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Honestly, I'd let them play the fourth level pregen but apply it to the first level character. Aren't we over thinking this?I would, too, but I would be cheating and doing it knowingly.
I went ahead and flagged this comment.
Indirectly referring to people who disagree with you as cheating is really not acceptable.
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Honestly, I'd let them play the fourth level pregen but apply it to the first level character. Aren't we over thinking this?I would, too, but I would be cheating and doing it knowingly.I went ahead and flagged this comment.
Indirectly referring to people who disagree with you as cheating is really not acceptable.
Why does cheating have such a negative connotation? Going against the rules is just cheating, that's pretty much all there is to it. That doesn't mean anything other than it just is.
The House of Harmonious Wisdom quests blend some aspects of quests and past evergreen adventures. Namely:
You can replay this quest series with 1st-level PCs.
You can earn credit for this series once (as a player, as a GM, plus Core, etc.) at any level above 1st.
This quest series does not require the use of pregenerated characters.
Because these quests represent a flexible means of running short, fun adventures, they're also a great option for using as demo events. Depending on the venue and event goals, it might make sense for an organizer to require (or just strongly encourage) use of pregenerated characters when running these quests.
You simply can't replay it unless you're level one, it really is just that simple.
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Please, tell me what the short term, long term, or mechanical difference is between a 1st level PC that received credit by playing this scenario, a 1st level PC that received credit by GMing this scenario, and a 1st level PC that received credit by playing as a 4th level Pregen.
Because as I see it, there is zero difference.
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I'm sorry, no.
PCs are not Pregens. Pregens are not PCs.
And you instead skipped the important part:
"You can earn credit for this series once (as a player, as a GM, plus Core, etc.) at any level above 1st."
The credit is literally the only thing that matters.
I have Bonekeep 1 credit on a CORE character (this one). She got the CR when she was 1st level. SO... yeah, the PC get's the credit. Changed the GP to 500 and assigned it as her first CR.
I figure other people could do the same thing...
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Honestly, I'd let them play the fourth level pregen but apply it to the first level character. Aren't we over thinking this?
Hmm
[paraphrase]"This is the PFS board, dear boy. Over thinking it is what we do."[/paraphrase]
I keep saying that these forums aren't for PFS players. They're for people whose hobby is arguing about things on the internet.
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so the statement...
"You can earn credit for this series once (as a player, as a GM, plus Core, etc.) at any level above 1st."
is NOT
"You can PLAY this series once (as a player, as a GM, plus Core, etc.) at any level above 1st."
just earn credit...
makes sense to me.
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But it also says "You can replay this quest series with 1st-level PCs." Since replay isn't usually legal, and it only says you can replay with a level 1 PC, I can see the case for not allowing level 4 pregens, with credit applied to the level 1.
In other words, I think it's ambiguous, and could go either way. I hope campaign management rules on it soon. Until they do, I'll err on the side of making things easier for players.
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This scenario is replayable at 1st level only. Source per John Compton
If you look further down the thread, the same question being asked here was asked there, and it has yet to be answered.
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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The thing is, a lv4 pregen can get 600gp cause they missed out on a ton, and then credit it to a lv1 for 500gp, which isn't the value they'd have gotten had they played as a lv1.
That's not how this adventure works. You earn full rewards from every quest you complete. Success or failure affects your item access, not your gold earned.
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This scenario is replayable at 1st level only. Source per John ComptonIf you look further down the thread, the same question being asked here was asked there, and it has yet to be answered.
Are you saying a Pre-Gen is not a character?
If there was such thing as a PFS legal level 2 Pre-gen would you think you could play that through Wounded Wisp and then downgrade that sheet?
If you played this above level 1 already, then playing it again with a level 4 pre-gen would be replaying as a none level 1.
This scenario does not give rewards based on tier played, it gives them based on character level specifically. It does not make sense to allow the downgrade rules to work on it. Without leadership specifically allowing it, I would not say it is okay to do.
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I would absolutely say it is okay to do, as rewards are based on the level of the character it is applied to.
I wonder then, if a player played a 4th level pregen to fit in the APL, but was applying it to a 1st level character because they had no higher level characters, would they no longer be allowed to play it again with a higher level character?
