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I know this is not the first time a related question arise, but this racial trait as interpreted by many just doesn't work.
For effects targeting creatures by type, androids count as both humanoids and constructs (whichever effect is worse).
I saw many people who interpreted the rule as "if a positive effect affects ONLY constructs or humanoids, then the android is immune to that effect" (since not being affected is the worse effect). This interpretation leads to weird conclusions (like androids being immune to both Make Whole and Cure spells.)
It seems silly the developers intended for the android to be immune to a whole bunch of positive effects (most of whom are technology-themed and should work on androids).
My interpretation of that racial trait would be :
"For effects targeting creatures by type, androids count as both humanoids and constructs. [u]If an effect works differently for those two types[/u], use whichever effect is worse."
Now, I'm not an expert on obscure rulings and spells. Would this interpretation of the trait cause any problems that you know of?
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I know this is not the first time a related question arise, but this racial trait as interpreted by many just doesn't work.
For effects targeting creatures by type, androids count as both humanoids and constructs (whichever effect is worse).I saw many people who interpreted the rule as "if a positive effect affects ONLY constructs or humanoids, then the android is immune to that effect" (since not being affected is the worse effect). This interpretation leads to weird conclusions (like androids being immune to both Make Whole and Cure spells.)
It seems silly the developers intended for the android to be immune to a whole bunch of positive effects (most of whom are technology-themed and should work on androids).
My interpretation of that racial trait would be :
"For effects targeting creatures by type, androids count as both humanoids and constructs. [u]If an effect works differently for those two types[/u], use whichever effect is worse."Now, I'm not an expert on obscure rulings and spells. Would this interpretation of the trait cause any problems that you know of?
Your proposal doesn't solve the problem, unfortunately. Mystic Cure for example works differently on humanoids than constructs. On humanoids it heals HP damage. On constructs it does nothing. It works differently, and "doing nothing" is clearly worse than being healed. Ergo it does nothing, both by the original wording and your altered version.
This certainly needs to be fixed, but I don't think your proposal does what you want. Honestly I'm not even sure what the developer's intent was for this.
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Mystic Cure works on Androids, you're both overlooking something.
For effects targeting creatures by type
Mystic Cure does not target by type.
Whether Mending works, however, is a very good question.
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Remember that androids are still humanoids.
This ability means they can be targeted by effects that harm constructs, but not effects that benefit constructs. It's obviously supposed to be a drawback.
It's not particularly well written.
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I agree with Rysky, as usual. Mystic Cure targets "One living creature", not a specific type of creature (target Humanoid, target Construct, etc). Therefore it functions just fine.
Mending, on the other hand, does not work - this is because it functions on "One object of up to 1 Bulk." According to Page 167, "As a general rule, an item that weighs around 5 to 10 pounds is 1 bulk". Therefore, unless your Android weighs between 5-10 pounds, they aren't a legal target for Mending.
Unfortunately whether Constructs count as Objects or not is something I don't have an answer to, since the Alien Archive isn't out yet :P
That's... actually a fair point, although it strikes me as a rather confusing way of writing an ability.
It's quite deliberate. Mystic cure heals living creatures. It does not work on dead creatures, undead creatures, or unliving creatures (can't delineate the living from the dead by type).
Whether Mending works, however, is a very good question.
I'm about 90% sure mending make whole would have no effect on an Android, since mending make whole affects creatures by type, and casting it on a humanoid would have a worse effect (i.e., no effect) than casting it on a construct (i.e., a positive effect).
Edit: swapped for a more appropriate example spell.
Here's a question in my mind about what happens, idk if it's answered in the text.
Possibility 1: you can cast Mending on a human or a construct. It will heal the construct. It will do nothing to the human. The android has to take no healing.
Possibility 2: you cannot casting Mending on a human. You can cast it on a construct, which it will heal. The only valid outcome is healing, which is what the android gets.
Possibility 3: we're wrong about how this works altogether, it's not intended to hinder healing effects, and both Mending and Cure should work on androids.
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I'm pretty sure that "invalid target" is the entire point of spells that target by type, though. Androids are vulnerable to effects and spells that target constructs, but don't benefit from spells or effects that are only apply to constructs. In exchange, they are immune to vacuum.
On my part, I suspect that "invalid target" was *not* considered an 'effect' when they were writing up this racial trait. The intent was to use the worse effect if a spell has different effects on both types, not the worst lack-of-effect.
I couldn't find a single spell that targets both humanoids and constructs and had different effects on the two types.
Well, you all got good points, but I still think it would have been far simpler, if it was the intent, to write « Androids are affected by effects who harm constructs, but cannot benefit from any effect that enhances constructs ».
This interpretation also make the androids the only core race with an explicit drawback in their racial traits (in fact, that would be the 2nd, since they already have -2 to Sense Motive, also the only race with that sort of penalty).
Considering that low-light/darkvision is more flavor than bonus, like the +2 DC vs opposing Sense Motive (a skill rarely used against PCs who are not likely to be the party face), are the others advantages (one free armor mod slot, +2 vs poison/disease/mind-affect and no need to breathe) so overwhelming that androids need to be the only race with a blatant vulnerability?
So, yeah, a FAQ sure looks necessary. ;)
I was also thinking of giving them a conditional -1 stealth (or -2) do to the lights in their skin.
MDC
And a -8 Dex penalty if they stay too long in the rain.
