What is a Demodand?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Or, as a matter of fact, what's the deal with all of the different subtypes of evil outsiders? I'm in the process of porting a bunch of fiends to Starfinder, but I don't quite understand most of the subtypes.

- Demons like destroying things for fun
- Daemons seek universal annihilation
- Devils are classic schemer fiends
- Kytons are fiendish sadomasochists like that thing from Hellraiser
- Asuras are ???
- Qlippoths were there before Daemons but I don't know what they want
- Demodands are ???
- Divs are evil genie spirits
- Oni are fiendish trickster ogres

Any others that I'm missing?


Demodands are corrupted titanspawn that hate the gods
Asuras want to corrupt all that is holy
Qlippoths are the predecessors of Demons, and primarily want to be left alone. Unfortunately, the only way they can really achieve this is to annihilate all mortal souls to stop the influx of evil demons into their home


Well you could say the same about celestials:
Angels like helping people just because
Azatas are liberators who oppose tyranny
Archons are about duties and the good side of order
And so on.


Also missed Rakshasas, who basically want to rule the world as overlords
And Sahkils, fallen Psychopomps who feed on fear and souls


They serve the thanatotic titans as slavers, shock troops, generals of armies and they try to make other creatures convert to worshiping the titans instead of actual deities.

I would handle the thanatotic titans first, and then port the demodands over.


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Quote:
What is a Demodand?

Sucky and I hate them.

Oh! You mean more generally than that!

To be clear, I hate them 'cause they're bad, not because they're bad ideas. They're rather well executed, really. XD


Daemons have a type of death attached to them, which is a nice big bit of their flavor. So death by drowning is one I think. And they're lead by the horsemen of the Apocalypse. :) They're also not the ones that Quilppoths don't like. Thats Demons.

Silver Crusade

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Daemons have a type of death attached to them, which is a nice big bit of their flavor. So death by drowning is one I think. And they're lead by the horsemen of the Apocalypse. :) They're also not the ones that Quilppoths don't like. Thats Demons.

The Qlippoth don't like em cause the gave the Abyss the idea for Demons.


Demons represent sins, daemons ways of dying, do the rest have a similar concept?

Silver Crusade

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Potato disciple wrote:
Demons represent sins, daemons ways of dying, do the rest have a similar concept?

Demodands represent types of imprisonment or restrictions.


Potato disciple wrote:
Demons represent sins, daemons ways of dying, do the rest have a similar concept?

Nope. Aside from devils who are a bit more loosey goosey in their themeing beyond heirarchy and maybe temptations, most of the other evil outsider races generally just ride their central gimmick up the CR chain. Kytons get more leather body harnesses and barbed piercings, Sahkils toss in more nightmare imagery, etc etc.

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Kytons represent different ways of experiencing pain, and Sakhil represent different types of fears.


So what exactly differentiates Onis and Rakshasas?


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Demodands are also all made of random filth.

Sahkil are all different types of fears.

Each oni (aside from the mask one) represents a different humanoid.

Silver Crusade

Golurkcanfly wrote:
So what exactly differentiates Onis and Rakshasas?

Hmm, that's a good question.


Rysky wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Daemons have a type of death attached to them, which is a nice big bit of their flavor. So death by drowning is one I think. And they're lead by the horsemen of the Apocalypse. :) They're also not the ones that Quilppoths don't like. Thats Demons.
The Qlippoth don't like em cause the gave the Abyss the idea for Demons.

Well I mean, Qilppoths don't like anyone, they don't like mortals cause they feed the demons, they don't like Daemons cause they were the inspiration, but I thought the thing they held a special place in their heart for Demons.

Also whilst we're here we could do the Neutrals

off the top of my head

Aeons are about balance and I think they have a link to the Akashic records?
Psychopomps are Pharasma's agents and basically run the boneyard.
Inevitables I vaguely remember having a thing about not liking people going between dimensions and not liking permanent bridges between dimensions? is that a thing.
Don't really get Proteans, they're just like the oldest things in creation (aside from perhaps the Quilppoths, I don't think there is a definitive answer to which is older) and they like random acts of creation?

Silver Crusade

Oh yeah, Demons are at the top of Qlippoth's hit list.

Inevitables represent ensuring and guarding certain ways the universe works. Like one goes after creatures that have become immortal, another goes after creatures that opens too many portals, etc


Rysky wrote:
Kytons represent different ways of experiencing pain, and Sakhil represent different types of fears.

Honestly I don't buy that with kytons at all. Leather, barbed chains, piercings. It's constant in basically all of them from Augurs to Emerites. Interluctors aren't based off the pains of botched surgeries, they're just more enlightened Pinheads compared to the lower half of the CR chain with Emerites and Demagouges being supreme Pinheads.

Sahkil, looking closer actually do have a more specific themeing (I'll maintain that mechanically that's not always executed well if you compare their abilities to flavor text).

But Rakshasa, Demodands, Qlippoth, Divs, Oni, and Asura have no real have no real themeing beyond their central conceit.