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Please, tell me what the short term, long term, or mechanical difference is between a 1st level PC that received credit by playing this scenario, a 1st level PC that received credit by GMing this scenario, and a 1st level PC that received credit by playing as a 4th level Pregen.
Because as I see it, there is zero difference.
The mechanical difference is that you're playing as a 4th level character, have access to more skills, more expendables, and more gear.
That and it's already been pointed out twice in this thread where John stated the intent, then later clarified. Once you've played it above level 1, you can only play it at level 1. If you feel that should be changed, then say that, but per John's own words, the way it currently is you can't.
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Are you saying a Pre-Gen is not a [player] character?This scenario is replayable at 1st level only. Source per John ComptonIf you look further down the thread, the same question being asked here was asked there, and it has yet to be answered.
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The credit is literally the only thing that matters.
If this were true, there would be no need to have language about being able to only replay it with a level one PC. And because there is that additional language, then, no, credit is not "literally the only thing that mattes."
And assuming your argument that a pre-gen character and a PC aren't the same things, the plain text of the rules related to THIS scenario would be that you can't play pre-gens.
But we know you can, so you have to look at them in the context of the rules that are there, and for me (and I support Claude's interpretation here) is that if you have credit above level 1 and you want to replay it, it's either with a 1st level character or the equivalent, which would be a 1st level pre gen.
I'm not going to spend any more time going back and forth. This thread is already just a bunch of the same stuff over and over again. We can let John make a ruling on it, or we can just administer it as we interpret it in our respective regions.
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I wonder then, if a player played a 4th level pregen to fit in the APL, but was applying it to a 1st level character because they had no higher level characters, would they no longer be allowed to play it again with a higher level character?
Personally, I use an online spreadsheet to track who's played which scenarios, but for Evergreens I only make note of which PCs received credit above level 1. I don't log what level they applied the Chronicle at.
For example, Gallows of Madness (replayable 1-3) I know I can't replay because I made a note that a PC received credit above level 1. I don't know what actual level they were when they received credit.
So I'd handle this the same. If I played through the Quest once with a 4th level Pregen, but applied the credit to a 1st level PC, I'd have no notation that I couldn't do so again.
And I think that's fine. The idea of limited replay is really intended for PCs. No Pregen is going to steal the show, and they're not receiving increased rewards by doing so, either.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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People (Nefreet in this case) keep saying there's a rule saying you choose pregens after APL - but I can't find any such rule. If you're claiming a rule exists, quote it for me.
And I don't believe pregens aren't PCs. A pregen is a character, and a character played by a player is a PC.
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That said, I think allowing L4 pregens replay scaled down to L1 rewards would be a good fix for the problems suggested with this series.
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I wonder then, if a player played a 4th level pregen to fit in the APL, but was applying it to a 1st level character because they had no higher level characters, would they no longer be allowed to play it again with a higher level character?Personally, I use an online spreadsheet to track who's played which scenarios, but for Evergreens I only make note of which PCs received credit above level 1. I don't log what level they applied the Chronicle at.
For example, Gallows of Madness (replayable 1-3) I know I can't replay because I made a note that a PC received credit above level 1. I don't know what actual level they were when they received credit.
So I'd handle this the same. If I played through the Quest once with a 4th level Pregen, but applied the credit to a 1st level PC, I'd have no notation that I couldn't do so again.
And I think that's fine. The idea of limited replay is really intended for PCs. No Pregen is going to steal the show, and they're not receiving increased rewards by doing so, either.
Just because you have a different way of tracking credit, doesn't negate John's multiple statements about only being able to play at level 1..
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People (Nefreet in this case) keep saying there's a rule saying you choose pregens after APL - but I can't find any such rule. If you're claiming a rule exists, quote it for me.
Literally the only way to determine what that subtier is is to calculate APL first.
There are multiple threads discussing this. It is certainly not just I.
And that's how I've always understood it for my five years of PFS. Apparently the new Guide will address this more concretely.
But if you wish to discuss this further, there are many threads we can bring back for that purpose.
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So, if I am understanding this correctly , the following match up of players at a table is how it works.
Players A & B sit down with 4th level characters ready to play this for the first time.
