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Who's to say that trolls aren't also dinosaurs in Golarion?Your Avatar is wrong. You're not a dinosaur, you're a troll.Yes to most but not to all.Will Runelords Other than the final 7 be present? I think Belisarius had their successor trapped in some sort of temporal freeze?
Also, Will this AP assume the Seven Swords of Sin Module happened? and will we see any of the swords?
Depends ... I suspect James Jacobs is an awakened dinosaur with a few templates. ;)
Creative Director
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So...since James is in this thread about the Runelords, I think I'll ask some questions. ^_^
• What questions can't you answer?
• What questions can you answer?
{. . .}
Now you know he can't answer that . . . .
I meant what sorts of questions. During the later days of his ask thread, there were always questions where he said, essentially, that certain spoilers would be hazardous to his job.
Also, I seem to have scared him off, as he hasn't showed up to this thread for a while. ):
Nah, I'm still here. I just am not as active in posting to the boards here as I have been due to unpleasant experiences associated with the boards that I'm not gonna get into here.
But also, we're about a year away from the first volume of Runelords being released. The adventures are still being written. I'm unlikely to start developing the adventure path for a few more months (still have a few other things looming before I can start there). As a result, there's a lot that's still in flux or undecided.
All that means that I'm not too comfortable giving out much more information, since so much of it is subject to change, but also because this is precisely the point in a product where I want to sit back and watch folks chat about it and make predictions and the like, since that helps me make decisions about where to go when developing the thing in the end. And anything I say about it will "taint" that whole process by folks assuming that what I say about something is set in stone.
So keep chatting folks! I'm watching, even if I'm not replying.
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one question: if the RotRL PCs are still around wouldn't they basically just point the PCs to the Runeforge with directions on how to craft runeforged weapons (or if your players are like mine, would have crafted runeforged weapons for EVERY Runelord, just in case another one wakes up in their lifetime)?
especially the latter version is a bit troublesome, because there are weapons out there specifically created for this event
That is indeed a great question, and just one of many that will be addressed as the AP unfolds. The involvement of, potentially, 2 groups of 17th level or thereabouts parties of ex-PCs needs to be handled with care in order to keep the focus on the currently active group of PCs who are the ones actually playing Return of the Runelords, after all.
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[Not Serious Question for James Jacobs]
- Can we assume that the Runelord of Wrath's kid brother, Scott the Not Very Pleasant, won't be making an appearance in this Adventure Path?
[/Not Serious Question for James Jacobs]
[Serious Question for James Jacobs]
- Will here be homages to encounters/plotlines from the original RotR AP? Will an adventure feel familiar, giving us deja vu?
- Will there be goblins in it? Or hill giants or other monsters from the original AP?
[/Serious Question for James Jacobs]
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- Will here be homages to encounters/plotlines from the original RotR AP? Will an adventure feel familiar, giving us deja vu?
- Will there be goblins in it? Or hill giants or other monsters from the original AP?
It's a sequel to Rise of the Runelords and Shattered Star, and as such bringing forward themes from those two adventure paths is indeed important to Return of the Runelords.
Giants are intrinsically tied into Thassilon, so we can't do more with Thassilon without having some giant stuff in it. There will certainly be some giants in the adventure path as a result.
Goblins... not so much. They were a big part of Burnt Offerings, but a non-essential part of the Thassilon plotline overall.
For example, I ran word searches on the 22,335 word-long outline for Return of the Runelords, and got the following:
"Giant" is used 28 times.
"Goblin" is used 1 time.
Make of that what you will for now! :-P
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BTW, was Runeforge mentioned in Shattered Star? I know that Jorgenfist is plot important to Shattered Star, but I can't remember anything else really.
Also, while I was earlier thinking about how I don't want to Return of the Runelords assume much about fates of characters who can be spared by pcs if they surrender rather easily, I just realized that since my party avoided the dam breaking at all if there is Black Magga vs fight I have to make changes anyway since shes still in storval deep in my campaign :'D Dang players being too smart
Anyhoo, started to wonder about npcs that are quite likely to survive. Like, in Runeforge I can see that succubus and Jordimandus surviving rather easily, in final book I can't really think of any foe except Viorian if pcs realized she is puppeted by her weapon. I can't really see any of those being referenced or very plot important(well I guess Viorian does make sense since her motivation after campaign is to make sure none of other runelord return and have others meet same fate as her), but is there any NPC you guys think could easily make cameo? What about shattered star related stuff?
