Why the lack of Full Casters?

[The NPC]

I am curious from a meta and narrative level.

Meta - Would they gave broken the system? Imbalanced things between classes?

Narrative - Did the Gap change magic and remove full casters?

[Deadmanwalking]

I suspect it's purely meta. Starfinder is much better balanced, in part precisely because of the lack of 9-level casters.

[Ikiry0]

Metawise...well, they were damnwell too powerful in Pathfinder. Knocking it down to 6th level casters made a lot of sense for Starfinder.

Now let's hope that no one damn fool enough to bring them back.

[Zwordsman]

I kind of adore how the game is more "item based"
but..
i'm the guy who is always a fan of item based things.

I love chemists in FF and such for instance. I like magic items.

but yeah. its cause 9lv made it hard to balance the rest against

[Wrath]

A lot of the stuff Magic would accomplish is literally replaced with technology now. Who needs teleporting mages or planeshifting etc when you have gear and ships that can do that for you.

Plus the balance thing as already mentioned.

[The Drunken Dragon]

Balance,

And because from a meta level, that degree of specialization is seen as...archaic. There's some writing in-universe about the Arcanimirium being derisive of its few members that dedicate the entirety of their study to magic, labeling them "esotericists" and viewing them the way physicists view philosophers irl

[Ouachitonian]

They have full casters. Technomancers and Mystics both have a full 6 levels of spellcasting.

...what?

[d'Eon]

Ouachitonian wrote:

They have full casters. Technomancers and Mystics both have a full 6 levels of spellcasting.

...what?

They also have access to a few 9th level spells from their capstone abilities. I like the way it's set up.

[Balancer]

The Drunken Dragon wrote:

Balance,

And because from a meta level, that degree of specialization is seen as...archaic. There's some writing in-universe about the Arcanimirium being derisive of its few members that dedicate the entirety of their study to magic, labeling them "esotericists" and viewing them the way physicists view philosophers irl

I'm imagining a guy huddled up in his room with piles of books raving about how he'll show them all one day, they called him crazy but who'll be laughing when he's wished all his enemies into the sun! Who'll be laughing then! Just you see!

[The Drunken Dragon]

Balancer wrote:

The Drunken Dragon wrote:

Balance,

And because from a meta level, that degree of specialization is seen as...archaic. There's some writing in-universe about the Arcanimirium being derisive of its few members that dedicate the entirety of their study to magic, labeling them "esotericists" and viewing them the way physicists view philosophers irl

I'm imagining a guy huddled up in his room with piles of books raving about how he'll show them all one day, they called him crazy but who'll be laughing when he's wished all his enemies into the sun! Who'll be laughing then! Just you see!

I mean, when you can just learn how to build a rocket launcher or an ice gun, why bother just figuring out a spell that can do it...twice a day?

[The_Mad_Monarch]

I don't know if it was necessarily for balance purposes, but more for a different flavor.

Yes, Magic is definitely prominent, but it's no longer the pinnacle of what can be done. Thematically it makes a lot of sense that you don't have guys throwing around the high end magic.

[UnArcaneElection]

The Drunken Dragon wrote:

Balancer wrote:

The Drunken Dragon wrote:

Balance,

And because from a meta level, that degree of specialization is seen as...archaic. There's some writing in-universe about the Arcanimirium being derisive of its few members that dedicate the entirety of their study to magic, labeling them "esotericists" and viewing them the way physicists view philosophers irl

I'm imagining a guy huddled up in his room with piles of books raving about how he'll show them all one day, they called him crazy but who'll be laughing when he's wished all his enemies into the sun! Who'll be laughing then! Just you see!

I mean, when you can just learn how to build a rocket launcher or an ice gun, why bother just figuring out a spell that can do it...twice a day?

A rocket launcher is an awful lot of material, bulk, and expense. Magic can get it done compactly, and you don't have to depend upon supplies that might get cut, as long as you have your supply of whatever material components are required, whicb usually fit in a small space. Even if the rocket is cheap enough to use most of the time, it's still good to have the magic in case of an emergency.

[Malwing]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

The Drunken Dragon wrote:

Balancer wrote:

The Drunken Dragon wrote:

Balance,

And because from a meta level, that degree of specialization is seen as...archaic. There's some writing in-universe about the Arcanimirium being derisive of its few members that dedicate the entirety of their study to magic, labeling them "esotericists" and viewing them the way physicists view philosophers irl

I'm imagining a guy huddled up in his room with piles of books raving about how he'll show them all one day, they called him crazy but who'll be laughing when he's wished all his enemies into the sun! Who'll be laughing then! Just you see!

