This is a group project. We are trying to figure out how to do a more detailed population. Since a couple of the players are really trying to get the locals involved in solving problems and improving the overall quality of life in the area.
We have Jim-Bob the brand new farmer who decides, since he is the third son and won't inherit his father's farm, to start a new radish farm.
Commoner level 1.
He could take the feat Skill Focus: Farmer. (If human, endurance seems logical for the extra feat for a sunrise to sunset farmer.)
Lets assume a +1 from ability score.
A +3 from class skill.
Can only have 1 rank.
So for farming, he has a +8 pretty respectable actually.
Now a few years later, he obviously knows what he is doing a lot better. His farm is at least a marginally successful going enterprise. By the game system the only thing you can do for him is give him another level.
Commoner 2.
Can only have 2 ranks in the skill.
He now has a +9 in farming. Not much difference, but maybe he can also put a rank in appraise or diplomacy to do a better job of selling his radishes. (Though only if he didn't drop his intelligence.)
Then he becomes a well known and respected radish farmer. His farm should be doing pretty well by now. He has years of trial-and-error and school-of-hard-knocks learning. By the game system the only thing you can do for him is give him another level.
Commoner 3.
Can only have 3 ranks in the skill.
Could take the feat Prodigy for another +2 to farmer and appraise/diplomacy.
Let's say middle age gives him another ability +1.
No he has a +14 to farmer. Pretty huge jump.
I really don't have too much problem with the above. However, that means you have a heck of a lot of 2nd and quite a few 3rd level folks in every single village. Yet everyone assumes that almost everyone is a 1st level commoner.
That doesn't make sense if people learn and grow better in their profession over the course of their lives.
Pretty similar with craftsmen or other professional type people. Though you could say they are experts with ranks in more skills that augment their profession.
It's even worse with military type professions.
Millitia
City Watch
City Guard
Professional Soldiers
Veteran Troops
Elite Troops
NCO's and Officers for the above
That's not even considering the feats needed to have the capabilities historically expected for RL military units that actually existed.
You are going to end up with units of warriors at level 5+ which is way beyond what anyone expects.
Not sure what to do about some of these issues of learning to be better at how you choose to make your non-adventuring living. Any ideas or suggestions?
dot
Yet everyone assumes that almost everyone is a 1st level commoner.
Well, there's the problem. That's just not true. It's probably a holdover from the "almost everybody in 2e is a 0th-level ditchdigger" guideline.
Well I'd assume that most common people are 1st level. Not necessarily 1st level commoner, but I do agree with them being 1st level. Most skill checks are accomplishable by 1st level, and what else do they do that's beyond 1? I'm okay with 2nd or even 3rd level NPC classed people, but it gets weird when hero classes start getting involved.
A world class MMA fighter, for example, would not be something close to a 5th level Brawler. A 5th level Brawler can take on a small group of Gorillas and break their necks or even knockout pissed off Rhinoceros with his bare hands. I know you didn't mention hero classes, but I just wanted to explain why I don't agree with them being used often on normal people, which is something you would see in the GM guide.
What do they do beyond 1? They get better.
And this is Pathfinder. A world class MMA fighter in Golarion would be able to kill you by strangling you with said gorillas.
A lot depends on what the average person could do, if anything, to gain XPs. If XPs are earned by surviving life or death battles, then most people would be 1st level regardless of age and non-combat experience.
What i do for my NPC's is give them NPC classes (Farmer, Banker, Merchant, Guide, Etc). This imparts Class skills in relevant fields so that their few skill ranks go much farther with that +3. And it lets them add a single skill rank/HP point for taking it as a favoured class. As well they get a profession/perform/craft bonus as well.
At 2nd level they get a bonus feat appropriate to their position.
And before you ask, yes, I would totally let a player take this class =p
As well, there are healer, wizards, and at least a few warriors capable of helping the PC's at higher levels, usually with healing spells and scrolls or warriors strong enough to hold a gate. So not everyone should be level 1.
David Knott 242
XP can be gained for overcoming major challenges, completing quests, as well as for killing. I could see clearing, sewing, and successfully growing a new field as an accomplishment that could net some NPC xp.
Maybe merchants could negotiate a deal of a lifetime and rake in a huge profit from a single massive sale, XP there.
If PC's can gain xp through diplomacy checks, or disabling traps, NPC's can do so as well, albeit much much slower.
A lot depends on what the average person could do, if anything, to gain XPs. If XPs are earned by surviving life or death battles, then most people would be 1st level regardless of age and non-combat experience.
Then how do they get better at something.The journeyman carpenter who has just started making chairs at the beginning of his profession vs. the master carpenter that makes a formal dining room set for the duke in his later years?
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According to the Inner Sea world guide:
Level 1 to 5, is basically common or called standard. Most people with only npc classes are in that range.
Level 6 to 10, Powerful or exceptional individuals , most of the nations shakers and movers.