Also, since I'm tired which means I'm in mood to babble, am I only one hoping this AP has bonus statblock of Mhar? I really want statblock for Mhar so if I wanted to follow on sequel Xin-Shalast campaign from Lost Cities of Golarion, I could know more concretely what Mhar does(especially if he ends up being born so I guess mythic game final boss? *shrugs*)
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"Giant" is used 28 times.
"Goblin" is used 1 time.
Make of that what you will for now! :-P
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!
CREW! TO ARMS! WE'VE GOT AN ADVENTURE PATH TO TOTALLY HIJACK!
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am I only one hoping this AP has bonus statblock of Mhar?
on one hand, no, you're not the only one I'd want that too, OTOH I'd need those statblocks in the next couple of months IF I decide to go that route..on the third hand (or on the first foot) IF I find the time to fletch out Season 4 into a working adventure because my group desperatly wants to kill Krune now, Mhar would make a really good endboss, on the fourth hand I really don't want to invest that much time in Season 4 at all
(that's a lot of hands)
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One take on Runelord Sorshen as a CR 25 mythic trickster, tier 3. She wound up with a +83 Bluff before situational modifiers such as moment of prescience in effect.
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I just woke up after sleeping horribly(woke up several times due to bad dreams, etc, so slept less than 4 hours I think) so I'm still tired and not thinking clear, but I think I had some sort of tiredom epiphany
I realized that reason why I think Jade Regent by default taking place after Return of the Runelords feeling wrong is that it would be only case of older AP being confirmed to not happen before newer AP. All other aps that aren't connected to other aps don't usually make statements at all whether previous one happened, sure if worldwound was closed you'd think it would affect Numeria, but nothing in Iron Gods requires the worldwound to be open(after all, there are still demons to cleanup after its closed) so it doesn't presume Wrath of the Righteous hasn't happened yet.
Also, it means we won't ever see what happened to Rusty Dragon after Ameiko left to become empress(since I can't really think of any other reason why Jade Regent would take after it). On that note, geez Koya Mvashti would be even closer to venerable age huh?
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I'm looking forward to this AP. Level 20 is always really hard to reach as the spells/abilities become ...1 shot or a slog.
Looking forward to using the libraries of old Thassilon and the one in Kaer Maga and the other one...for the peacock spirit adherents. I was wondering if their was some vague connection to the goddess Roidira as well.
Sorshen would definitely play well as a pseudo-ally. Alaznist being an early boss in the AP.
Xanderghul being the final boss or perhaps a non-enemy of the PC's.
I would be stoked if the entire city of Crystilan came out of stasis and became the Capital of New Thassilon.
Oh yeah Authors - dont forget to include Eldarius in your AP somewhere.:)
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one question: if the RotRL PCs are still around wouldn't they basically just point the PCs to the Runeforge with directions on how to craft runeforged weaponsThat is indeed a great question, and just one of many that will be addressed as the AP unfolds. The involvement of, potentially, 2 groups of 17th level or thereabouts parties of ex-PCs needs to be handled with care in order to keep the focus on the currently active group of PCs who are the ones actually playing Return of the Runelords, after all.
Yeah, when we decided to move our second AP to the Stolen Lands so we could continue the narrative following Kingmaker, we took pains to (A) make sure that the same group of people who played PCs #1 and subsequently PCs #2 knew that #1 had faded into the background. We gave them the opportunity to "broad stroke" how they spent their retirement. We also added twenty years to the timescale (it's now something like 4735 AR in our campaign setting). It was a fun session. One PC decided to start up a sporting league (basically a soccer/rugby hybrid) and personally commission stadiums built across the kingdom for the tournaments. Another character started up their own flavor of Desna's religion. (We also had 3-4 Mythic levels at the end of our AP). So we have a new group of PCs made up of a hybrid of veteran and new players. It will be really interesting to see how it unfolds.
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So... am I the only one who ordered all the printed Shattered Star material (books, cards, pawns - already had the map folio) on the drive home from GenCon?