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Golurkcanfly wrote:
So what exactly differentiates Onis and Rakshasas?

iirc, rakshasa are mortals who were so corrupt that they possessed a mortal child instead of going into the afterlife.

Oni on the otherhand are fallen kami who lost their bodies as punishment, but eventually they grow strong enough to try and create a humanoid body for themselves to inhabit.

So rakshasa are decadent mortals who are too messed up for the rest of existence, while Oni are aspects of nature itself that has lost it's grace and is forced to wear the primitive and crude flesh of a mortal and are trying to actually get some perverse enjoyment out of their angry existence.


Oni: more brutal, domineering forces of strife and sin; these are failed kami who are addicted to sins of the flesh; usually associated with giants and goblins, but also that one kitsune-associated one (nogitsune), and trogoldyte-associated one. Regardless, these are basically, "the Japanese style reincarnating evil spirits." Though they expect to be born into flesh again, they are not bound to a particular reincarnate cycle.

Rakshasa: more subtle (but no less controlling) manipulators and instigators of evil - manipulators, traitors, and tyrants; they are obsessed with their caste system. These are basically, "the India style reincarnating evil spirits." They follow the philosophical traits of reincarnation.

Rakshasa

Oni

That's what I got from a brief scan of those, anyway!

Silver Crusade

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Divs each represent a perspective curse and have certain compulsions I believe.

Asura each represent a deity's mistakes, or failed retributions.


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Golurkcanfly wrote:
Or, as a matter of fact, what's the deal with all of the different subtypes of evil outsiders?

To offer the players a great variety of foes to battle. And to catch them off-guard when they think they know everything already.

Evil outsiders make excellent enemies, like undead: They are flavorful*, can (in general) be battled without morale problems and can fill every role from minion over random encounter to campaign boss. And as a GM, you likely want good supply of creatures that make excellent enemies.

* I'd rather fight a demon lord than a big growing plant thing...


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For a an out-of-world historical answer, demodands are monsters from the Dying Earth novels by Jack Vance, which were hugely influential on the early development of D&D (and hence on later editions and variants like Pathfinder). In addition to demodands, we have Vance's novels to thank for ioun stones, and the core mechanics of prepared spellcasting closely imitate his descriptions of how casting a spell works.

I'm not sure whether Vance invented demodands or if he was drawing on some tradition. But either way, that's how they got into this game.

They're still not bad as fantasy novels go, though I had to keep reminding myself that they were written in the '50s, and therefore the blatant sexism matches their historical era.


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Golurkcanfly wrote:

Or, as a matter of fact, what's the deal with all of the different subtypes of evil outsiders? I'm in the process of porting a bunch of fiends to Starfinder, but I don't quite understand most of the subtypes.

- Demons like destroying things for fun
- Daemons seek universal annihilation
- Devils are classic schemer fiends
- Kytons are fiendish sadomasochists like that thing from Hellraiser
- Asuras are ???
- Qlippoths were there before Daemons but I don't know what they want
- Demodands are ???
- Divs are evil genie spirits
- Oni are fiendish trickster ogres

Any others that I'm missing?

Asuras- karma aimed AT the gods. The cosmic version of killing a guy, and then he comes back as a revenant to kill you. They originate from incidents when gods go all.... Greek god (ie- total jerks abusing power- the 'turning you into a spider because you are better at weaving than I am' kind). Since their entire existence is because of a god being a jerk, they obviously seek to do whatever it takes to hurt the gods back. luring mortals to atheism and the like is a part of that.

Demodands- the twisted toys of spoiled children that never grew up. They are the creations of evil titans- the children of gods that wanted to take over the universe and failed, so they were banished to the abyss. So they went "who needs your mortals. I'll make my own mortals. With black jack. And hookers." Personality of the demodands themselves? That...is harder to catch. Loyal servants to their lord (like devils)... but less disciplined and prone to 'playing with their food' I guess.

Oni- oni are intersting. Their originate from kami that break the rules. Kami are expected to protect the physical world and its greatness... but never really enjoy it. So imagine if you have to protect THE PERFECT ICE CREAM CONE- always perfectly temperatured, never causes brain freezes, always has the right amount of sprinkles, and it is always the best mix of every flavor you love. You are charged to protect this icecream over thousands of years. BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY OF THE PERFECT ICE CREAM. EVentually, you go crazy and think "I DESERVE THIS ICECREAM! NONE OF YOU JERKS DESERVE IT, ITS ALL MINE!". That is where oni are at- they have become disillusioned with their job, and decided they deserve the pleasrues of this world more than mortals. So they heavily devote themselves to enjoying pleasures (wine, women, food, etc.) and they feel that their might gives them the right to everything they can grab within the limits of their power. Power includes trickery too, of course- they are magical in nature, so they use that as a weapon too.

