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I blame it on the over saturation of the solarian is bad threads that certain people made in mass to try and enforce their opinion that the solarian couldn't deal damage (HA!) without multi-classing into solider.
Edit: Plus I think the name of this one could of been less...whats the word? polarizing maybe?
I'd also be ok with an option for wisdom as a main stat I would say could be an archetype but I don't think that is the direction archtypes are going to go in. Just an extra class option I suppose would be all it took.
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I mean the problem comes in 3 things:
1. The class has too few Skill Points to work with to meet WHAT PAIZO SAYS are the base benchmarks for skills, because the class cannot really enhance Int due to having 3 required ability scores.
To quote the Dude, "Well, yeah, that's just like, your opinion, man".
It seems to me you feel that the Solarian should be able to max the ranks for all skills chosen to be a part of Sidereal Influence as a base class feature.
Let's just take a step back for a second...
In your Melee Solarian Guide, you mention, several pages in, that you have a design build philosophy around never ignoring a class feature. You said this in response to a question related to allowing the use of both Solar Weapon and Solar Armor on the same build. Your example build following goes out of its way to capitalize on having the Max Dex bonus for light armor while still maintaining a 24 Strength. You mention you did this to maximize the features.
You are too hung up on your own build philosophy to see that you are trying to impose your own personal preferences upon the game itself.
You bring up some sound choices for a homebrew game, but there is no point in you pushing your personal preferences on the entire community.
When the game was new to me, I absolutely toyed with some enhancements to the Solarian. However, the more I read into the game and skills themselves, I see less reason to do so right now. To each their own though. Every gaming table likes something a little different, and at the end of the day the Core Rule Books are guidelines for non-Society play.
Give your ideas a whirl in a homebrew and see how it goes. If it works for you then, awesome!
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Starship Combat: Sad Solarian. Lack of skill ranks to fill the Captains chair, with INT being a dump stat and required for Computers & Engineering, and lots of people picking up Piloting and having a better DEX stat (Pilot & Gunner), means the Solarian takes the spare wheel spot. There if needed but everyone else does the job better.
You can never have enough gunners.
Solarian, Skill Adept Pilot, Ace Pilot theme means that you are a decent Captain at 6th level via Aid Another Captain action and the Ace Pilot Lone Wolf ability. You should have the charisma and at least one social skill as well.
Still, this is an area that is generally problematic for the Mystic and Solarian. They are unlikely to be the best at their position and may only be able to fill one of the positions.
Around here I am currently seeing more characters who concentrate on the Engineering and Computers skill than Piloting. When they do have Piloting, it is frequently the Lashunta or Android Ace Pilot Operative. I expect this changes based on region and play style.
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My own play experience so far has been limited. I haven’t even made it to second level yet. Still, I am having fun and look forward to getting some of the Stellar Revelations.
In many ways I have gone against the grain with my Kasatha Ace Pilot Solarian. I took Stellar Armor and have him using small arms and operative weapons. I plan to have him focus on ranged combat. Still trying to decide between Flare and Gravity Boost as my first Stellar Revelation. Will most likely take Gravity Boost first, as it allows me to get places others will have trouble following.
I blame it on the over saturation of the solarian is bad threads that certain people made in mass to try and enforce their opinion that the solarian couldn't deal damage (HA!) without multi-classing into solider.
Edit: Plus I think the name of this one could of been less...whats the word? polarizing maybe?
It's funny because multiclassing into Soldier and dumping Cha is guaranteed to make a hot garbage Solarian.
That was the whole point of those threads. Some dude was trying to justify their poor build choice by saying they built it the best and it was still bad. In reality, their build was just really bad.
At least in this thread, the op ran into an intended trap with the class (lower saves) and is wondering "wtf Paizo"
Every other class only needs one non save stat and we get 4 increases per 5 levels. Solarian in the only oddball class that seems to demand optimization just to function like the class promises. Low floor High ceiling. There is really no point in doing that. If they were Wis/str focused, ditched the skill booster, gave both solar weapon and armor, the whole class becomes much easier to play and less able to shine in every area of the game.
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Being a Starship Captain: Requires 3 of the 4 skill ranks Solarians get per level.
I keep seeing this said as if it were an absolute truth.
