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James - Unfortunately Paizo has more then just itself & the backers to contend with.
There is ND, who has a license which gives them certain rights and Paizo can not just simply walk in a revoke those rights and do whatever they want to fix this.
There is Archon, who most likely has a contract with ND and not Paizo, so Paizo can not simply walk in and toss them a bunch of money. They need to go through or work with ND.
There may be a distribution partner, who may have a contract with ND or Archon or both and not Paizo.
There is also precedent here. Paizo deals with a lot of 3rd party vendors and more and more they use Kickstarter.
How does Paizo step in to provide rewards without putting themselves in a position of becoming responsible for every single kickstarter for a Paizo brand product? Or do they just not allow anyone ever to use kickstarter because of the liability which cuts off some 3rd party providers from the ability to make there products a reality?
As much as everyone would love for this to be simple, quick, easy to fix, its not.
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How about Ninja Division ;)Stop deflecting. ND was a yes to those questions at the time. Paizo was wrong about it. Hopefully they can recover something out of it all.
Are they able to do sci-fantasy miniatures?
ND said yes, but everyone in the business including customers knew: No, not for a while.What is their turnaround time?
Several undelivered kickstarters pending, so maybe never. ND denied that, but everyone in the business including customers knew that.
What was their product schedule like and did they have openings?
Several undelivered kickstarters pending, so no opening at all. ND denied that, but everyone in the business including customers knew that.
The beginning of this thread is proof that everyone in the business except Paizo CEO was aware of ND's situation. Even I was aware of ND being untrustworthy and only backed ther kickstarter because of Paizo's guarantee.
TL;DR: ND was a no to those questions at the time, and everyone knew and warned.
Are they able to do sci-fantasy miniatures?
ND said yes, but everyone in the business including customers knew: No, not for a while.
The minis they have delivered disagrees with that.
As for everything else, it's what's been stated. Others turned them down or couldn't meet what they were needing, ND promised them they could. So it was ND or nothing.
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Are they able to do sci-fantasy miniatures?
ND said yes, but everyone in the business including customers knew: No, not for a while.The minis they have delivered disagrees with that.
As for everything else, it's what's been stated. Others turned them down or couldn't meet what they were needing, ND promised them they could. So it was ND or nothing.
Just because ND *said* yes doesn't mean they could. Nor does it mean that that simple answer was enough, given their performance history.
And to be clear, it wasn't "ND or nothing," but rather, "[ND delivers OR ND completely wets the bed and severely ticks off some chunk of customers] or nothing." At the time, that was apparent.
We will probably never really know but I wish we could learn what ND said/did/showed to Paizo made the Paizo brass feel comfortable. That may lead to further frustration--or it may lead to some sympathy. I think that's what many people are really upset about--that we can't square how Paizo would go with this company--and let this company use Paizo's reputation as a security net on this Kickstarter--given the company's history and all the warnings from customers. And closure may never occur.
And to be clear, it wasn't "ND or nothing,"
It was go with ND and hopefully get the minis or guaranteed get no minis at all, I wasn't implying otherwise so don't put implications in my mouth.
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And to be clear, it wasn't "ND or nothing,"It was go with ND and hopefully get the minis or guaranteed get no minis at all, I wasn't implying otherwise so don't put implications in my mouth.
You don't know that for sure. There has never been mention of other potential companies that produce minis except WizKids, Reaper and ND. So perhaps you shouldn't put implications in Paizo's mouth.
It'd be nice to know more on how this happened. Were those other companies approached? If so why did ND become the winning bid? As a grieved party, I kinda want to know what my loyalty to the company was worth.
Earlier in the thread someone from Paizo said that they had gone to their usual vendors first and they did not want to pick the line up. That is how we wound up in the current predicament.
For the cost of the loyalty?.... Everything.... I keed. But I get where you are coming from.
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And to be clear, it wasn't "ND or nothing,"It was go with ND and hopefully get the minis or guaranteed get no minis at all, I wasn't implying otherwise so don't put implications in my mouth.You don't know that for sure. There has never been mention of other potential companies that produce minis except WizKids, Reaper and ND. So perhaps you shouldn't put implications in Paizo's mouth.
Where are these other large mini companies with completely open schedules that can put out fleets of minis for an entirely new campaign setting?
WizKids and Reaper turned them down, ND said they could take them on.
You can go on claiming that the world has only 3 companies capable of doing scifi miniatures (and including ND in that list of "large" companies).
Everyone else knows this is so wrong that it is not even worth discussing.
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It'd be nice to know more on how this happened. Were those other companies approached? If so why did ND become the winning bid? As a grieved party, I kinda want to know what my loyalty to the company was worth.