Player C has played it before with a 2nd level guy, and so is required to run a 1st level (One of her own, or a 1st level Iconic)
Player D is a walk-in who has never played PFS before, so she is required to play a 4th level Iconic.
so the mix is:
4 (PC), 4 (PC), 4 (Iconic), and 1 (Iconic)...
Did I get that correct?
Player D has no option to play a 1st, unless they create a PC on the spot, and Player C HAS to play a 1st, as they have played a 2nd level in this before and so have gotten credit for it at a level above 1st...
NOW, ... if Player D were to play a 1st level, the sub-tier would be 2.5 (or would it be 3?), which means they would have to play at sub-tier 1-2... BUT because she is a beginner using an Iconic, and there are two "real" 4th level PCs at the table, she has to play a 4th level Iconic.
I guess the beginner COULD just say their 1st level Iconic is actually a "real" PC... which would drag the table back to lower tier... but there is a danger that the Iconic might not be a legal "real" PC...
edit: at this point the beginner decides she wants to go play a board game, and zips off before the game starts... so the players have to put in a 4th level Iconic to have a table of 4...
or wait, the Beginner stays, but Player A notices the Starfinder table starting up and excuses himself to go play that. Now we have a table of 3... with:
4 (PC), 4 (Iconic-Beginner), and 1 (Iconic-Experienced Player)... and a 4 (Iconic-Judge run). But that's ok, now we can get the Experienced Player (Player C) to also run the Judge-Puppet (you know, the 4th level Iconic) as well as the 1st level Iconic (that they are required to run) - after all, they have the most "free time" at the table, running the lowest level PC after all...
wow...
Edit-Edit: and I just realized this means the Beginner (having played it with a 4th level Iconic, but assigning the credit to a 1st level PC) CAN'T play it again except with 1st level PCs... so Player D has now become Player C, sort of... (blink-blink).
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Muse, I believe you have clearly and completely illustrated the problem.
nah, not "completely".
There are still issues with the way the APL is calculated...
Before Iconics the APL is 4, after it is 3.2 which rounds to 3 which at a 4 player table means they are playing down... so before the Iconics they are playing sub-tier 4-5, but after they are playing sub-tier 1-2. Which just begs the question, do you calculate the APL AGAIN after assigning the Iconics? And would you then have to Switch what level Iconic you are playing if it puts you in a different sub-tier?
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Muse's situation wouldn't happen at my table, because I believe the two Pregens are required to be 4th level.
Easy peasy.
EDIT: same with Markov's.
EDIT EDIT: some people just like to complicate things and watch the world burn.
But if the rule is that you need to play the lv1 pregen for replayability then the situation comes up.
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Muse's situation wouldn't happen at my table, because I believe the two Pregens are required to be 4th level.
Easy peasy.
EDIT: same with Markov's.
EDIT EDIT: some people just like to complicate things and watch the world burn.
You reported a post and called out one of my players/GMs for IMPLYING that other people were cheating (when that wasn't what he was saying), and then you slyly come here and attack other people? I don't think that's called for.
There is a legitimate difference of opinion here as the rule isn't as clear as anyone would have us believe. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they "like to complicate things and watch the world burn." I'd ask you to more carefully consider your words, particularly if you are going to call out other people.
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Muse's situation wouldn't happen at my table, because I believe the two Pregens are required to be 4th level.
Easy peasy.
EDIT: same with Markov's.
EDIT EDIT: some people just like to complicate things and watch the world burn.
Were as I would empower the players to make the choice of what Iconic to play.
Do they want to play Sub-Tier 1-2? Let the Iconic players run 1sts. Then the APL is 2.5 and they play sub-tier 1-2 with 4,4,1,1. After all, the PLAYERS should know what their PCs can handle. What they are comfortable playing.
Do they want to play Sub-Tier 4-5 (with a four player adjustment)? Give them the option to make that decision themselves. Give them the option to play the level 4 Iconic Characters.
But then we have to worry about players trying to "Grief the Table" and mess with the other players fun. Yeah - we might get that. But those players will always find a way to be a jerk. Trying to remove the ability of one player to be a jerk in one way will prevent a hundred other players from making sensible decisions.
I think the way we do ALP calculations now is... less empowering. I'd like to pass a little more control of the game back to the people playing it. At least a little more "Illusion of Control"...