Starship Captains should have Diplomacy *or* Intimidate. Ideally, you want both, but you can function with just 1. You'd be making a choice between granting a +4 to skill checks or rerolls to skill checks. If you have both of these, then you can pick what is most appropriate. Bluff comes up in the Taunt action which can be substituted with Intimidate. I didn't see Bluff mentioned in the other actions as the only option for completing the roll.
So for Captains, you can get by with 1 to 2 of your 4 skill points. You can absolutely play a decent face pushing just Diplomacy. Having all 3 skills just gives you more options, but investing in 1 to 2 isn't the end of the world.
Solarians can make good use of pushing Diplomacy and Intimidate. They can use Sidereal Influence with both of these, at the same time starting at 11th level, since they are Photon aligned.
Acrobatics and Athletics both have static DC's and therefore don't really need max ranks past a point where you can comfortably meet the numbers of the tasks you commonly accomplish. This leaves room to pursue Perception or something else if you like.
If you have an Envoy, then talk with that player on what they are doing. If they want to max out those social skills, cool. The Solarian can maybe be a backup face, or a scout, or a pilot, or something else.
I can't emphasize enough how important it is to talk with your other players when building your character. I guess there are some flaws with the class to some people, but a majority of the argument here is individual build decision.
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Yes, the solarian is MAD (or maybe you just want it all in one character).
More than other classes, there are many different ways to build this class - in many cases, it is THE most unique class in the game.
To hit isn't everything. The solarian has auto-damage powers where no other class does. That has saved our party more often than not.
So sick of hearing how this class sucks. Those that claim that I suspect don't know how to play one.
Any forced movement provokes AOs, and the solarian has many that powers that can cause it.
Consider stellar rush; I can move, then charge with no penalty, then explode for damage, then bull rush my opponent into potentially dangerous terrain, then hit him with my reaction if I beat the DC by 5 or more with my weapon (as can allies who threaten with melee weapons). If I've moved him back 10' away, he cannot full attack me with melee weapons on his turn. If that is not a potent turn, then one doesn't exist.
The solarian class is fine, some people just want it to be as good at soldiering as a soldier while being good at skills and having all the advantages revelations bring to the table.
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Yes, the solarian is MAD (or maybe you just want it all in one character).
The solarian is mad.
More than other classes, there are many different ways to build this class - in many cases, it is THE most unique class in the game.
So unique, that it seems like the developers were experimenting.
To hit isn't everything.
No, but for most, it's pretty close to being everything. If you can't hit, you can't deal meaningful damage. If you can't deal meaningful damage, you increase the length of the fight, which increases the number of resources the party is forced to use in order to prevail, as well as the odds that something terrible (like the death of a party member) occurs.
The solarian has auto-damage powers where no other class does. That has saved our party more often than not.
True, but how often can he use them? Does he have to wait three rounds? It's not just about auto damage, but about consistent damage high enough to keep up with the rest of the party.
So sick of hearing how this class sucks. Those that claim that I suspect don't know how to play one.
If all the other classes are pretty easy to play right out of the box, but the solarian isn't, and requires jumping through several hoops to make work as well, then how is it not strictly inferior to the other classes? If all else is the same, a bigger learning curve will most certainly make it less effective/less popular more often than not.
Any forced movement provokes AOs, and the solarian has many that powers that can cause it.
Can you provide a rules passage that supports this? I've not seen it mentioned before.
Consider stellar rush; I can move, then charge with no penalty, then explode for damage, then bull rush my opponent into potentially dangerous terrain, then hit him with my reaction if I beat the DC by 5 or more with my weapon (as can allies who threaten with melee weapons). If I've moved him back 10' away, he cannot full attack me with melee weapons on his turn. If that is not a potent turn, then one doesn't exist.
Assuming you didn't overlook anything, that is pretty cool, albeit somewhat circumstantial (there won't always be a terrain hazard). How intuitive is all of that though? How many players are going to be able to figure that out quickly and easily, as compared to another class which can be just as effective, but easier to learn/play?
The solarian class is fine, some people just want it to be as good at soldiering as a soldier while being good at skills and having all the advantages revelations bring to the table.
So...Jedi. People essentially want the Jedi; the Mary Sues of the galaxy, capable of doing anything and everything. :P
To quote the Dude, "Well, yeah, that's just like, your opinion, man".