Qlippoth- "GET OFF MUH LAWN!"- they were in the abyss before demons, and then they were kicked out of the good spots due to the huge flood of demons. They would lvoe to wipe the demons out.... but new demons are born all the time due to CE mortals. So they seek to cut the problem off at the source. So death to all mortals. In the short term, they like anything taht kills a lot of mortals, particularly if it cuts off new life early on. So if they can make a bunch of mortals barren... then they are pleased too. But their favorite is killing off pregnant women.

Kytons- ....the hellraiser movie, basically. Extravagant and impossible levels of body modification and sadomasochism. As a note- the focus on making 'art' out os subjects makes them closer to....evil artist collectives than a real army. They tend to lean towards the cult level at best, as their desire to go off and do their own thing with their 'art' makes it hard to get large projects seen with devils.

Golurkcanfly wrote:
So what exactly differentiates Onis and Rakshasas?

Oni are spirits made by the gods, and they abandoned their job. The burned out office employee. They tend to POSSESS living mortals.

Rakshasas are hedonists that love living in this world so much, they prefer not to deal with this whole 'after life' business. They like to REINCARNATE into newborns. Reincarnation cycles instead of heavens or hells. They try to stay out of the politics of gods- they actively try to stay out of the outer planes. They tend to be the easiest to make deals with- they like this world- they don't want it destroyed or ruled by someone else. Give them self interest, and some luxuries, and they are easy to bribe. Think of them as animal head, LE nobles for most intents and purposes.


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Golurkcanfly wrote:

Or, as a matter of fact, what's the deal with all of the different subtypes of evil outsiders? I'm in the process of porting a bunch of fiends to Starfinder, but I don't quite understand most of the subtypes.

- Demons like destroying things for fun
- Daemons seek universal annihilation
- Devils are classic schemer fiends
- Kytons are fiendish sadomasochists like that thing from Hellraiser
- Asuras are ???
- Qlippoths were there before Daemons but I don't know what they want
- Demodands are ???
- Divs are evil genie spirits
- Oni are fiendish trickster ogres

Any others that I'm missing?

Sahkil are fallen psychopomps who, rather than conducting the cycle of life death and souls, relish inflicting fear and terror. Basically they're former workers who've decided that rather than doing a boring job helping 'lessers,' they're just going to mess with them for kicks. Mass death or annihilation isn't their goal like some others, but rather twisting individuals with despair and horror and drive them to death and eat their souls/make undead. It's not so much about a grand goal as the ultimate 'screw the system' to them.

---

Daemons specifically seek the annihilation of intelligent life- they hate life, especially mortal life, as their highest goal. They want everyone dead and the souls destroyed.

Qlippoth want the destruction of everything that isn't them (back in the day they warred with everything), with Demons high on the list due to trying to take over the Abyss. Demons are created by mortal sin, so eliminating mortals would be a path to this (though unlike daemons what happens to the souls isn't a big priority for them).

So there's two omnicide sides, but one is more focused on mortals-like-you, it's highly personal to Daemons that your life and soul is annihilated, while the other is more alien and coldly destructive who'll do horrible things to you and everything else in the ultimate goal of eliminating all the horrible-to-them non-Qlippoth existence.


Three omnicide sides. Divs all serve Ahriman- and he is for the destruction of all things.

I could say that he leans a bit towards teh asura side- he is supposedly the karma of creation itself. The shadow of destruction that follows it around.

So in general, they tend to be kind of like daemons. But they are far more motivated by general spite, rather than nihilism. They essentially like to be the bully that kicks sand into people's faces.

Daemons are closer to being like a crazy person that that had their lover stolen, so they now specialize in stealing in other people's lovers. Daemons, in essence, experience suffering themselves, and they wish to rid the world of suffering by getting rid of the world. 'nothing' is better than letting this sick joke continue.

Demons might also be considered slightly omnicidal.They don't necessarily want to end the world- they like to use the world as their toy. ...but they are too rough with their toys. So demons, if they were allowed to rampage unchecked and grow too much, might end up destroying everything. Not on purpose- but unchecked destruction is their nature.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Golurkcanfly wrote:
So what exactly differentiates Onis and Rakshasas?

Onis are about excess, their brand of evil comes from the depravity of excess. Onis are fuelled by id.

Rakshasa's are about control, being in charge, their extravagance is a symptom of their obsession with being the top cat. They are almost pure ego.


lemeres wrote:
Three omnicide sides. Divs all serve Ahriman- and he is for the destruction of all things.

True, though I don't think the average rank and file is necessarily as big into the universal scale. They seem a bit more personal than that.

Quote:


Demons might also be considered slightly omnicidal.They don't necessarily want to end the world- they like to use the world as their toy. ...but they are too rough with their toys. So demons, if they were allowed to rampage unchecked and grow too much, might end up destroying everything. Not on purpose- but unchecked destruction is their nature.

Yea, they want to kill in ways that make more demons and it's not like they'd ever stop, but omnicidal is not the goal per se, just suffering, sin, and destruction.


yeah, but omnicide seems like the end result if they 'win'.

Devils control, onis and rakshasa mostly just sit around enjoying themselves. But demons? If they spread without check and got access to everything, then at least one idiot will press the big red button just because it seemed funny.

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