11 to 15, are rare, leaders or specially trained troops only can find a handful of them in most nations.
16+ exceptionally rare.
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Sandpoint analysis for comparison:
Notable npcs in Sandpoint (Small town), aka the exceptional npcs are level 4 to 7, this includes Ameiko and Shalelu.
The average sandpoint guard has 2 level of warrior.
The most powerful npc by pure CR value in sandpoint is Niska Mvahti and she is a druid 3/sorcerer 4/Mystic theurge 1. But she is a venerable human...so technically on the way out and mostly focus on divination.
According to the Inner Sea world guide:
Level 1 to 5, is basically common or called standard. Most people with only npc classes are in that range.
Level 6 to 10, Powerful or exceptional individuals , most of the nations shakers and movers.
11 to 15, are rare, leaders or specially trained troops only can find a handful of them in most nations.
16+ exceptionally rare.
...
Aha! That is good news. Most of the people I have talked to act like nearly everyone is 1st level.
Aha! That is good news. Most of the people I have talked to act like nearly everyone is 1st level.According to the Inner Sea world guide:
Level 1 to 5, is basically common or called standard. Most people with only npc classes are in that range.
Level 6 to 10, Powerful or exceptional individuals , most of the nations shakers and movers.
11 to 15, are rare, leaders or specially trained troops only can find a handful of them in most nations.
16+ exceptionally rare.
...
I'd assume 1-3.
4 and 5 are more for the experienced commoners- the tough old barkeep that sometimes has to kick out rowdy customers. The librarian that knows where you can find all the right info. the old, grizzled blacksmith. Maybe the standard for regular standing troops in a powerful military nation. A cut above the average, but nothing that would get into a history book.
6 through 10 would be more specialized. The captains and lieutenants of the army. The teachers of a wizard college. The head smith of the army's large smithing operation. Maybe the barkeep in the previous example, if he had a past where he took on large gangs (the typical common man action movie types such as John McClain)
11-15 are highly specialized- the generals, the court mages, the magical equivalent of rocket scientists.
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I think part of the problem is most people think that most NPC’s should be commoners. Commoners are only one of the NPC classes and despite the name are often not the most common. Leaving out the adepts because they are spell casters that still leaves us with aristocrats, experts and warriors.
Commoners are unskilled labors not just ordinary people. They represent serfs and slaves and other people with almost no skills. They are not farmers; they may be farm hands but not the actual farmer. In many societies they will be far less common or even nonexistent. You could use them for the village idiot or local drunk.
Jim-Bob owns his farm so is not a commoner he is an expert. This gives him 6+ skill points per level so he will have a lot more skills than just profession farmer. So in addition to profession farmer he also has craft carpentry, handle animal, knowledge nature, ride and survival. This allows him to make repairs on his buildings and simple things out of wood like a fence. He can also control the horse when plowing. Knowledge nature allows him to know which seasons to plant and harvest as well as some waring about weather. Survival allows him to supplement his food with some fresh meat like rabbits and birds. As he levels up he puts a few points into sense motive and diplomacy to get better deals and not to be taken by con artists.
Jim Bob has a hired hand Simple Simon. Simon was raised as a sef in another land. He grew up working in the fields of his local lord. He used to wake up before dawn to eat his meager breakfast before reporting for duty. He worked all day in the fields until it was too dark to continue. He got a short break to eat his simple lunch. He has points in profession farmer and handle animal because that he was trained to do. He does not read or write because that was forbidden to serfs where he came for.
Members of a militia are going to be normal citizens from where they come from so will probably be experts. A militia is not made up of professional soldiers but rather ordinary citizens who serve in times of need.
Military professions will be warriors but most will be 1st level. Keep in mind that fighting is a dangerous profession especially in a fantasy world. These are not mall cops that don’t face dangerous situations; these are people who will end up fighting for their lives. Many of them will lose the fight and end up dead. The reason most are low level is simply turn over. Being a soldier in a lords army who is assaulting an enemy castle is not a safe occupation, most of them end up dead or crippled. You may end up with a small number of higher level warriors as veteran troops. But their numbers will be small.
Elite Troops and officers are probably not NPC classes but rather player character classes. Since they are better trained and equipped they will be more likely to survive and gain levels. Most of these will still probably end up 2nd or 3rd level at most. But a 3rd level fighter will have 4 feats (5 if human) available to them.
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I would say commoners are technically not that bad.
i mean the npc codex uses commoner to show some interesting examples:
-Beggar
-Pig farmer
-Barmaid
-Shopkeeper aka typical merchant in cosmopolitan area: don't need to be an expert to sell things. They just can't offer a lot of information to say the least.
-Village elder
-Constable
-Traitor
In my opinion:
-Elf commoners are somewhat like human aristocrats due to their intellectual pursuits and connection with nature. In contrast Elves aristocrats are leaders of their clans and have many years of experiences.