[sarcasm]But then there are a lot of posters on the board who would object to this idea on principle. "Can't have the PLAYERS making decisions. They clearly don't know the CORRECT way to play... We have to be sure they are having FUN THE RIGHT WAY..."[/sarcasm]
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I want to get up a table now with one level 4 and 4 people playing level 1 pregens. Since you don't count pregens for APL, they have to play subtier 4-5 (with no commensurate rewards!,) with a real APL below 2.
but this would only work at a table of HoHW. with any other scenario the Iconic players would be required to play an Iconic in the Sub-Tier.
But with a table of HoHW, you could get someone playing for the first time with their 3rd level guy, and 4 people replaying (so 1st level Iconic players)... which would be APL 3 and required to play up because they have 5 players.
Yeah, rigid rules make for ... strange things being forced on the Players.
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4 level 1s and a level 3 is APL 1.4. Four level 1s and a level 5 is APL 1.8. Four level 1s and two level 5s is APL 2.34. There would be no playing up with four level 1 characters.
Nowhere does it say that the pregens don't factor into the APL. It only encourages people to play the pregen in the appropriate (EDIT: Subtier)APL. In this case, since there isn't a choice, the level 1 pregens are appropriate and the game is low tier.
EDIT:
Within each tier, PCs or pregenerated characters
should be used in the subtier in which they fall whenever
possible, but they may be adjusted up or down, based on
the average party level at the table, as outlined below.
Bolding mine. "Whenever possible." If it is not legal for someone to replay with a 4th level pregen, then it is not possible. It is still legal for them to play a level 1 pregen. If playing a level 1 pregen changes the APL and subtler, then that is what happens.
DETERMINING AVERAGE PARTY LEVEL
In order to determine which subtier a mixed-level group
of PCs must play in, calculate the group’s average party
level (APL).
APL = sum of character levels/number of characters
Divide the total number of character levels by the
number of characters in the party, rounding to the
nearest whole number. If the result of the average party
level calculation ends with 0.5, the players should decide
whether to round up or down.
Nowhere in there does it say to leave the pregenerated characters out of the calculation. They are a character at the table. They are included.
That doesn't stop the GM or event organizer from looking at what the APL would be without the pregen as guidance for what level pregen should be played.
Again, I don't know if it's legal to play it with a 4th and assign credit to a 1st or not. But this sidetrack on leaving pregens out of the APL calculation entirely is not correct. Maybe that will change with the Season 9 guide, but it's pretty clear in the season 8 guide.
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First, having been part of some conversations about calculating APL, the intent is that you would:
(1) Calculate the APL based on the "real" PCs
(2) Select the level of pregen most appropriate for the APL above
(3) Recalculate APL with the pregens to verify it has not caused a change that would shift the PCs into a different Tier
This process should cover the vast majority of situations as is how most rules are written. If an extremely unusual situation occurs where the chosen pregen pushes the APL into an unintended sub-tier, it may be necessary to chose another pregen level option. I do not recall what those few extremes were, but the resolution was fairly obvious.
AS far as Harmonious Wisdom is concerned, focusing on "playing" rather than "credit" is closer to the original intention. Meaning, no, you cannot replay using a pregen above level 1. However, that being said, if the situation arose as described with all higher level PCs and one replayer "stuck" playing a 1, I would probably violate the rule, let the player play a level 4 pregen (ie in sub-tier) and just apply the credit to a level 1. Is that cheating? I dunno, but as an organizer and VO, I feel it is my responsibility to consider when bending/breaking the Guide is warranted to support our policy of inclusion and Explore, Report, Cooperate, and when it isn't. I think in this case, it is. Certainly seems like that course of action holds to the spirit of the rules while not ruining the fun of all involved. No one is gaining an unfair advantage, nor reaping unwarranted rewards.
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Okay, I might be kicking the hornet's nest again... but I have a question as this scenario applies to conventions.
If you do all five quests across multiple sessions at a convention (or perhaps two local game days) what do you as the player record the final tier at? It's entirely possibly to do two to three quests with a table that's APL 1 or 2 and finish the remainder with a table is APL 3 or higher (even if your character hasn't changed their level), and visa versa. Do you
I figure this is less of a concern for a GM, who's choosing the tier based on the character for their GM credit. (I could be wrong...)
