning, that's exactly what the Paizo founders did on an ongoing basis and it's the reason why they converted a huge flock of D&Ders to Pathfinder.
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So meaningless question that it may, it may be of use in the long run....
To be comfortable in the direction they chose to take the Shifter, what are your minimum fixes, and what would you need to see to make you willing to play a character of this class...what are the minimum changes you would need to see ?
for me......
Minimum, and I mean bare minimum, I could begrudgingly accept the Shifter if it allowed you to transform between your selected aspect forms during wild shape as a move or swift action without expending wild shape uses.
That would be unique and powerful, shoring up their current reputation as a shifter and granting them an incredible boost to utility.
I would also dearly like to see bonus feats, especially since there appear to be several manditory feats.
My pie in the sky hope is that they add a wisdom based pool that lets you cast alter self/beast shape/etc increasing as you level.
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I suspect that is in large part why the mass/gross disappointment. There is a sweet spot between 4th and 6th.....IF YOU PICK specific Aspects....but beyond that....it's lackluster. Combine that with the expectation that many had (and is at least somewhat supported by the hype)....and you have a perfect recipe for upset customers.
I can see many reasons why someone would feel disappointed with the shifter. Personally, I am disappointed because the shifter ended up exactly what I feared it would become. Shapeshifting has such a broad design and thematic space that there's a number of ways one can implement a shapeshifting class. The last thing I wanted was a class that's little more than a full BAB druid with no spellcasting, like the normal of 3pp classes that already exist. Unfortunately, the shifter ended up worse than that and suffers from the same problems that most martial classes where they lack interesting narrative abilities at high levels.
I suspect the designer didn't have enough time to fully flesh out and playtest the class. After all, this was probably designed around the period Starfinder was being designed.
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I don't disagree with this assertion, in fact I'd argue Paizo's reaction here might be in line with that same thinking.
People are becoming less and less tolerant of people having different views from them. They take it as a personal attack, and then do whatever they think is needed to address the attack. When in reality there was no attack in the first place....
Certainly....it has an impact in almost all aspects of current culture. It's a broken way of dealing with things all the same.
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Official PRD is still waiting for Ultimate Equipment errata from two years ago, and they haven't posted any content after the Advanced Class Guide.Wasn't Occult Adventures after ACG?
I thought Occult Adventures was before ACG. You're probably right, but I don't hardly use that book because I just can't get into Psionics in...well...any scenario, so I didn't think to include it as part of the items on the PRD.
Regardless, the point is that the PRD hasn't been updated (which it is in desparate need of), and is either unable to be edited because the people who edit the PRD lost their password and can't sign in to do the proper edits, or the PRD was taken over by Starfinder Aliens.
Occult Adventures was definitely after ACG.
Customer Service Manager
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I'm not sure if the context will help or not, but in a just few days the Ultimate Wilderness Product thread had generated nearly 4 times the number of flags than what I usually see for a contentious thread.
Reviewing it, everything flagged was focused around the shifter, with people arguing and talking about rules that most people (including some who were bickering in the thread) hadn't seen or even played yet. Posts (which have been removed) suggested people should be fired for it, called it garbage, and plenty of others jumped into fight with one another about the semantics of their posts. None of that is acceptable. After trying to bring the thread back on track, it became clear very quickly that it wasn't going to happen. I loathe the thought of locking a product thread, and I had hoped that if people took some time to reflect on what they wanted to say (in either direction regarding the class) that we could come back and have a more respectful discussion. I did not want to lock the thread as it there were still people who were posting about and wanting to reflect on other portions of the book so I attempted to leave it open for folks who wanted to discuss other parts of the book. Obviously that didn't work out; it's the first and last time I am trying that. I'll reopen it on Monday morning. Until then, have a great weekend.
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I've stated it before, if you're going to give a class Wild Shape, give it *freakin' Wild Shape* and don't dance around with a 'gutter' version of Wild Shape that isn't helping the equation any and may push people away from the class harder when they see a few do it much better than Shifter.
It'd save word count, cut down on complexity, and make a shape-shifting class a bit more accessible if that cut word count was instead used to put in a few 'sample' forms.
If for some reason the Aspects needed to be retained, have them be 'favored forms' that can use the Aspects, and any other form that uses the Aspect gives the Fatigued condition when the Aspect is no longer in use for twice as long as they were in use, until Chimeric levels are reached, to reflect the difficulty in trying to maintain two mindsets and not go completely bonkers.
I don't know what exactly the Shifter all does, or if people are just jumping the gun (because none of the "ZOMGOP" builds have come to light yet), but I am curious how close the class is to this Ranger Archetype I designed a while back...
I've stated it before, if you're going to give a class Wild Shape, give it *freakin' Wild Shape* and don't dance around with a 'gutter' version of Wild Shape that isn't helping the equation any and may push people away from the class harder when they see a few do it much better than Shifter.It'd save word count, cut down on complexity, and make a shape-shifting class a bit more accessible if that cut word count was instead used to put in a few 'sample' forms.
If for some reason the Aspects needed to be retained, have them be 'favored forms' that can use the Aspects, and any other form that uses the Aspect gives the Fatigued condition when the Aspect is no longer in use for twice as long as they were in use, until Chimeric levels are reached, to reflect the difficulty in trying to maintain two mindsets and not go completely bonkers.
I dunno, with how many classes there are I don't see a lot of parties with both a Shifter and Druid.