The attacker jumped out and got off a first attack, then initiative rolled, then surprise round, then normal initiative.
Nope.
Jumping out and getting off a first attack is the surprise round (if you're in a position to do that as a Standard Action).
Once that's happened, the defenders are aware of the attackers; the surprise is over, and you go into normal initiative.
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Your Tiger example is the correct one.
Start of Combat: everyone rolls initiative
Surprise Round: Those who can act do so according to their initiative.
Normal Combat rounds then continue.
I think sometimes we've played where only those acting in the surprise round get to roll initiative, and then after the surprise round everyone else rolls initiative. This takes away your ability to make a surprise round decision with the knowledge of where you'll act with respect to the rest of the party once combat starts.
The tiger example doesn't seem quite right to me either.
The tiger should have to jump out of the long grass and pounce in a single standard-action charge, not jump out and then get a separate surprise round after that.
If they weren't able to do that, due to distance or terrain, the surprise round is now over and the tiger now has to try to win initiative.
I'm pretty sure this is how the rules say to do it. It's better balanced this way too. A pouncing tiger can do more than 50 points of damage to a low level PC.
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The tiger example doesn't seem quite right to me either.
The tiger should have to jump out of the long grass and pounce in a single standard-action charge, not jump out and then get a separate surprise round after that.
If they weren't able to do that, due to distance or terrain, the surprise round is now over and the tiger now has to try to win initiative.
I'm pretty sure this is how the rules say to do it. It's better balanced this way too. A pouncing tiger can do more than 50 points of damage to a low level PC.
As I understand it, the tigers could do a partial charge as a standard action and then get a full attack as a pounce.
Yes, but only if they can get to within forty feet in a straight line from a PC, without difficult terrain between them, and without the PC being aware of them.
This is going to be difficult, as in order to hide you need some sort of cover, and most natural cover is difficult terrain.
Jumping out of the bushes first and then still getting a full surprise round makes this a lot easier.
Yes, but only if they can get to within forty feet in a straight line from a PC, without difficult terrain between them, and without the PC being aware of them.
This is going to be difficult, as in order to hide you need some sort of cover, and most natural cover is difficult terrain.
Jumping out of the bushes first and then still getting a full surprise round makes this a lot easier.
But that's not with the rules. If the tiger's jump out before starting combat then they are likely visible to the players and thus there's no surprise round cause everyone is aware of everyone when initiative is rolled.
If the tigers start combat in the bushes hidden from the players then they get their surprise round to jump out of the bushes and then can charge on normal initiative (hey look, it ends up the same!)
I think you're agreeing with me?
The OP wants to know whether the tiger can:
(a) Jump out the bushes and then get an attack and then get a surprise round and then go into normal initiative, or:
(b) Jump out of the bushes and then get a surprise round and then go into normal initiative.
My answer is:
(c) Get a surprise round where the tiger starts in the bushes (which may inconvenience its ability to attack), and then go into normal initiative.
This is going to be difficult, as in order to hide you need some sort of cover, and most natural cover is difficult terrain.
If they are hiding by the side of the road, the square they are in may be difficult terrain, but none of the squares they are moving through will be.
1. Both hiding and charging are legal in this scenario
2. This is exactly how cats hunt IRL.
For a regular cat, maybe. Can a 10' by 10' creature move out four squares of difficult terrain without passing through difficult terrain?
For a regular cat, maybe. Can a 10' by 10' creature move out four squares of difficult terrain without passing through difficult terrain?
Is grass difficult terrain or concealment?
Giving the surprisingly large number of creatures that can both hide and run in grass, I would rule the later.
Maybe. The difficult terrain rules aren't that detailed. Grass tall enough to hide a tiger would be pretty thick, but it's up to the GM.
I wouldn't rule that the grass is necessarily difficult terrain, though some areas might be dense enough to be. I would generally just say it provides concealment.
If they jump out as a separate action than attacking, then when you roll initiative they aren't concealed and there's no surprise round.
If the jump is part of their charge, then this is their standard action in the surprise round.
Them winning imitative is just part of the fact that both stealth and initiative are dex-based. I've had many characters take advantage of this. I've also played in stealth-based parties and few creatures survive to their turn in round 1.
As for the difficult terrain part of it, this is why I use a lot of ideas from 4e's charging rules. Charging is not a standard action that moves your speed. If you get more than one attack on a charge, you must take a full action to get them, but you can move 2x your speed. Difficult terrain does not stop you, but lowers your move appropriately. You don't have to move in a straight line, but each square of movement must bring you closer to the target. Save attack and AC modifiers as normal.
This makes charging much more feasible. In regular Pathfinder, it's often hard to get a charge going on.
Partial charge has been removed as an action type. I recall that you can only charge with actions restricted when your actions are -forcibly- restricted, such as when a zombie is acting, or you have been slowed, not during a surprise round.
I'd love to see evidence of that call being reversed.
Otherwise the cats rise up to charge, and they cease hiding at 10+ feet away from the party, and init starts for the first round because everyone sees the not-hiding tigers/smileycats.
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Partial charge has been removed as an action type. I recall that you can only charge with actions restricted when your actions are -forcibly- restricted, such as when a zombie is acting, or you have been slowed, not during a surprise round.
I'd love to see evidence of that call being reversed.
I'd love to see (read) this RAW. Where is it referenced? My group has been allowing partial charge during a surprise round (if fact, one of my PCs has built his character around this). If this is wrong, I'd like to know where it states that. :)
partial charge is allowed in surprise round since you are restricted like the other times it can be used.
For a long time now my group has been quoting (I believe!) a James Jacobs post about not being able to charge during the Surprise Round because it is not a restriction to actions but a restriction of time applying to all creatures.
Then this from the FAQ:
Pounce and Slow: If a creature with pounce is under a slow effect, and it charges, does it still get its full attack from pounce?
According to the rules as written, pounce would allow the creature its full attack, despite the slow effect.
(This happens because there is no "partial charge" action in the Pathfinder RPG.)
I can no longer find the dev-post! This may mean a table-wide reversion to the old partial charge rules, which we have been missing for years.
Huh, I never saw that post. I thought partial charge existed specifically because of surprise rounds.
So the plays of my campaign are on horseback travelling through open planes.A couple of Smilodon (Sabertooths) sneak along the side of them no one rolls perception high enough to see them in tall grass.
Tigers Jump out. I say to roll initiative. Then both Tigers get to pounce as the surprise round and then into the normal initiative.
To me, that sounds right by in a similar situation I played in where this happened. The attacker jumped out and got off a first attack, then initiative rolled, then surprise round, then normal initiative.
Can I confirm at what point most people do this. to me, option 1 sounds fairest but want to see how others do it.
Thanks.
It's slightly different that as you said, but almost got it.
A surprise round is a full round (instead of starting battle at "Round 1", start the battle at "Round 0"), you're just limited by the actions that can be made by the creatures acting on it (namely, creatures in a surprise round are limited to performing a standard or move action)
The way to run a surprise round, acording to rules, is:
1-. You roll initiative for all creatures
2-. Surprise round (Round 0) starts. The creatures that get a chance to act in the surprise round do it acording to their initiative values. (In your scenario, your sabertooths pounce here as a standard action, no party members act because they all got surprised, but if a player happened to detect them at the same time they jump, that player also gets to act in this round).
Remember that creatures that have not yet acted are considered surprised and flat-footed (so, the surprise can carry on to the next round if the sabertooths roll high enough to beat the initiative of their targets)
3-. Surprise round ends
4-. First combat round (Round 1) starts.