I mean, when you can just learn how to build a rocket launcher or an ice gun, why bother just figuring out a spell that can do it...twice a day?

A rocket launcher is an awful lot of material, bulk, and expense. Magic can get it done compactly, and you don't have to depend upon supplies that might get cut, as long as you have your supply of whatever material components are required, whicb usually fit in a small space. Even if the rocket is cheap enough to use most of the time, it's still good to have the magic in case of an emergency.

You still have to train for it and casting can't be Mass produced by a machine. Why go to wizard school to learn to do something that's a trip to Abadar-Mart away? That's like learning to start a fire without modern supplies now. Sure it's a neat trick but really there's a dozen devices to do such a thing and even then most of the time you're not even in a position to need to in the first place. Or how Voldemort wouldn't have gotten far if he attacked the American school, he would have gotten shot.

[Smite Makes Right]

It feels like they squeezed Pathfinder Society restrictions across 20 levels, but I suspect that the reason for it is more likely to be able to give the caster class more abilities per level other than more spells.

I am thinking of adapting the d20 modern / urban arcana rituals for the high level spell effects.

[Professor Wonderment]

There's long been a school of thought about 3rd Edition, 3.5, and Pathfinder, that classes should be ranked not by survivability or damage potential, but by versatility - and thus, 9th level caster are the king of the system. A high level fighter may be really really good at killing things, but he's not much good for anything else, whereas casters can pull all kinds of crazy reality-altering shenanigans, and are probably even better at killing.

So speaking as someone who loves casters for their creative problem solving potential, I'm good with this, and hopefully this leads to a more balanced system. My Technomancer doesn't need Time Stop or Gate to be a badass.

[VampByDay]

I mean, 9th level casters were basically considered gods in pathfinder. look at Treantmonk's guide to the wizard if thu don't believe me. At higher levels you could just kill a person with less than 150 HP remaining-no save. That kinda stuff isn't fun.

I have a friend who has a high level wizard who basically can't be challenged. That kind of character really takes the fun out of the game.

[Wrath]

Can I just say, it's not the class that is the issue with casters, it's the poor.y designed spells.

The very same power imbalance that people feel happen in Pathfinder, could just as easily happen in Starfinder with splat book explosion.

It only takes a few poorly written spells for the spell casting groups to start replacing every facet of other classes.

It's the danger with the modular system and constant pressure for content release as a business model.

[vashtheblackseed]

I remember reading that they designed the casters as "partial" casters so they could give them more class features. Virtually every full caster in Pathfinder has half their special class features slot empty. The Oracle is the only real exception with only 4 empty levels. The Wizard is on the other end with 15 of it's levels empty. Considering how they have decided to do achetypes, having more special class features is absolutely necessary. Also, I'm willing to bet they are hoping this will help prevent such a drastic difference in power between casters and melee near mid to end game.

[CorvusMask]

Isn't reason why level 7-9 spells are op because Gygax originally meant them as "awesome scroll loot" only and gave them to spellcasters anyway because every class had different exp track and high level spellcasters took a much longer time to get to those 7-9 spell levels so it was okay for them to be godly if they ever got there?(which was unlikely since high chance to die in early D&D) Then at 3rd edition D&D all classes had same exp track without removing or nerfing 7-9 spells and rest is history?

So removing them from available lists is just sort of making it as originally intended when you think about it.

[Melkiador]

I'm still wondering what's up with wish and miracle. The spells are in the spells list, but not on anyone's spell list.

[whew]

Melkiador wrote:

I'm still wondering what's up with wish and miracle. The spells are in the spells list, but not on anyone's spell list.

They're 20th level capstone powers.

[Xenocrat]

Melkiador wrote:

I'm still wondering what's up with wish and miracle. The spells are in the spells list, but not on anyone's spell list.

Read the level 20 capstone abilities of the Mystic and Technomancer. They get special access.

[GM Rednal]

I think the Technomancers have a way to cast Wish if they spend two Resolve Points and fuse two 6th-level slots? Pretty sure I remember seeing that in a blog post or something.

[Milo v3]

Melkiador wrote:

I'm still wondering what's up with wish and miracle. The spells are in the spells list, but not on anyone's spell list.

They can be accessed through the capstone abilities of Mystic and Technomancer.

[Patrick Newcarry]

Ikiry0 wrote:

Metawise...well, they were damnwell too powerful in Pathfinder. Knocking it down to 6th level casters made a lot of sense for Starfinder.

Now let's hope that no one damn fool enough to bring them back.

Check this thread.