We just finished book 3 of RotRL (RotRL1?) and at our pace, it will be another 2 years before we finish, but I have a feeling Shattered Star is going to start to sell out while Pf groups try to get caught up before Return is published.
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So... am I the only one who ordered all the printed Shattered Star material (books, cards, pawns - already had the map folio) on the drive home from GenCon?
We just finished book 3 of RotRL (RotRL1?) and at our pace, it will be another 2 years before we finish, but I have a feeling Shattered Star is going to start to sell out while Pf groups try to get caught up before Return is published.
I already had it all, I've always been a big fan of Shattered Star.
Hopefully, it'll get the appreciation it deserves. :-)
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This AP goes to level 20? That significantly reduces the chance of me running it.
And virtually guarantees I'll run it.
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So what is Vancaskerkin family tree anyway?
Orik, Verik(iirc I know it was Ve at least), Saul, Natalya(iirc how to spell name), the one from 100# bonus npc for giantslayer?
If I remember right, Saul and <Bonus.Vancaskerkin> were brothers, and Orik, Verik, and Natalya are all Saul's kids.
My money? We meet Mama Vancaskerkin.
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So what is Vancaskerkin family tree anyway?
Orik, Verik(iirc I know it was Ve at least), Saul, Natalya(iirc how to spell name), the one from 100# bonus npc for giantslayer?
If I remember right, Saul and <Bonus.Vancaskerkin> were brothers, and Orik, Verik, and Natalya are all Saul's kids.
My money? We meet Mama Vancaskerkin.
which one? Natalya has a different mother than Orik and Verik and if I'm not mistaken was raised by a third one
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Not every Adventure Path is going to be the best Adventure Path for everyone. That's always been the case, and this is no different. I've pointed out many times that this is why we do 2 a year. So that if we do one that, say, focuses on pirates, or mythic rules, or being evil, or mixing fantasy and science fiction, or being a sequel that goes to 20th level, the next one or the prior one will still potentially be options.
That said... one of the BIGGEST requests and wishes I've heard from folks about the Adventure Path line is that people WANT one that goes to 20th level, so I expected that part of the announcement for Return of the Runelords to generate a lot of excitement and relief and interest.
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Well, I am excited about it, Mr. Directosaur.
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Color me excited. We just finished RotL a couple of months ago and I told the GM we found his new AP after we finish the camapaign I just started.
*With the small caveat that my 17th level druid gets to make a cameo, wink wink.
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Not every Adventure Path is going to be the best Adventure Path for everyone. That's always been the case, and this is no different. I've pointed out many times that this is why we do 2 a year. So that if we do one that, say, focuses on pirates, or mythic rules, or being evil, or mixing fantasy and science fiction, or being a sequel that goes to 20th level, the next one or the prior one will still potentially be options.
That said... one of the BIGGEST requests and wishes I've heard from folks about the Adventure Path line is that people WANT one that goes to 20th level, so I expected that part of the announcement for Return of the Runelords to generate a lot of excitement and relief and interest.
What people want and what they ask for are sometimes two very different things.
Reference: Art of Dragon Magazine.
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Not every Adventure Path is going to be the best Adventure Path for everyone...
Count me as excited and must buy. It will be a while before I can play it because I'll be running Starfinder and Crimson Throne next, but we'll get there eventually!
Strangely enough, this may be the only adventure path where I'm looking forward to the sidebars. I'm interested in seeing the ideas for encounters with previous parties and for how surviving NPCs can be involved, like Shalelu, Vancaskerkins, Brodert Quink, etc.
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I'm definitely glad to see an AP going to level 20, and I hope we might get more of those in the future.
I'm also particularly excited that it's going to have places for Rise of the Runelords and Shattered Star PCs, since that's something my group would have to figure out anyway. I like that the path is apparently going to account for that. (And I do have fun revisiting old characters in cameos.)
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Fortunately my Iron Gods campaign will probably be wrapping up right around the time this is finished shipping. Sweetness.
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That said... one of the BIGGEST requests and wishes I've heard from folks about the Adventure Path line is that people WANT one that goes to 20th level, so I expected that part of the announcement for Return of the Runelords to generate a lot of excitement and relief and interest.
