I made a similar post in the WotR forums but got the good advice to rather ask here.
So, what are the go to ways to identify demons in disguise? We do have a paladin and a witch, so Detect Magic and Detect Evil are quite easy. I am just wondering if that is not too easy. I mean, if it is just a matter of having a paladin looking at every stranger or casting a quick detect magic, how ddo you ever challenge your parties with shapechangers?
Also interesting is how the general populace would handle this if they are very aware of shapechangers. If it doesn't burn, it's at minimum a Tiefling? That led to my players asking if a shapechanging demon could not simply imitate burn marks.
So, how are your demon hunters handling this?
Sense motive, perception to see that something is odd, seems wrong...
Sounds like your group is meta-gaming tbh. Why are they casting those spells constantly? And are people not being offended that they are constantly being probed like that? I assume it would also be taking them a long, long time for your group to get anywhere if they are casting both constantly on everyone they meet.
Detect Magic does just that: Detects Magic. It doesn't tell you if someone's shapeshifted or disguised. If you spend the full 3 turns on it, you'll know the magic school, which might be suspicious if it's illusion, but transmutation is also the school used for basic weapon and armour enchantments.
As for Detect Evil, that's kind of a Paladin's specialty, so it makes sense for them to gain a significant advantage from it. But even then, it just means the subject is evil, not necessarily a disguised outsider.
Also note that Nondetection is a level 3 spell that blocks divination spells in general, and it's highly unlikely that a party is going to scan every stranger they encounter unless they have reason to be suspicious in any case.
Also by the time people are attempting to burn them, most demons will probably assume their disguise has failed and fall back on fighting/retreating, I would guess
Paladins should find low level scrub demon infiltrators, and demons should find it easy without those basic protections available. If you want to beat a paladin you need a specialized demon. Give them a Ring of Mindshielding (8,000 gp, plan your treasure budget properly), or just give it a single level of Bard, always appropriate for an infiltrator or spy, and they can take Undetectable Alignment as a first level spell. That's probably yet another reason why so many succubi take bard levels.
DerNils wrote: if it is just a matter of having a paladin looking at every stranger or casting a quick detect magic, how ddo you ever challenge your parties with shapechangers? Have them go around casting spells or staring down a few dozen people on the road, a hundred at the market, thousands in a city...
Besides, what would they do anyway if Evil or Magic was detected?
Thank you for your answers. Some context.
We are playing Wrath of the Righteous.I think heading in the Worldwound suspecting everybody is just common sense. Being rude to the people you encounter there is the least of your concern if basically everybody is telling you the awful story of how these shapechanging demons wreck your stuff regularly. (Kenabres Backstory) And having encountered their first traitor demon hiding in survivors set them on edge.
So I am not really asking for the reasoning, I want to know what works and how. Also to guide them in the right direction - as I said, we have a paladin, we have a witch and a wizard with high Knowledge skills, a ranger with favoured enemy evil outsider - so they should actually know how to do this.
As to the burning - I was rather thinking of an easy test with a candle. Hold your hand over the candle. If you get burned, you're fine, if not, well, Occams Razor tells me you are a tiefling or a demon (close to/in the worldwound)
Throw a virgin in the room, see who pounces on her. Wait, that's dragons, isn't it?
True Seeing.
There's also good aligned spells, which should only hurt creatures of the evil subtype, I think. Humans that just happen to BE evil are fine, but demons... not so much.
There's also the old stick fable... if you've got a whole night, tell everyone you've got these demon sticks... they grow in the presence of demons and devils. If you get a good bluff roll, your demon(s) will hack off part of the stick, thinking to compensate for the growth.
There's also trying to convince your GM to let you play a Holy creature. Go around licking everyone. Wait. That affects all evil creatures, not just evil-subtype. But, still! It's funny!
Waterpistol with holywater.... lots of fun!!!
Or you could use this:
Detect Demon.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Pierce Disguise will see through any illusion/polymorph of 3rd level or lower, which covers alter self.