-The typical dwarf commoner is a miner. The Dwarf aristocrat is a protector of his clan, a guardian and essentially serve his people first, work well with the dwarves sense of duty and responsibility.
I would assume the average person experiences about a CR 1 challenge once per month, and begins gaining experience points from level 1 as an adolescent. Let's also assume that elves and dwarves value their long lifespans, and as a result of their care only experience a CR 1/2 challenge each month; gnomes on the other hand throw themselves into danger and experience a CR 2 challenge.
Running the numbers, humans range up to about level 7 before dying of old age. Half-orcs make it to 5 or 6, halflings and half-elves get to about 10 or 11. Venerable elves and dwarves could be expected to reach upwards of level 15, while the rare gnome who makes it to venerable could be level 16. This math is as I recall from a few years ago.
4 and 5 are more for the experienced commoners- the tough old barkeep that sometimes has to kick out rowdy customers.wrong all barkeeps are retired lvl 15+ adventurers
Well, the real barkeep.
Enough of those adventurers are high level casters, or just guys with disguise checks, so they have fakes sit at the bar while the real one pretends to just be an old regular.
Need to do that so they can deal with the inevitable assassins that come.
The fake barkeeps are levels 4 and 5. Enough to confuse the other common patrons.
RE: XP: this is a meta level thing. XP is a way to determine when, in the course of playing the game, the characters level up. NPCs unless they are partying with the PCs (and maybe not even then) don't get or need XP. they are whatever level is appropriate, and raise to whatever level is appropriate when is becomes so.
I mean, I'm not saying if you are doing it differently that's wrong, but I don't think that's the default assumption
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Some feats are very meaningful in the hands of NPCs.
Ran the numbers again - my math was very fuzzy. The challenges are once per year, not per month. With that in mind, level progression is as follows:
Human: middle age (3), old (4), venerable (5); maximum (7)
Dwarf: 5, 6, 7; 9
Elf: 4, 6, 7; 10
Gnome: 6, 8, 9, 12
Half-Elf: 5, 6, 7; 8
Half-Orc: 3, 4, 5; 5
Halfling: 5, 5, 6; 8
Ran the numbers again - my math was very fuzzy. The challenges are once per year, not per month. With that in mind, level progression is as follows:
Human: middle age (3), old (4), venerable (5); maximum (7)
Dwarf: 5, 6, 7; 9
Elf: 4, 6, 7; 10
Gnome: 6, 8, 9, 12
Half-Elf: 5, 6, 7; 8
Half-Orc: 3, 4, 5; 5
Halfling: 5, 5, 6; 8
Your figures also assume that the NPC actually deals with the challenge instead being killed or simply fleeing the situation. They also fail to take into account that the whole CR rating was designed for a party of 4 and only go up to a party of 6. This also assumes that the NP actually manages to overcome all challenges. It also fails to account for the fact that certain NPC classes will be more likely than others to encounter challenges. A warrior that is assigned patrol a wilderness area is a lot more likely to encounter a challenge than a expert who never leaves town.
That being said your numbers for humans look to be about right. But also keep in mind that many if not most NPC’s don’t actually survive to reach higher levels. While a middle age human is probably about 3rd level they will be a lot less of them then in modern society. From what I have been able to find with a quick web search the average lifespan during the middle ages was about 35. Part of this was the fact that infant mortality rates where a lot higher, but the fact is that people did not live as long. I would say that non-humans follow a similar pattern to humans and will have approximately the same level distribution over their lifespan.
Certain NPC classes will survive at different rates. Commoners will die more often because they are usually engaged in hard labor and have relatively low resources for such things as health care and proper nutrition. Warriors will have better resources but probably have an even shorter lifespan due to the dangers of their occupation. I read somewhere that a warrior would begin training by age 7, and was considered an adult by age 14 and was usually dead by age 20. Experts would probably usually live until middle age due to better resources. The average aristocrat would probably make it at least old age.
Race will play a part in not just the level of the NPC but also what class they are. Some NPC classes will not even be present in some races. The average elf would be at least an expert and player character classes would be a lot more common. They would not have adepts because any child with the potential to cast spells would probably be trained in a player character class, most often wizard. Most elven “warriors” are probably actually rangers. Dwarves would be mostly experts and warriors with almost no commoners and very few other NPC classes.
Most Humans who focus on a profession or craft would probably take Skill Focus and Prodigy. With a 15 (13+2) stat, their bonus is +11 at level 1.
I'd opt for Defiant Luck + Inexplicable Luck. +8 to your weekly profession roll. Taking 10, and with skill, tools and a stat bonus, that's a guaranteed 26. So 13 gold pieces per week.
There's a town (carnival, flea market, etc.) where everyone takes the Bonded Mind teamwork feat to scam newcomers.
Ooh, I like this idea.