[Tarik Blackhands]

Patrick Newcarry wrote:

Ikiry0 wrote:

Metawise...well, they were damnwell too powerful in Pathfinder. Knocking it down to 6th level casters made a lot of sense for Starfinder.

Now let's hope that no one damn fool enough to bring them back.

Check this thread.

Well I lost a bet there. I figured they'd get through at least 3 splats before drinking the full caster koolaid again.

But who knows! Maybe its just for enemies and NPCs, right? /s

Edit: Oh wait, 3rd party product. Sheesh, I shouldn't jump the gun like that. Makes me look silly.

[Tacticslion]

CorvusMask wrote:

Isn't reason why level 7-9 spells are op because Gygax originally meant them as "awesome scroll loot" only and gave them to spellcasters anyway because every class had different exp track and high level spellcasters took a much longer time to get to those 7-9 spell levels so it was okay for them to be godly if they ever got there?(which was unlikely since high chance to die in early D&D) Then at 3rd edition D&D all classes had same exp track without removing or nerfing 7-9 spells and rest is history?

So removing them from available lists is just sort of making it as originally intended when you think about it.

Kind of, sort of, but not really.

By the time a caster was able to wield the dreaded heights of third level spells, he could easily kill most creatures in the game with a fireball in ye olden edition.

And here I just did a bunch yammering on about 1E:

Consider that said fireball still dealt 1d6/level damage (so 5d6 damage, or 22,501-40,000 XP, at 5th level) which is going to oppose a fighter's... 5th level ([18k+1] to 35k XP).

But that seems pretty solid! 5d10+(5*Con-mod) would be pretty hard-core! ... but that's not how it worked.

At fifth level, yeah, a fighter gained 5d10, but only if he has a Con higher than 15 (which is +1; 16 is +2, 17 is +3 and 18 is +4; this only works with fighters, as clerics, magic users, and thieves only get up to +2)... a much harder proposition when you had to roll 4d6 and keep the best three (admittedly, it's better than the 2E roll 3d6 in order, but then again, you've also got to qualify to be a fighter in the first place). Anyway, it's quite possible a fighter could survive that, but... it's in no way guaranteed, and many -
in fact most - monsters or NPCs you'd face would be eliminated entirely (unless the GM didn't know how to give you normalized encounters or was out to get you).

Because I can't find my DMG, I had to look up stat generation - please let me know if that site is correct or not, as I honestly can't remember anymore.

Anyway, in the Player's Handbook:

Page 9 for Strength.
Page 12 for Constitution.
Pg 22 for fighter hit points.
Pg 24 for fighter XP.
Pg 25 for magic-user XP.
Pg 26 for magic-user spell charts.

That said, fighters hit 11th level at... one million experience (when they got "9 hit dice +6" - or 9d10 +6 hp - they don't get more HD after 9; see pp 19 for HD and 34 for HP).

So, once fighters hit 9th level (at 500k xp) they were decreasingly likely to survive (given that the XP for magic-users put them at 11th level - and 11 hit dice - with 5th level spells). That suggests that the equivalent of an 9th level soldier is a caster with 5th level spells. Obviously, that parallel doesn't quite work.

As an aside, generally, monsters needed to have 9 or more hit dice (exceptions apply) to survive. That's like: ~74 (including 4 demon lords, Asmodeus and 3 arch devils, Tiamat and Bahamut; also elementals some dragons - though not all - at some ages/powers) out of ~263 - between two thirds and three quarters of all creatures fall in a single spell. Mind, my numbers are vague enough and don't differentiate between creatures that have some of their HD range (so if something has, like, 5-9 HD, I counted it as a survivor). Also, it entirely ignores the "rarity" of the various creatures, and includes Unique creatures as equivalent to common ones.

Besides, clerics capped at 7th level (so, we're off by a level) and the actual classes capped at 9th. Beyond that, he notes, explicitly, that,

Quote:

<snip> ... certain things which seem "unrealistic" or simply unnecessary are integral to the system. Classes have restrictions in order to give a varied and unique approach to each class when they play, as well as to provide play balance. <snip about races> Everything in the ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS system has purpose; most of what is found herein is essential to the campaign, and those sections which are not - such as sub- classes of characters, psionics, and similar material - are clearly labeled as optional for inclusion.

<snip> ... cutting out material which actually adds little or nothing to the game, revising the old, and adding and expanding in the essential areas.

Mind, this is in AD&D, so not exactly 0E - but still firmly Gygax at the helm (at least he's credited in the book; while the Forward I'm reading says Mike Carr, the Preface is "signed" by Gygax - it's an printed/replicated signature, but still - and notes that this was authored by him, so...), and it seems that he had removed the things he considered non-essential for it.