Duh? I'm honestly not really sure what the point of your post is. That HWalsh is posting his own opinion on what he believes Solarians should have is kind of self evident. That's going to be the case for literally every post ever where someone suggests a change to a system or class.
So the Solarion problem is that they are a few points behind in saving throws. The root is because they need some charisma on top of combat stats and they have a class feature that suggests a passable Int by the endgame.
I feel like a couple themes that address charisma might be a better way to go than a solarion in-class patch. As has been mentioned, Envoy has the same problem with CHA dependency splitting scores, and assuming SF classes are introduced later in the game, we can assume later classes based on charisma will be in a similar spot.
I'd suggest a theme for charisma that grant bonuses at level 6 such as charisma to will saves or a +2 to one save. This would be unlike other themes because it directly effects combat, but it is attached to a score which has less impact. One for strength and fortitude saves would also work.
It wouldn't be too different from the PF skills that give a save bonus. The idea is to put the patch on the root of the problem instead of around where it shows up. Thoughts?
So the Solarion problem is that they are a few points behind in saving throws. The root is because they need some charisma on top of combat stats and they have a class feature that suggests a passable Int by the endgame.
I feel like a couple themes that address charisma might be a better way to go than a solarion in-class patch. As has been mentioned, Envoy has the same problem with CHA dependency splitting scores, and assuming SF classes are introduced later in the game, we can assume later classes based on charisma will be in a similar spot.
I'd suggest a theme for charisma that grant bonuses at level 6 such as charisma to will saves or a +2 to one save. This would be unlike other themes because it directly effects combat, but it is attached to a score which has less impact. One for strength and fortitude saves would also work.
It wouldn't be too different from the PF skills that give a save bonus. The idea is to put the patch on the root of the problem instead of around where it shows up. Thoughts?
I agree that patching the root of the problem (by boosting Charisma in some way) is the best way to handle this.
My main concern about this particular proposal is that it would seem to make the theme in question more or less mandatory for Charisma-focused characters (e.g., Solarians and Envoys). The game currently makes pretty much any race/class/theme-mixture viable. And all else being equal, it would be nice to have that still be the case.
I have to agree I don't think theme is the right way to go about this, though I do agree that the problems outlined are more core than class features (excepting maybe the Solarian's weirdly low skill points standing out to me).
I agree that patching the root of the problem (by boosting Charisma in some way) is the best way to handle this.
I'd also consider Strength nearly as much of an issue. It's got more inherent stuff tha Cha, but it also suffers from having dubious value outside specific circumstances and in general probably contributes to melee being kind of cruddy in this game.
The Solarian can certainly make it work, but that's because so much of the class is built around getting in someone's face and I think it's telling that even despite that ranged combat is still an attractive option while having comparatively little support (or on the flip side, albeit slightly off topic, look at how much a melee operative or mechanic or technomancer or envoy gives up compared to how little they gain).
Resolve: Average to Poor. CHA, while the "core" class skill, is not really required to be a effective Solarian.
This is the opposite of true. You NEED cha or you're just a bad soldier.
"Oh, I'll just not pick save revelations!" You can't. They are called zenith revelation and you have to have them.
Try build a technomancer or envoy and then ask whether Solarian saves are the worst.
Goblin Technomancer 10 11/22/14/23/14/08 with great fortitude- Fort 9 Ref 9 Will 9. Same as the Solarian.
Also a bit odd when just trying to compare saves to give the soldier extra Str and Int instead. Skews the numbers a bit in the Solarian's favor.
Starship Combat: Sad Solarian. Lack of skill ranks to fill the Captains chair, with INT being a dump stat and required for Computers & Engineering, and lots of people picking up Piloting and having a better DEX stat (Pilot & Gunner), means the Solarian takes the spare wheel spot. There if needed but everyone else does the job better.You can never have enough gunners.
Solarian, Skill Adept Pilot, Ace Pilot theme means that you are a decent Captain at 6th level via Aid Another Captain action and the Ace Pilot Lone Wolf ability. You should have the charisma and at least one social skill as well.
Still, this is an area that is generally problematic for the Mystic and Solarian. They are unlikely to be the best at their position and may only be able to fill one of the positions.