Here is what the Paizo COO said about it earlier in the thread. I'll post the link as well as the quote.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2umu4?Miniatures-Kickstarter-Ninja-Division#34These same questions keep arising so let me shed a little light on it for you.
We try and be the best licensing partner that we can and part of that, for us, is making our intentions with new product lines known to our current licensees first. When we were ready to discuss the Starfinder brand with our partners, we approached both WizKids and Reaper about the brand and our desire for minis. Obviously we would want to offer a new brand's license to our existing licensees, especially ones that have done such a good job with our brand, but both turned us down. Reaper has their own lines for Sci Fantasy minis and WizKids did not have the sculpting bandwidth for the project. So we turned to Ninja DIvision and they were thrilled with the opportunity.
We've known the guys from Ninja Division for quite some time and have always been impressed with their commitment to quality so it seemed like a great fit. We are still blown away with the sculpts we've been seeing from them and think that this line of resin figures might be the best resins we've ever seen.
While it is not our place to comment on their past KS campaigns, except to say that any blame placed on them for the Robotech debacle is completely misplaced and misguided. They, like many of us in this industry, were merely contracted to design a game for someone else's KS and Ninja Division followed through with everything they were charged with. It was, and still is, up to those that ran the KS campaign to fulfill the product to the audience. One wouldn't blame one of our writers for Paizo not releasing a module, right? So why are they being blamed for that failed KS? It's just not right.
The rest of their Kickstartes and any issues associated with them are on them and while they have always had the best of intentions, it is obvious that the lack of communication has caused loads of problems. I commend them for being as open and honest as they were in their video update and I really hope that the audience gives them the chance to make good. They know...
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This sidetrack seems really unproductive unless someone from Paizo or Ninja Division wishes to join it.
Given how things turned out, Paizo would clearly not have licensed ND to produce the minis - Paizo didn't choose this company they chose a hypothetical "new leaf" licensee. Somehow Ninja Division persuaded them that this time would be different than previous kickstarters - who knows what information Paizo received that led them to be confident this kickstarter would deliver?
I'd certainly like to hear the reasons behind Paizo's confidence as their endorsement swung me from non-backer to backer however until we do (and who knows how much of those assurances ND provided to Paizo are confidential - maybe we'll never hear) it's difficult to resolve one's feelings. I don't think the outcome of a project is a fair metric by which to solely judge someone - there's always uncertainty in business.
It seems to me Paizo either didn't look hard enough into their history or that Ninja Division were like that guy who ran the Fyre festival. I would like to know where on that spectrum the truth lies, but no matter how many delays there are on this project, Paizo are bound by laws and agreements and business confidentiality is no doubt a factor limiting what they can say.
I’m sure there are options available to them - no doubt ND’s insistence that the project is fine, merely delayed is going to complicate things though.
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Also: ND is not the manufacturer, Archon is. ND seems to only have made the deal and the sculpts. And claiming that there are no sculptors in the world capable of doing SciFi miniatures after existing artwork is ridiculous.
Also: ND is not the manufacturer, Archon is. ND seems to only have made the deal and the sculpts. And claiming that there are no sculptors in the world capable of doing SciFi miniatures after existing artwork is ridiculous.
No one has claimed that.
You did, repeatedly, every time you said it was nd or nothingAlso: ND is not the manufacturer, Archon is. ND seems to only have made the deal and the sculpts. And claiming that there are no sculptors in the world capable of doing SciFi miniatures after existing artwork is ridiculous.No one has claimed that.
"ND or nothing" is not even remotely the same as "And claiming that there are no sculptors in the world capable of doing SciFi miniatures after existing artwork is ridiculous."
Where are these other large mini companies with completely open schedules that can put out fleets of minis for an entirely new campaign setting?
WizKids and Reaper turned them down, ND said they could take them on.
Looking at the UK and their glorious Brext project as well as at the U.S. and taxes on China, that makes a lot of sense.
Would actually consider that a good business move.
You did, repeatedly, every time you said it was nd or nothingAlso: ND is not the manufacturer, Archon is. ND seems to only have made the deal and the sculpts. And claiming that there are no sculptors in the world capable of doing SciFi miniatures after existing artwork is ridiculous.No one has claimed that."ND or nothing" is not even remotely the same as "And claiming that there are no sculptors in the world capable of doing SciFi miniatures after existing artwork is ridiculous."
Where are these other large mini companies with completely open schedules that can put out fleets of minis for an entirely new campaign setting?
WizKids and Reaper turned them down, ND said they could take them on.
It is exactly the same thing when all they did was sculpt them based on images provided to them and subcontract out all of the manufacturing
So saying they were the only people who could do it is saying that no one else could sculpt them
It is not, because that's not what I said.