I'm kind of annoyed. Not at you. It's just... folks who don't like a thing are extra eager to spread sour. Meanwhile, people who like a thing are content, so silent. And if a situation arises where there's one of each, it ends up an argument, which is bonus-sour.
It sucks.
It'd be nice if once in a while the anti-thing crowd (and while it may seem I'm referring to Gorbacz [who, by the way, I almost always agree with, and deeply respect], I'm really, honestly not; this is a general commentary) sat back and didn't share their dislike as much. I don't care for pirate-themed anything, or Cthulhu-themed anything, but when Skull & Shackles was announced, I didn't tell everyone... no, I bought Razor Coast as supporting material in case I ever run it, and when Strange Aeons was announced, I didn't tell everyone... no, I bought Pett's Blight as supporting material and I will be running it.
James, all I'm saying is that I've seen the toll the sour has taken on you over the last few years, and it sucks really, really hard. You've been an accessible, friendly, enthusiastic, supportive individual and if I knew a way to undo some of the damage, I would. All I can say - I guess - is that most of the time, I quite like what you lay your hands on. This one included. In advance.
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That said... one of the BIGGEST requests and wishes I've heard from folks about the Adventure Path line is that people WANT one that goes to 20th level, so I expected that part of the announcement for Return of the Runelords to generate a lot of excitement and relief and interest.I'm kind of annoyed. Not at you. It's just... folks who don't like a thing are extra eager to spread sour. Meanwhile, people who like a thing are content, so silent. And if a situation arises where there's one of each, it ends up an argument, which is bonus-sour.
It sucks.
It'd be nice if once in a while the anti-thing crowd (and while it may seem I'm referring to Gorbacz [who, by the way, I almost always agree with, and deeply respect], I'm really, honestly not; this is a general commentary) sat back and didn't share their dislike as much. I don't care for pirate-themed anything, or Cthulhu-themed anything, but when Skull & Shackles was announced, I didn't tell everyone... no, I bought Razor Coast as supporting material in case I ever run it, and when Strange Aeons was announced, I didn't tell everyone... no, I bought Pett's Blight as supporting material and I will be running it.
James, all I'm saying is that I've seen the toll the sour has taken on you over the last few years, and it sucks really, really hard. You've been an accessible, friendly, enthusiastic, supportive individual and if I knew a way to undo some of the damage, I would. All I can say - I guess - is that most of the time, I quite like what you lay your hands on. This one included. In advance.
Thanks for the kind words! And indeed, the toll the internet has taken on my attitude is pretty significant; it's why I stopped answering questions on my Ask James thread, after all. And why I've increasingly not been posting much here, or going to conventions, and so on. It wears one down, which makes it all the more important to hear when someone empathizes and compliments. So... thanks again! :-)
But the advice of "not engaging when you don't like something that you see other people DO like" is GREAT advice. It's something I've been trying to do myself for the past several years when friends get excited about shows or books or games or whatever that I'm ambivalent toward or actually do not like. I just get quiet, let them talk and enjoy things, and don't worry about the fact that they like something I do not.
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I wonder if there is a way to combine Rise, Return and Shattered Star as a single Mega AP.
As I have extremely fond memories of the Baldur's Gate CRPG trilogy, I'm really really really hoping Owlcat Games has a huge success with their Pathfinder: Kingmaker CRPG game.
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The hype boiler cannae take any more, captain! She's lit up like a Christmas tree, you've got to let her slow down!
You should look up Freehold. I'm sure he could sell you a gently used Hypejammer® Helm™ for a reasonable price. Probably has one still on the lot that a nice old lady only drove to church on Proxima Centauri b on Sundays.
Maybe I'll just write the Anniversary Edition of Second Darkness myself. ^_^
{clicks manically all over Isabelle's comment looking for hidden SD:AE Kickstarter link}
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I realized that reason why I think Jade Regent by default taking place after Return of the Runelords feeling wrong is that it would be only case of older AP being confirmed to not happen before newer AP. All other aps that aren't connected to other aps don't usually make statements at all whether previous one happened, sure if worldwound was closed you'd think it would affect Numeria, but nothing in Iron Gods requires the worldwound to be open(after all, there are still demons to cleanup after its closed) so it doesn't presume Wrath of the Righteous hasn't happened yet.
