Are players just worse at skills than NPC's and monsters in Starfinder?


Rules Questions


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Monster Examples:
Dead Suns 1-pg58 CR5 Garaggakal:
Skills:
-Acrobatics +16 (5Rank+5Dex+3class?=13?)
-Athletics +11 (5Rank+2Str+3class?=10?)
-Stealth +16 (5Rank+5Dex+3class?=13?)
-Survival +11 (5Rank+2Wis+3class?=10?)

Dead Suns 1-pg58 CR6 Rauzhant:
Skills:
-Acrobatics +18 (6Rank+2Dex+3class?=11?)
-Intimidate +13 (6Rank+0Cha+3class?=9?)
-Survival +13 (6Rank+0Wis+3class?=9?)

First Encounter-pg14 CR5 Sarcesian:
Skills:
-Acrobatics +17 (5Rank+5Dex+3class?=13?)
-Bluff +12 (5Rank+2Cha+3class?=10?)
-Computers +12 (5Rank+3Int+3class?=11?)
-Survival +12 (5Rank+0Wis+3class?=8?)
*Note they have Racial Traits instructions and include 0 skill bonuses

In fact the only monster examples that ever had any skills without invisible bonuses seem to be monsters CR1 and lower.
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There isn't much about NPCs in the Core Book:

pg389 says they should have similar skill to party
However
pg326 under "Crew Level" says 1 crew member will be Master at any given ship skill giving them Tier(CR)*1.5+9 (If I am reading "1-1/2 * the NPC's ranks" correctly). So at CR1 the opposing pilot has +10 pilot and at CR20 would have +39. Both numbers I don't think any player can possibly reach at the same level, much less a character not designed "just to be the pilot".

Only other info I can find is pg392 under "Skill DC's" says a challenging skill DC should be 15+1-1/2*CR or APL. When a character only gains 1rank a level how would a character keep up with that progression? A challenging CR20 skill check would be DC45. A Lv20 Player could have max20ranks +max9Stat(18start+6enhancment+4level), for a total bonus of +29...

There are a couple small bonuses from feats, race, or class but that means a character is required to max a single stat and ranks in the connected skill and look for other bonuses just to have a chance of keeping up with this games scaling difficulties. If you are not built focused on a given task you will fail at higher levels.

Oh and lastly starship actions have a 2*Tier scaling meaning the numbers get impossible even faster. Or you stop upgrading your ship so it's Tier stays low and the party can actually do combat actions...
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tldr: I think the designers expected more +skill magic items like pathfinder, but they removed most of them. They designed the monsters with and DC's with this in mind and it makes mid-high level play impossible due to faster scaling than level.


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Computers are and interesting example.

pg215 under "Control" it gives them a skill of 2.5*Tier(or 2.5*Level)

That lines up pretty close with a surprising amount of numbers. If that is the scaling the designers where going they got it everywhere but the player characters.

PC's get an initial boost of 3 for class skill and +whatever they have in their stat. Each level after they only get 1 potential point in ranks. And every 4ish levels they might get a +1 from a stat. There are small boosts like feats or certain class abilities (ie Envoy) but those are only occasional boosts and don't add up to 1 - 1.5 per level.

This means they start with a good chance of success, but nearly every level any scaling task (some skill tasks are still locked at specific numbers) becomes maybe 3-ish% harder not easier.
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Am I missing something?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
RadEn wrote:
tldr: I think the designers expected more +skill magic items like pathfinder, but they removed most of them. They designed the monsters with and DC's with this in mind and it makes mid-high level play impossible due to faster scaling than level.

I think your "tldr" must be right. Especially when we take into account (as you note) the very high DCs of some crew actions (especially those with Tier*3 DCs). I'm hoping that some of these +skill items will be re-introduced in future material...

RadEn wrote:


There isn't much about NPCs in the Core Book:

pg389 says they should have similar skill to party
However
pg326 under "Crew Level" says 1 crew member will be Master at any given ship skill giving them Tier(CR)*1.5+9 (If I am reading "1-1/2 * the NPC's ranks" correctly). So at CR1 the opposing pilot has +10 pilot and at CR20 would have +39. Both numbers I don't think any player can possibly reach at the same level, much less a character not designed "just to be the pilot".

FWIW, I think these numbers are *possible* for a PC to get (though certainly not attainable by someone who's "just a pilot"). As far as I can tell, the max PC pilot skill bonus at level 1 is:

+14 = 1 rank + 3 class skill + 3 skill focus insight bonus + 4 ability score modifier +2 lashunta bonus +1 ace pilot theme bonus

which is higher than the NPC +10.

And the max PC pilot skill bonus at level 20 is:

+41 = 20 ranks + 3 class skill + 6 operative insight bonus + 9 ability score modifier +2 lashunta bonus +1 ace pilot theme bonus

which is higher than the NPC +39.