I used Charm Person on a suspected demon once. GM claimed it worked so I felt it was safe to let the demon out, then claimed the demon was faking being enchanted and i was at fault for not saying I'd do a sense motive...
KitsuneWarlock wrote: I used Charm Person on a suspected demon once. GM claimed it worked so I felt it was safe to let the demon out, then claimed the demon was faking being enchanted and i was at fault for not saying I'd do a sense motive... I think that doesn't follow the implication of this from the general magic rules.
Quote: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells. I think this should also apply when your spell doesn't affect someone because they aren't a valid target or SR stops it.
There are feats and spells (e.g. Enchantment Foil) that let you attempt to bluff people that an enchantment did affect you, but presumably those also give a false impression to the spellcaster, in addition to the listed bluff bonus they provide. Without such a feat or spell I don't think a standard bluff is enough without the far-fetched (-10) or impossible (-20) penalties to overcome the fact he sensed his spell fail.
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I agree with Plausible Pseudonym. The GM would have been well within RAW, however, to not tell you why the spell failed and simply said you know it failed. Leaving the why wide open for anything from made the save to invalid target to SR etc.. I also think the demon would have been aware, as per the sentence just prior, that someone or something had just attempted a spell against it. But again it wouldn't have known what had been attempted or by whom automatically.
So, to reiterate ideas in the common scenario - stranger in the wordlwound.
- Detect Evil: will tell me if the opposite is evil or not. Easiest counter - undetectable alignment. Does the Paladin Save vs this?
- Detect Demons/Pierce Disguise. Great ideas, I am always overwhelmed by the pure number of spells in existence. Something I can recommend for my players. I am a bit baffled that there is a level 1 no save spell to detect demons and there are still infiltrator demons that work. Counter - Nondetection
Phew, that will mean some bookkeeping for me, but at least I have some guidelines. Thanks a lot?
I am so happy I didn't go the way of the written adventure and give my players an army of fourth level paladins. This would completely trivialize this.
And the water pistol joke got me thinking about having some kind of holy water sprinklers like they are used in the catholic church (the name evades me). For low level clerics. High level demons could try to bluff around the pain, but it's something!
Not a squirt gun, but it will do. Copied from the PRD:
"BATTLE ASPERGILLUM
Price 5 gp
Type simple
Named for the common aspergillum, a macelike tool used by priests to sprinkle holy water, this light mace has a hollow head and a metal plug closing off the hole through which the head is filled. When the mace strikes a creature, holy water sprinkles out through tiny holes throughout the weapon's head; creatures subject to damage from holy water take 1 point of damage in addition to the normal effect of being struck by the mace (a nonmagical aspergillum can deal holy water damage to an incorporeal creature in this manner, even if the mace itself deals no damage). After 5 hits, the battle aspergillum is empty and needs to be refilled. Filling it with holy water is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity (like drinking a potion). A filled aspergillum is normally carried upright, to prevent the holy water from leaking out as the weapon moves."
And I am unfamiliar with the adventure path and what exactly the World Wound is but,
An area overrun by evil, especially a combination of outsiders (demons) and a planar rift to a plane of evil is exactly the sort of area where I would be likely to tell my players there is a LOT of background noise when they attempt spells like Detect Evil. And therefore they need to make some sort of check against a varying and unknown to them DC ranging from easy to impossible depending on distance from the actual rift, numbers of actual demons that have moved thru the area etc.. to successfully use Detect Evil in a given area. Basically it's an extension of things like lingering auras and the concept that the outer plane itself is bleeding an evil aura into the region.
DerNils wrote: So, what are the go to ways to identify demons in disguise? Your witch could always use the Detect Fiendish Presence cantrip.
Aspergillum, that was the name I was looking for! Thanks, Wolaberry. And thanks for both the cantrip (there is always more spells than you can imagine) and the reminder of the background/lingering aura effects.
Latest when they are actually enterging the Abyss Detect Evil is probably nothing but a wall of noise.
But especially Detect Fiendish Presence brings me back to the question - would that pick up on Demons under "Alter Self"?
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