Still that Preface wrote:

<snip> Authoring these works means that, in a way, I have set myself up as final arbiter of fantasy role playing in the minds of the majority of D&D adventurers. Well, so be it, I rationalized. Who better than the individual responsible for it all as creator of the ”Fantasy Supplement” in CHAINMAIL, the progenitor of D&D; and as the first proponent of fantasy gaming and a principal in TSR, <snip>

I'll admit that the Operative, at least, seems like its heading in a direction for being more like ye olden expectations (as the rogues gained levels the fastest, making them hypothetically more powerful, but they cap out at 10th level and 10 HD at 160k).

And none of that looks at the 1E stuff like Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes where the gods cap out at 300 hit points - or about ten 11th level fireballs.

(As an exceptionally bizarre note, given one of the stated goals was to make Monty Haul GMs look foolish, I'm not really sure what they were trying to do. I don't... that's a weird statement to make. Of course, that wasn't Gygax (although he signed off on the thing), it was Timothy J. Kask, so... make of that what you will.

Anyway, I don't think it really has anything to do with being more like the "original intention" of the game, given that any apparent parallels kind of break down really quickly.

It would be more like suggesting that we cap the game at 10th level instead of 20th. :)

EDIT: Man, was I ninja'd.

[Tacticslion]

Patrick Newcarry wrote:

Ikiry0 wrote:

Metawise...well, they were damnwell too powerful in Pathfinder. Knocking it down to 6th level casters made a lot of sense for Starfinder.

Now let's hope that no one damn fool enough to bring them back.

Check this thread.

Awesome!

[Claxon]

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Patrick Newcarry wrote:

Ikiry0 wrote:

Metawise...well, they were damnwell too powerful in Pathfinder. Knocking it down to 6th level casters made a lot of sense for Starfinder.

Now let's hope that no one damn fool enough to bring them back.

Check this thread.

Well I lost a bet there. I figured they'd get through at least 3 splats before drinking the full caster koolaid again.

But who knows! Maybe its just for enemies and NPCs, right? /s

Edit: Oh wait, 3rd party product. Sheesh, I shouldn't jump the gun like that. Makes me look silly.

Yeah, I was going to mention it was 3rd party only.

I don't think you have to worry about Paizo bringing 7-9th level spells into Starfinder. They've been taken out back and shot (I think), and I couldn't be happier for it.

[Tarik Blackhands]

Claxon wrote:

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Patrick Newcarry wrote:

Ikiry0 wrote:

Metawise...well, they were damnwell too powerful in Pathfinder. Knocking it down to 6th level casters made a lot of sense for Starfinder.

Now let's hope that no one damn fool enough to bring them back.

Check this thread.

Well I lost a bet there. I figured they'd get through at least 3 splats before drinking the full caster koolaid again.

But who knows! Maybe its just for enemies and NPCs, right? /s

Edit: Oh wait, 3rd party product. Sheesh, I shouldn't jump the gun like that. Makes me look silly.

Yeah, I was going to mention it was 3rd party only.

I don't think you have to worry about Paizo bringing 7-9th level spells into Starfinder. They've been taken out back and shot (I think), and I couldn't be happier for it.

I'm with you on being happy that 7+ casting got trashed, but I remain hesitant of it showing up later all the same. Paizo's done some pretty headscratching things in the past and who knows what'll come in the inevitable tide of splats.

[David knott 242]

There is a 3rd party product that already brought back spell levels 7-9. However, they did take care not to let those higher spell levels more powerful than the existing 6 spell level classes.

[Claxon]

David knott 242 wrote:

There is a 3rd party product that already brought back spell levels 7-9. However, they did take care not to let those higher spell levels more powerful than the existing 6 spell level classes.

You mean 3rd party?

A thing that a a lot of groups don't use (at least for Pathfinder)?

I'm fine with 3rd party doing whatever, it's not official rules.

[David knott 242]

And given that this 3rd party product was developed by one of the creators of Starfinder, it seems likely that Paizo has no immediate plans to do anything with 9 spell level classes.

[jimthegray]

hmm how is this book, tempted to get it.

anyone had a chance to read through it yet?

ehh screw it i just bought it.

[Ikiry0]

I'd recommend against it. A lot of stuff is just 1:1 translations of pathfinder stuff but you are paying for it. The areas where it isn't just a direct translation are not exactly better either.