Of course, hitting those numbers requires a mixture of class-specific, theme-specific and race-specific bonuses...


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

NPCs are not built using PC rules; this extends to skills. They do not have skill ranks, rather their good skills are 4 + 1.5*CR and their master skills are 9 + 1.5*CR.

The scaling does seem off in terms of PCs not being able to attain the results at higher levels. Tasks should not get harder simply because you gained a level.

Dark Archive

Yeah, seems pretty rough. If you're not a Lashunta and not an operative you can't match an NPC pilot.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Will NPC pilots benefit from their ship computers?

Also, a Lashunta Star Shaman Ace Pilot will get 1 point insight more at level 20.


This actually sounds pretty awful. I will admit to low pathfinder experience (though I know Starfinder is sorta its own beast) but how bad are we talking here?

Is there any real solution besides a DM eyeing it and going with what they think is right?

I was hoping to run a starfinder game for my players pretty soon and this thread has made me hesitate.


Porridge wrote:
I think your "tldr" must be right. Especially when we take into account (as you note) the very high DCs of some crew actions (especially those with Tier*3 DCs). I'm hoping that some of these +skill items will be re-introduced in future material.

Umm, how about no, that is not the answer. i want to play a competent pilot, not someone who has to pop skill pills or devote significant chunks of WBL into a skill in order to have a 50/50 to pass a check expected for a character at any given level. I do not mean to be rude to you, my frustration is with the DC scaling. It is built for either NPCs to do skills for the party or based on some extra set of rules that has not yet been released. I am holding off on any combat commentary until i see alien archive but the skill math i'm seeing everywhere shows that something is significantly off in the core rules.

But really, if you needed the pilot implant, serum of flying not badly, max stats, max ranks, skill focus and/or a class and theme bonus to make the DC than its not a DC you were actually expected to make. Maxing out that hard should trivialize the encounter at the expense of your abilities elsewhere, not just make it possible.

Liberty's Edge

Well, let's examine this. A level 5 Operative gets a flat +2 on all skills. So, a level 5 Operative with a 20 in the stat in question can manage a +15 readily. +17 or more with racial/theme mods. That's on par with the high skills of CR 5 creatures.

A level 20 NPC would theoretically have +34 or +39 skills.

An Operative with a 28 stat can manage a +38 just by maxing the skill, and more with race or theme specific bonuses (as noted above). And several other Classes can get within a point of that

NPC skills appear unrelated (on a mechanical level) with their stats, so the only relevant bit is whether a PC can match them. And it looks like an optimized PC can, in fact, match their high skills, while even a non-optimized PC can match their lower ones. And an Envoy can rapidly beat them at their own areas of specialty.

And the 'problem', if it is a problem, does not get worse as you level. Not notably anyway.

NPCs of your CR are really good at the skills they're specialized in. That seems reasonable enough to me. It's a slightly different dynamic than Pathfinder, but it's not unreasonable.


A CR 5 encounter is supposed to be a challenge for four level 5 PCs.

Is a single level 5 PC a challenge for four level 5 PCs? If no, then CR 5 does not equal Level 5. It equals some higher level.


Bookrat is right here, unlike Pathfinder were an equivalent CR encounter was supposed to be easy, in Starfinder equivalent CR encounters are meant to be challenging.

In Pathfinder I regularly needed CR +3 encounters to remotely challenge my players because of their optimization. In Starfinder, you can't optimize nearly as much (currently anyways) and an equivalent CR encounter is supposed to represent a significant threat to the PCs.

Silver Crusade

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I think that there may be an issue, but its not quite what people think it is. Following is all theorycrafting, of course.

The focussed character will just about manage to keep up with and maybe even pass the DCs through at least the early teen levels (and I personally don't care what happens at that point since if I ever play at that level enough splat books will have come out to totally change things anyway). They'll have to blow lots of resources to keep up and so will be less effective elsewhere but its not unreasonable to expect the Pilot, Mechanic, Computer Guy to blow lots of resources on that in a Starfinder game since, presumably, those skills will come up a lot in very important way.

What I don't like is that I think relatively soon (level 5-8 ish or so) characters will start to lag in areas that they don't specialize in. To the extent that they might as well not try except maybe to aid another.

So, the Cha 10 or 12 character with ranks in diplomacy might as well not even bother. At level 8 the DC to make a diplomacy check on an indifferent person is 27. At level 8, the dabbler has a +2 (Stat, includes 1 boost) + 8 + 3 = +13. Sure, they CAN succeed but ...

At level 2, that same dabbler had a +6 vs a DC of 18. So, he has gotten worse over the levels.

This is pretty much the exact opposite of Pathfinder. At about level 7 or so the dabbler can afford their circlet of persuasion and the DCs aren't going up as quickly.