I never claimed they were the only ones that could sculpt them.
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You can go on claiming that the world has only 3 companies capable of doing scifi miniatures (and including ND in that list of "large" companies).
Everyone else knows this is so wrong that it is not even worth discussing.
I will give you the same answer I've given before when this ahs come up.
Please list other companies that have the capability & willingness do do said project and provide a letter from them verifying they have the capability and would have said yes if approached.
Arguing that Paizo should have turned down ND's offer AT THE TIME WITHOUT KNOWING HOW BADLY IT WOULD TURN OUT, and gone to another, as of yet mythical company, because while people like you continue to spout off about how many there are, but no one has listed a single viable alternative is just nonsense.
If you want anyone to take you seriously you need to back up your claim as to the existence of these mythical companies that would have jumped at the chance to provide minis.
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AT THE TIME WITHOUT KNOWING HOW BADLY IT WOULD TURN OUT
This was not exactly an unforeseen occurrence.
This is not the first time they used kickstarter (which is supposed to fund a project) as a general investment in their overall company and failed to compete a project because of it. Not heeding the people raising red flags about the company and assuring the fans that everything would be fine is one of the larger points of contention here.
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You can go on claiming that the world has only 3 companies capable of doing scifi miniatures (and including ND in that list of "large" companies).
Everyone else knows this is so wrong that it is not even worth discussing.
I will give you the same answer I've given before when this ahs come up.
Please list other companies that have the capability & willingness do do said project and provide a letter from them verifying they have the capability and would have said yes if approached.
Arguing that Paizo should have turned down ND's offer AT THE TIME WITHOUT KNOWING HOW BADLY IT WOULD TURN OUT, and gone to another, as of yet mythical company, because while people like you continue to spout off about how many there are, but no one has listed a single viable alternative is just nonsense.
If you want anyone to take you seriously you need to back up your claim as to the existence of these mythical companies that would have jumped at the chance to provide minis.
While true, just because ND is the last one standing doesn't mean a business arrangement should have been made. Maybe Paizo did exhaust all their options. Maybe their other options were also riskier. Maybe the two big boys on the block legitimately weren't interested. Maybe they weren't given enough time. Maybe the financials of the licensing deal didn't make sense to them. I don't know. But I do know a game can occur without minis and virtually all do. I mean, minis never come out for a while with even Paizo's games. Plus, the cardboard pawns were out fairly quickly if folks really needed something for verisimilitude.
I take as false any overt or implied argument from any party that the minis were "essential" for the success of Starfinder--whether this argument is being used to justify going into a deal with ND or to explain, in hindsight, while a deal the deal was made. As a business you seek out any revenue streams you can get--especially if they are low cost revenue streams--but let's not act like this licensing deal was one of the major revenue streams.
Furthermore, I think this argument is often being used to distract from the real issue for many. Paizo assessed their risk/reward with licensing to ND, but ultimately, the entirety of the immediate financial risk was borne by Kickstarter backers--and that possibility had to be known at the time of entering into a business engagement with ND. So, what was it, that made Paizo comfortable? I don't suspect we'll ever know, but I sure hope--and suspect--the reason is more than "well, we aren't the ones who will bear the financial risk, so let's do it."
I take as false any overt or implied argument from any party that the minis were "essential" for the success of Starfinder
I don’t believe anyone has stated that.
Rather, having a new line of minis to go with the new art at the launch of their brand new campaign setting and game ready to go would ensure maximum impact.
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I will give you the same answer I've given before when this ahs come up.
Please list other companies that have the capability & willingness do do said project and provide a letter from them verifying they have the capability and would have said yes if approached.
Archon.
Next question?
If you want a list of companies that, like ND, just grab a million dollars and then do nothing, that list is looooong.
I will give you the same answer I've given before when this ahs come up.
Please list other companies that have the capability & willingness do do said project and provide a letter from them verifying they have the capability and would have said yes if approached.
Archon.
Next question?
If Archon could why didn’t they throw a bid originally I wonder? ND was needed as a middleman for some reason.
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Hey Ninja Division, Fyre festival called, they want to know how you didn't end up going to jail.
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I don’t know anything about the Pawns but the binding of the Core Rulebooks was deteriorated by the cold snap the factory making them was under, when this came to light Paizo went out of their way to replace all of the damaged books.
That and their communication on the subject of this KS and their continued attempts to work with either ND or Archon to get the backers their minis outright disproves that they don’t care about Starfinder or their customers.
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I love the Starfinder pawns!
I also ended up with three CRBs with defective glue and Paizo replaced every single one of them without complaint.