Also, it means we won't ever see what happened to Rusty Dragon after Ameiko left to become empress(since I can't really think of any other reason why Jade Regent would take after it). On that note, geez Koya Mvashti would be even closer to venerable age huh?
Not to be rude, sir, so I apologize if it comes across that way, but there's an awful lot of spoilerage contained in these two paragraphs for a couple APs . . . I'd consider using tags for stuff like this.
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Not every Adventure Path is going to be the best Adventure Path for everyone...Count me as excited and must buy. It will be a while before I can play it because I'll be running Starfinder and Crimson Throne next, but we'll get there eventually!
Strangely enough, this may be the only adventure path where I'm looking forward to the sidebars. I'm interested in seeing the ideas for encounters with previous parties and for how surviving NPCs can be involved, like Shalelu, Vancaskerkins, Brodert Quink, etc.
Sadly, Shalelu and Brodert will not have a place in any further campaigns in our Golarion . . . though Brodert has become known as a lady's man in Varisia, so he's got some kids that may continue to show up! Two of them started our Shattered Star campaign (though only one remains)!
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Maybe I'll just write the Anniversary Edition of Second Darkness myself. ^_^{clicks manically all over Isabelle's comment looking for hidden SD:AE Kickstarter link}
If I do, it'd be 100% fan content, probably just made and dumped on these boards. Nothing fancy, like a PDF or anything, just "here's some statblocks and new box text and such".
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The Rise of The Runelords was the first adventure path I read all the way through and loved. The Runelords are so interesting to me, and I am so glad that they are finally waking up. Here's to the new empire.
Thank you James for setting the alarm, for our new overlords. I'm looking forward to this one a lot!
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I don't care that I'm back in school for the next four years, I'm going to be absolutely begging to get to play this once it comes out. In fact, why wait to start begging?
Anyone in Raleigh NC or within say 20 miles thereof willing to run it and let me play in it? I play kooky/bizarre characters fwiw. XD
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Ever since I first heard of "Seven Deadly Sins as secular philosophical guidelines," I wondered what societies based on them would be like. The descriptions of them so far haven't disappointed, and that was even before I'd played Bioshock.
Even though I'll most likely be wrong, I can't help but imagine Xin-Cyrusian to have been completely destroyed, with a permanent illusion of itself at its height overtop of its wreckage. Complete with an intelligent magic item that emits an illusion of Xanderghul, constantly reassuring itself that nothing is wrong and anyone who says otherwise must be ignored at all times.
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I game-mastered Rise of the Runelords, until recently the group sadly broke down (at level 15) after almost being tpked by the boss of the necromancy wing.
I really enjoyed all the thassilonian lore and am very eager to buy and read the new AP, even if i won´t play or master it.
Thank you James Jacobs for creating one of the most memorable settings in fantasy literature.
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Not to be rude, sir, so I apologize if it comes across that way, but there's an awful lot of spoilerage contained in these two paragraphs for a couple APs . . . I'd consider using tags for stuff like this.I realized that reason why I think Jade Regent by default taking place after Return of the Runelords feeling wrong is that it would be only case of older AP being confirmed to not happen before newer AP. All other aps that aren't connected to other aps don't usually make statements at all whether previous one happened, sure if worldwound was closed you'd think it would affect Numeria, but nothing in Iron Gods requires the worldwound to be open(after all, there are still demons to cleanup after its closed) so it doesn't presume Wrath of the Righteous hasn't happened yet.
Also, it means we won't ever see what happened to Rusty Dragon after Ameiko left to become empress(since I can't really think of any other reason why Jade Regent would take after it). On that note, geez Koya Mvashti would be even closer to venerable age huh?
Well, can't edit the old post anymore, but really, is that more of a spoiler than "There is Runelords in rise of the runelords"?
Anyhoo, on the whole negativitiy positivity thing, I dunno if you really should say that eeyores should shut up, but I do agree that if only thing you bring on table is "I don't like this thing" then you might as well be silent yeah. Its not criticism really to me if it isn't constructive, I'm pretty sure if all criticism was more like "I think I would have liked this more if it was done this way" everyone would feel little better. Or maybe I'm too optimistic here?
Either way, I guess thats kind of hypocritical for me to say since I'm stressed/depressed out all the time since I'm paranoid of ruining people's days all the time :P I end up feeling horrible no matter what I say.