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The spell would need to specify it's targeting a creature type or that it affects a creature type before Android's Constructed comes into consideration:
For effects targeting creatures by type, androids count as both humanoids and constructs (whichever effect is worse).
Other spells allow you to target other categories of creatures or items, such as construct, corpse, or object
Mystic Cure doesn't target by creature type, but by if a creature is living or not. Mystic Cure also has the specific case of level 4 Mystic Cure affecting creatures that died, those creatures are no longer living but would be a specific exception stated by the spell. So Constructed trait doesn't come into play. But androids would still benefit from Mystic Cure because they count as living creatures.
Many spells affect “living creatures,” which means all creatures other than constructs and undead artificially created beings that are not undead or constructs are considered living for this purpose).
Reincarnate would work for androids also in this case for the same reasons.
Mending, specifies it can affect a construct. That's a creature type, so we can then consider Constructed trait. Androids then get counted as construct and humanoid, whichever effect is worst. In this case, humanoid is worse as humanoids don't benefit from Mending, then androids don't get affected by Mending.
Make Whole and Rapid Repair says it targets a construct. Same case with Mending, Androids get counted as construct and humanoid, where humanoid is worse (humanoids don't benefit from these spells) and so androids don't get affected by those spells.
A spell like Charm Person, Dominate Person, Daze, Hold Person all specify they target humanoids. Androids would then again get counted as construct and humanoid, in these cases humanoid is worse so then the androids gets affected by all those negative spells.
Deep Slumber targets living creatures, which androids qualify. It specifies construct types are immune to it, so we look at Constructed and we see androids counting as humanoid is worse and they're still affected by Deep Slumber, but at least they get +2 racial bonus to saving throws against it.
Entropic Grasp says it would work "against a manufactured creature (generally constructs, but not undead), this attack deals 6d12 damage. In this case, android's Constructed the construct type is worse, and they'd suffer the damage.
Raise Dead is iffy. It targets living creatures that died, which androids count. It also says constructs can't be raised by the spell (page 371), so being a construct is worse for androids in this case and they can't be raised. However, Owen K. Stephens states in the forums that androids are a special case and that they can be raised like any other living creature.
Really!!! This is not hard to understand. I don't know why people keep making the same statement over and over about no effect is worse. "this spell does nothing for Humanoid/Constructs so that the worse effect". No there is no worse effect unless it targets both Humanoids(living creatures) and Constructs (Object).
Ok, let's take Make Whole for example.
Targets one object of up to 1 bulk/level or one construct of any size
It says targets one construct of any size. So there is no additional effect to say this is worse because the effect is nothing on a humanoid. You can't even target a humanoid with this spell.
Take the idea of a rocket launcher as being the spell cast. Let's say this rocket launcher (spell) Auto locks to a heat source before firing. But your target is a snowman. guess what, you can't shoot it because there is no heat! Same thing when casing Raise dead on a wrench. You can't because the main component of the spell does not exist which is the target.
Androids can be targeted as both Humanoid or Construct. Only and only if an effect can target both will there be "worse" effect.
No there is no worse effect unless it targets both Humanoids(living creatures) and Constructs (Object).
Can you name a spell that affects humanoids and constructs differently? I couldn't find one. Kind of odd to have a trait that never comes into play.
Can you name a spell that affects humanoids and constructs differently? I couldn't find one. Kind of odd to have a trait that never comes into play.
You're correct, at this time I don't think there is any spell or effect that does target both but that doesn't mean that there never will be one. Your statement does not mean that is not Paizo intent. Until Paizo makes an official statement on this matter we will never know who is correct.
I think the main effect is spells that specifically effect constructs will affect androids.
But they wrote it generically to allow for many future possibilities.
Can you name a spell that affects humanoids and constructs differently? I couldn't find one. Kind of odd to have a trait that never comes into play.
In my mind, it would be stranger to have a trait that does nothing most of the time because "since androids count also as humanoid, the effect doesn't work".
If you assume Paizo's intent was that every effect that targets humanoids AND/OR constructs work, that's a racial trait that comes into play far more often and is more interesting as a doubled-edged sword.
Sure, there are some spells that gives bonus to constructs, and an android technomancer could, in theory, be built around this concept, but there are also numerous attacks and debuffs targeted specifically at constructs. In the course of a campaign, I'm pretty sure those would happen more often than the occasional buffs.
Anyway, I'm not a SFS player, and I'm pretty sure my DM will use the reasonable interpretation in our home game. :P
Can you name a spell that affects humanoids and constructs differently? I couldn't find one. Kind of odd to have a trait that never comes into play.In my mind, it would be stranger to have a trait that does nothing most of the time because "since androids count also as humanoid, the effect doesn't work".
Just because the effect does nothing, it doesn't mean that the trait is doing nothing.
I could maybe see the intent being that anything that applies to either would apply to an android. But, most of the buffs target constructs with the technological subtype. Those would not apply to an android.
Envoy's stuff targets Allies, not types. Expanded Attunement allows them to affect things that are immune to mind affecting effects, it doesn't target types.
Androids don't have the Construct type so they aren't automatically immune to mind-affecting effects.
Chief Technical Officer
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I have deleted "FAQ Request" from the title of the thread, as it's unneeded (and perhaps implies that this question is somehow deserving of special attention that other questions are not). If you think a question is FAQ-worthy, just click the FAQ button on it.