Being a Starship Captain: Requires 3 of the 4 skill ranks Solarians get per level. While doable, there's way too many good skills you want to put skill ranks in.
If your party has a Envoy in it, they make a heck of a lot better Captain with there numerous skill ranks and CHA modifier stat.
It requires two skills and a theme.
Ace Pilot theme at 6th level will allow you to use half your ranks in Pilot for those Engineering and Computer checks. You can use the Encourage crew action as a captain and only need to succeed at a static DC 10 to give a +2.
The other skill you will want would be a social skill. Intimidate would give you the most options as Captain. Here the skills use Charisma so you should have a reasonable chance at it.
Just being a Solarian means you do alright in the Gunner seat (using BAB), but it is good to have other options.
Note that I am not claiming they are the best at any Starship position. Just that they can automatically be a reasonable Gunner and with a reasonable investment can be an acceptable Captain.
I do agree that it takes an investment with the Solarian to be anything other than Gunner. They still do much better at filling a crew roll than a mystic.
Summary - Solarian
Combat/Melee: Potential Best in all classes
Combat/Range: Average to very good - Feat intensive.Saves: Starts out average and slowly falls behind as they level.
Health: Starts out average for a tank class. Then falls way behind as they level.
Skills: Starts out average for tank class and then most builds fall behind.
Starship Combat: Below Average. Other classes can feel the starship roles easier without giving something up.
Resolve: Average to Poor. CHA, while the "core" class skill, is not really required to be a effective Solarian.
I’m not sure why you say the Health falls behind. Is it because you assume they will not raise Con but everyone else will?
You fail to take into account the Stellar Revelations ability to change things up. Spider Climb at level 2, Blazing Orbit or Defy Gravity at level 6. With the Zenith you get Wormholes at 9th level — you and your whole party can now skip over some of the battlefield obstacles that the opponent may have placed.
You have a primary combatant able to pull tricks others can’t do.
The comparison wasn't intended to be a direct apples to apples comparison. That is simply the build I am planning to follow for the soldier I am playing.
However, it does point out that while you can assume other classes are going to optimize for saves, in practice, they are going to do what fancies their character (unless they only care to min-max).
Sure, I agree with you completely. But at the same time when we're specifically comparing saves, giving the soldier extra skill points and a higher to-hit instead sort of detracts from the point.
Has anyone toyed with a house rule of Cha replacing strength for a solar weapon or dex for solar armor? If so, how does it feel? OP, or not fixing enough of the perceived problems?
Just a thought.
Eh I don't like that one as much. I'd rather see wisdom as the resolve stat. keep str where it is. str is trying hard to become the new charisma as is.
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I'm glad you took a moment to rethink. This one sounds a lot better then the one you deleted. :)
Can you provide a rules passage that supports this? I've not seen it mentioned before.page 248 core rulebook
When you threaten a space and the opponent moves out
of that space in any way other than a guarded step (see
page 247) or withdraw action (see above), you can use your
reaction to make a melee attack against the opponent.
Thanks!
I'm not quite sure your interpretation hold, however. That passage clearly states "the opponent moves" indicating voluntary movement.
"Moves" and "being moved" are not necessarily the same thing. In any case, I've started a thread here to discuss the matter, rather than derailing this thread.
I also have been allowing my solarian to pull targets out pf cover with blcack hole if the enemies fail a ref save, and its been fine so far. I mean I figure you have to spend 3 rounds in your non-damage mode, so its okay if it does a little more.
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If you optimized your Soldier:01: 16/13/12/10/12/10
05: 18/15/14/12/12/10
10: 19/17/14/14/14/10<snip>
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I'm telling you, I'm not making a subjective or opinion claim here. I'm using the real math based on what every other class can do to:
1. Get the most out of its class skills.
2. Maximize resolve.
3. Maintain the highest potential attack bonus.
4. Get the highest HP.
5. Maintain the highest possible DC's for class abilities.I can do this easily with every class BUT the Solarian.
I’m not sure what you mean by getting the most out of class skills. I am guessing you mean keep up with the other classes, in which case Soldier has the same problem —no Insight bonus to help with any skills at higher level.
You gave an example of an optimized Soldier in the same post where you made these claims, yet that Soldier did not maximize Resolve. There is nothing in the system that prevents you from maximizing Resolve on a Solarian, it is just that most feel it isn’t worth the investment.