It sucks about the Kickstarter but I'll stand by Paizo's integrity.
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I love the Starfinder pawns!
I also ended up with three CRBs with defective glue and Paizo replaced every single one of them without complaint.
It sucks about the Kickstarter but I'll stand by Paizo's integrity.
I also had three defective copies from that initial print run and Paizo replaced all of them and covered the shipping (so I suspect they made no money on those sales).
I've never had a problem with the pawns, but I'm sure they'd make good on those too.
I'm disappointed in this kickstarter and the opinion Paizo expressed during the funding period regarding ND's ability to deliver. That doesn't negate the previous fifteen years of dedication to quality though.
Hopefully, now the PF2 products are winding up and getting close to being sent to the printer, Erik will have time to collect his thoughts and say what he can here.
AT THE TIME WITHOUT KNOWING HOW BADLY IT WOULD TURN OUTThis was not exactly an unforeseen occurrence.
This is not the first time they used kickstarter (which is supposed to fund a project) as a general investment in their overall company and failed to compete a project because of it. Not heeding the people raising red flags about the company and assuring the fans that everything would be fine is one of the larger points of contention here.
Exactly.
This thread started 27th September 2017.
Same day, someone posted a strong warning that he wouldn't back this because ND had already 2 unfulfilled kickstarters.
Next day Eric Mona said Paizo is aware of that but still has confidence.
All in this thread on page 1. Hard to miss.
Kickstarter ended 18th October 2017.
Looks like JSC has abandoned the KS, and somebody scrubbed some comments from the "Ninja Division Failed Out The Gate" forum thread
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From Wednesday February 27, 2019, at 4:57 p.m.
Erik has been wanting to post in this thread and he's been trying to formulate some thoughts. I have been hesitant to say this as I know that as soon as I say that, there will likely be expectations raised that may or may not be met and I try to be exceedingly conservative when it comes to things that might affect people's expectations. Particularly because I have not been sure if or when a post might come to fruition or what it will end up saying.
With the above in mind, I want to let you know that Erik has been working on putting some of his thoughts into words, and will post them soon. I'm not sure when he might be able to post anything. I know other execs are working with him to ensure what he says conveys the message he intends and I do not know how long that will take.
-Sara Marie
In a little less than three hours it will be two weeks since the excerpt of message above was posted.
More than two weeks is not soon.
Is Erik going to post or is this another vague promise we have to wait on?
I think you’re reading too much into the single word “soon” and not enough into the words:
“I'm not sure when he might be able to post anything. I know other execs are working with him to ensure what he says conveys the message he intends and I do not know how long that will take.”
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What does it matter if he does? We aren't getting our minis or our money back. Hearing a "sorry, my bad" at this late date won't change that.
Is Erik going to post or is this another vague promise we have to wait on?
Fwiw, it matters to me.
I don’t think I’m getting any more minis and I don’t think I’m getting my money back. I have an ongoing relationship with Paizo and my confidence in them has been dented - this project has already impacted on my support for Paizo-licensed kickstarters. Without sounding too accusatory of him, I’d like to hear why ND were given such backing from Paizo since from my perspective there wasn’t any grounds for confidence in them.
“Sorry, my bad” might be all he can say (and that would disappoint me), but I’m hoping to hear a more thorough explanation of what went wrong.
Customer Service & Community Manager
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He was trying to get it posted before GAMA Trade Show, but he didn't want to drop it in the thread and then immediately be out of the office/unavailable. As Steve noted, I know he's been working on it, but I don't know when it's going to be posted.
I got the auto-response from Archon but nothing more going on about a week.
I, too, only got an autoreply from them. At least for that. I sent a separate e-mail asking about some of their other minis (there were things from some of their other projects that I wanted to order minis for, but didn't want to get entire games). They told me that an announcement about that is going to come soon, and to subscribe to their newsletter. Nothing new on either front.
As GAMA ends this Friday, how long do you feel it is reasonable to wait for a post before I ask again?
When something is really important to Eric Mona, like when Paizo customer's got betrayed or Paizo`s good reputation is at stake, he invests 5 minutes every 2 years to make a post ... or every 3 years, we will see.
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I have an ongoing relationship with Paizo and my confidence in them has been dented - this project has already impacted on my support for Paizo-licensed kickstarters. Without sounding too accusatory of him, I’d like to hear why ND were given such backing from Paizo since from my perspective there wasn’t any grounds for confidence in them.
I’m hoping to hear a more thorough explanation of what went wrong.
I think this is the best description I've seen of how most of us feel and what we would like at a very minimum.
Well, at least Archon will be destroying the minis in a couple weeks, so Paizo should be able to quit being vague then.