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It'd be nice if once in a while the anti-thing crowd (and while it may seem I'm referring to Gorbacz [who, by the way, I almost always agree with, and deeply respect], I'm really, honestly not; this is a general commentary) sat back and didn't share their dislike as much. I don't care for pirate-themed anything, or Cthulhu-themed anything, but when Skull & Shackles was announced, I didn't tell everyone... no, I bought Razor Coast as supporting material in case I ever run it, and when Strange Aeons was announced, I didn't tell everyone... no, I bought Pett's Blight as supporting material and I will be running it.
James, all I'm saying is that I've seen the toll the sour has taken on you over the last few years, and it sucks really, really hard. You've been an accessible, friendly, enthusiastic, supportive individual and if I knew a way to undo some of the damage, I would. All I can say - I guess - is that most of the time, I quite like what you lay your hands on. This one included. In advance.
+1
So, maybe it is a good idea to let you know positive thoughts as well.
Anyhow, I just want to add that I'm superexcited about the two upcoming AP's. By making those, you have taken everything that was on my wishlist for future AP's. This might just become an existential crisis: nothing left to wish for anymore.
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[T]his is precisely the point in a product where I want to sit back and watch folks chat about it and make predictions and the like, since that helps me make decisions about where to go when developing the thing in the end.
I can do this, then. Lesse... Focusing on what I know...
• Korvosa will have been taken over by Sorshen's mind control, mainly to be as comparable as possible with other people's CotCT campaigns. There will be a sidebar for "what if the PCs became rulers?"
• The Korvosa part of the AP will be intrigue heavy, because James likes that and it's what players are asking for anyway. As am I. (:
• Vampires. Everywhere. Sadly, they'll be as cookie-cutter as possible for copyediting reasons. This will be amended by giving each one a distance personality blurb.
• Not as many succubi as you'd expect, sadly, and more Mythos things than you'd prefer. Mythos things are fun monsters, but they're NOT SCARY. Soul-stealing devils are. Speaking of which...
• Lorthact will be one of those evil allies Paizo likes to use so much, making for a literal deal with the devil.
• That succubus from Demons Revisited, wasshername...? looks up Ayandamahla. She'll definitely be there, likely as an alternate choice to the local exiled duke, because f%#& devils (and not in the fun way).
• We will finally see what's under Castle Korvosa.
• Paizo will forgot to have a sidebar titled "why don't we just make a deal with an empyreal lord?" I’m all-to-eager to speculate why, but I feel I’ll be disregarded because neckbeards make complaints look bad.
• The neckbeards will hate this AP, because they hate Paizo's devs, they hate the setting ("it's too generic,""it's too social justice"), they hate the rules (but will gladly take advantage of them to create 100hp damage/round non-mythic martials while complaining about how weak they are), and they hate any character concept more nuanced than "murderhobo," because "good is dumb." How am I supposed to have complaints when they make that look bad?
(Dang, I’m getting negative. I need to lighten things up a bit.)
• Kusasfa (that’s Sorshen’s favorite) will be a mummy wearing a silly hat.
(Okay, I’m not so good at light comedy.)
• There’ll be an option to ally with Sorshen against Xanderghul, and vice versa.
• Just as Sorshen has lots of vampires, who’re supposed to be immune to mind control, Xanderghul will have at least one marilith (aka a pride demon) for whom true seeing does nothing. Add in other true seeing-capable monsters as appropriate.
• Using the Everdawn Pool will have Consequences™, because PC’s can’t have nice things lest they interfere with the Story™. Sorry, I’m getting negative again, but I don’t like having agency taken away! Besides, it’s late-game anyway.
• Anyone galavanting in Sorshen’s spare meat puppet will have vulnerabilities that go beyond a penalty to resist scrying. She might have some advantages, however…
• Any quest to take out Sorshen’s other spares will, sadly, be relegated to Pathfinder Society or tucked in a tie-in novel. Paizo, I like you a lot, but I can’t stop being cynical!
(Should I put all my complaints in one post? Or would that just be too negative? Hmm...)
I think I’ll stop for now, while I think up more speculations for Sorshen, and other, lesser, Runelords. (Why do we capitalize that, but not empyreal lords?)