Which is a serious issue when the two games use different design philosophies in areas. The Tiefling race for example is busted beyond belief with it's elemental resistances (Making you borderline immune to anyone using an energy weapon for a good few levels) or the cleric getting bumped up to full BAB to go along with it's 9th level casting.

[GM Rednal]

In fairness, the Cleric thing was an error and I'm pretty sure they're changing that for a fixed release of the book. Probably should've been caught the first time, yeah, but...

[ENHenry]

Note that the Technomancer and Mystic also get abilities besides just spell levels; not having 9 spell levels also gives them things they can swap out for archetypes and such at levels where they arent getting new spell levels.

[Smite Makes Right]

ENHenry wrote:

Note that the Technomancer and Mystic also get abilities besides just spell levels; not having 9 spell levels also gives them things they can swap out for archetypes and such at levels where they arent getting new spell levels.

Theoretically true, except that when they take archetype abilities, they are often swapping out spell slots.

[Sir Jolt]

I don't want another game with martial-caster disparity.

[David knott 242]

GM Rednal wrote:

In fairness, the Cleric thing was an error and I'm pretty sure they're changing that for a fixed release of the book. Probably should've been caught the first time, yeah, but...

It has already been fixed, in fact.

[Indi523]

VampByDay wrote:

I mean, 9th level casters were basically considered gods in pathfinder. look at Treantmonk's guide to the wizard if thu don't believe me. At higher levels you could just kill a person with less than 150 HP remaining-no save. That kinda stuff isn't fun.

I have a friend who has a high level wizard who basically can't be challenged. That kind of character really takes the fun out of the game.

I ran several games of Dragonstar and I can tell you the guys complaining about being underpowered were the Mage classes especially if they liked slinging damaging spells. They felt their spells were too weak when a laser pistol did 3d6 damage.

I had to explain to them that utility spells were the key to a powerful caster in the futuristic setting. Sure magic missile was one d4+1 dart, it always hit but so what and fireball at 5th level was the equal of a grenade launcher.

I explained, you can fire laser rifles too and your BAB may be less but if you really need to hit something you have a 1st level divination spell that gives you +20 next round and hey that works if you are in the sip's turret too.

Starfinder gives mystics a 1d10 mindthrust. So it is a litte of either.

[AM BARBARIAN]

WHY AM LACK OF FULL CASTYS?

BECAUSE BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER, AND AM BEING LIKE 6000 YEARS.

STATISTICALLY SPEAKING, BARBARIAN BOUND TO RUN OUT OF CASTYS EVENTUALLY.

[Ikiry0]

Indi523 wrote:

I ran several games of Dragonstar and I can tell you the guys complaining about being underpowered were the Mage classes especially if they liked slinging damaging spells. They felt their spells were too weak when a laser pistol did 3d6 damage.

Mind you 'Direct damage' has always been the worst thing for a mage to do, which has always made me a bit sad. I like throwing fireballs.

[Micheal Smith]

I like the idea of less spell casting in Starfinder. To me magic should be a rare thing and every one should be throwing lasers or bullets at each other. I don't mind casters but I also don't want them to break the game like they have in Pathfinder, especially at high levels. Interesting we didn't get a prepared caster. Wonder if there is one in the works.

[doctor_wu]

Actually speaking of verstatility meaning power a ysoki technomancer can do every role other than captain and not the best at gunner.

[Vidmaster7]

There you have it folks AM Killed them all.

[wraithstrike]

I never had a problem with them in my games, but I do think they derailed a few campaigns, mostly like homebrew.

GM(before the session): Sets up 5 combats over the 150 mile trek to <insert place>>

Player 1: Let's buy horses

Player 2: I can just cast teleport.

All the other players: Sounds good to us.

GM: <sad face>

edit: Before anyone gets too focused on my teleport example, it is just an example and the first thing I thought of. Other scenarios can be used to illustrate the point.

[Ventnor]

doctor_wu wrote:

Actually speaking of verstatility meaning power a ysoki technomancer can do every role other than captain and not the best at gunner.

Technomancers get Piloting as a class skill. They can be perfectly fine gunners if they want to be.

[Steve Geddes]

Ventnor wrote:

doctor_wu wrote:

Actually speaking of verstatility meaning power a ysoki technomancer can do every role other than captain and not the best at gunner.

Technomancers get Piloting as a class skill. They can be perfectly fine gunners if they want to be.

Just I n passing: being a class skill is irrelevant isn't it?

The way I read it, using piloting to make a gunnery check depends on ranks, not bonus.

[Rub-Eta]

Because all high-level full casters went back in time, before the Gap, to live on Golarion. Why? Because they could. And that's why there's no left.