Only Soldier, Solarian, and to a limited extent Exo Cortex Mechanic maintains full BAB, so I really don’t know what to make of your claim about maintaining highest Attack potential. Technomancer certainly has a lower Attack bonus than a Solarian.
I really don’t know what to make of your statement of hit points. Only the Solarian and Soldier get 7 HP per level, and Con doesn’t add to HP so you evidently aren’t meaning that being MAD prevents them from pumping Con. Even a Ysoki Solarian is going to have more hit points than a Vesk Technomancer by 5th level.
Once again, there is nothing preventing you from investing in max Charisma so as to get the highest DCs on Class abilities. It is just people currently do not believe it worth the investment.
The Solarian has a mix of abilities that is different than the other classes. As I see if their strengths are:
Full BAB and highest base HP and Stamina (tied with Soldier)
Charisma based with social skills
Stellar Revelations and Zenith Revelations that allow them special tactical abilities — such as Spider Climb at 2nd level or teleporting the group via Wormhole at 9th level. Note they don’t need to expend spell slots to do this. A Technomancer gets Spider Climb at 4th level, Dimension Door at 10th.
I would suggest that the ‘right way’ to play a Solarian is to concentrate on their strengths, the things they can do that other classes really can’t. If you don’t see anything worthwhile in their abilities, perhaps you should play a different class.
Can you provide a rules passage that supports this? I've not seen it mentioned before.page 248 core rulebook
When you threaten a space and the opponent moves out
of that space in any way other than a guarded step (see
page 247) or withdraw action (see above), you can use your
reaction to make a melee attack against the opponent.Thanks!
I'm not quite sure your interpretation hold, however. That passage clearly states "the opponent moves" indicating voluntary movement.
"Moves" and "being moved" are not necessarily the same thing. In any case, I've started a thread here to discuss the matter, rather than derailing this thread.
This is the current discussion in rules threads over what that actually means, moves and being moved, are two different things, but only slightly and the wording itself is up to contention. Because it brings up 1 of two different scenarios, both lets use the Graviton Solarian for this.
If the enemy being moved provokes an AoO than the Graviton Solarian could grab an enemy with they abilities, drag it in front of each of their team mates and provoke attacks from them on every turn. Which sounds ridiculous but when you imagine it, not entirely. Just dragging a pinata in front of a line of kids with bats who each get a whack at it.
If being forced to move does not provoke, then the solution is a Graviton Solarian has abilities that are Free movement for your allies, so if the enemies get to close, you can freely reposition your allies at no penalty and in many cases, you moving them is advantageous as you are doing their movements for them so they can always Full Attack.
One allows the Graviton to on their turn cause a lot of pain to enemies that fail to resist their abilities, and considering how many people in this topic consider Graviton to be useless at worst and situational at best, to the point where they b##~~ that Photon isn't the #1 at everything so it needs to be buffed even more. The other allows Graviton to set up their allies for ludicrous damage and prevent the enemy from even using the feat Step Up/ and Strike as those would not trigger on this forced movement. Which considering there are not a ton of feats, enemies may have something like this to keep their opponents locked down and now the Mystic and Technomancer always have a way out without needing to use guarded step.
Please go back and look at the Soldier build I gave. You must not have read it. I did a breakdown of those classes side by side showing that the Solarian fell behind in *every single category* very clearly.
Please give me a link to which soldier build you intended me to look at.
I've read the whole thread, but there have been a number of builds posted to this thread. I'm not certain which one you meant. Evidently you didn't mean the one I quoted where someone else suggested a build and you stated your opinion on a more optimized array.
I really don't see the solarion having a bigger problem with saves than other classes. Other guys like Stan_the_Magic_Man, SwampTing and nicholas storm have already provided some math on that. It's generally quite in line with the other classes (albeit not at the top range, but not the worst either) especially with 2 good save progressions.
The only thing I'd agree on would be that the solarion's primary stat should be a choice between CHA or STR. If they change it to WIS, they should reduce the solarian's will save progression to slow. That said, I don't think it's drastic enough to make the class weak. It appears to hold its own just fine, and I'd totally play it as it is (I'm playing a mystic and a solarian at the moment).