So, ironically given the welcome number of skill points, I think that Starfinder will value specialization to a greater degree than Pathfinder. At least as the game progresses.

There is a counterbalance to the above which is just about impossible to theorycraft. Specialists will NOT be taking skill focus in their specialties (unless granted for free by their class) since their class will give them insight bonuses that soon make Skill focus worthless. But other classes WILL be tempted to take it just so that they stay competitive longer.

It may also be a moot point. You want to play a skilled specialist, you play an Envoy or Mechanic. You want to play somebody who is good at just about everything and nearly top at a few things (losing out only to Envoys and Mechanics in their specialities) you just play an operative.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As far as theory crafting goes I agree with you. I suppose we will see it in play, but for anything with a scaling 10+2*Tier DC, max ranks + class skill alone just isn't enough to bother with.

At level 20, 20 skill ranks +3 class, +5 stat, gets you to a +28. So you fail on natural 20 roll to hit the scaling 10+2*Tier DC.

I know there are other bonus at high level that can be tossed around. So maybe it'll work out. But it seems to be hyper specialize or go home. Don't even think about trying to be well rounded with skills at .5 ranks per level being useful.


pauljathome wrote:
This is pretty much the exact opposite of Pathfinder. At about level 7 or so the dabbler can afford their circlet of persuasion and the DCs aren't going up as quickly.

That's not really my experience with PF.

I tend to make PCs who spread out their skill points rather than hyper focus on a few skills.

By mid levels, my characters could never pass the skill challenges in the APs. And money couldn't be spared for skill boosters, as they had to be spent bringing up attacks, saves, ac, primary stat, etc..


I'm wondering if the plan is to introduce more augmentations which provide bonuses to various skills. For example, on pages 210-212 there are a number of skill enhancing augmentations.

Retinal reflectors provide +1 to visual perception at level 3.
An upgrade to the same eye slot, the Wide-Spectrum Occular implant, can give you an untyped +2 bonus to Perception at level 5 (plus some other nice sight bonuses).

The tympanal cluster provides +2 to hearing-based perception checks at level 4.

Skin of the Chameleon provides a +3 circumstance bonus to Stealth checks at level 6.

Climbing Suckers can indirectly give you a +8 to climb checks and let you take 10 all the time by giving you a climb speed for a mere 1,200 credits at level 3.

These are all relatively low level compared to when various checks start to become very hard, at which point you easily afford all of them for less than the price of a single appropriate level consumable. If more of these bonuses are introduced and at higher levels, the 1.5 scaling starts to seem quite reasonable. The above upgrades are providing roughly +1 per 2 levels required, and when combined with ranks per level seem to be about right.

Liberty's Edge

Hiruma Kai wrote:

I'm wondering if the plan is to introduce more augmentations which provide bonuses to various skills. For example, on pages 210-212 there are a number of skill enhancing augmentations.

Retinal reflectors provide +1 to visual perception at level 3.
An upgrade to the same eye slot, the Wide-Spectrum Occular implant, can give you an untyped +2 bonus to Perception at level 5 (plus some other nice sight bonuses).

The tympanal cluster provides +2 to hearing-based perception checks at level 4.

Skin of the Chameleon provides a +3 circumstance bonus to Stealth checks at level 6.

Climbing Suckers can indirectly give you a +8 to climb checks and let you take 10 all the time by giving you a climb speed for a mere 1,200 credits at level 3.

These are all relatively low level compared to when various checks start to become very hard, at which point you easily afford all of them for less than the price of a single appropriate level consumable. If more of these bonuses are introduced and at higher levels, the 1.5 scaling starts to seem quite reasonable. The above upgrades are providing roughly +1 per 2 levels required, and when combined with ranks per level seem to be about right.

Sadly that basically makes the problem exactly what people are saying high up in the thread; the game was built to be filled with skill increasing items, yet they were stripped too thin so that now it makes late game impossible unless you are a specialist. So basically it means we need to get a few splatbooks before going too far in, which I can deal with, but won't necessarily enjoy.


Aramilian wrote:
Sadly that basically makes the problem exactly what people are saying high up in the thread; the game was built to be filled with skill increasing items, yet they were stripped too thin so that now it makes late game impossible unless you are a specialist. So basically it means we need to get a few splatbooks before going too far in, which I can deal with, but won't necessarily enjoy.

I hear you on that point. On the bright side, players and GMs can estimate pretty easily what an appropriately priced item should be. The prices seem to be in line with or just a tad cheaper than an equivalent level armor or weapon. So a level 10 augmentation with a +5 bonus to a skill should cost around 16,000 credits.

Certainly would have been nice in the base rules. As for the currently released AP and Starfinder Society, they should be going up to only level 12 or so, and so the scaling issue is not as bad without skill boosting items/augmentations.

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