First World: No good Eldest?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


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So the First World has been pretty well detailed (and great job at it too!). But all the Eldest are evil or neutral? Is this a statement on the brutality and indifference of primeval nature? We do have very good Eldest characters from the very beginning of modern fantasy: Tom Bombadil and Goldberry.

“Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the Little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.” - Fellowship of the Ring.

Of course, they can't put Tom Bombadil in the book for copyright reasons, but there could have been a suitably inspired alternative. If my campaign ever goes to the First World, he'll be there.


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I hear the hooded eldest is Ng.

*ducks before tomato assault*


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As far as I can tell, you're correct. Of course, I don't trust the fey as far as a minmaxed wizard can throw an iron colossus unbuffed, so to me this is just another point on a conspiracy theory.


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Well, we know there are other Eldest that haven't been stat'ed out.

First World, Realm of the Fey provides a list of other Eldest: Apholine the Flame, Baba Yaga, Enchar the Sign, Oleron the Cancer, and Rhoswen the Fellnight Queen.

I would think that the Horned King of the Wild Hunt would probably also qualify.

Now, its true that it is hard to say any of these additional Eldest would be good either based on their descriptions, but there is certainly room for other Eldest who are good.


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Samasboy1 wrote:

Well, we know there are other Eldest that haven't been stat'ed out.

First World, Realm of the Fey provides a list of other Eldest: Apholine the Flame, Baba Yaga, Enchar the Sign, Oleron the Cancer, and Rhoswen the Fellnight Queen.

I would think that the Horned King of the Wild Hunt would probably also qualify.

Now, its true that it is hard to say any of these additional Eldest would be good either based on their descriptions, but there is certainly room for other Eldest who are good.

Not positive if you're saying the above mentioned haven't been stat'ed out, but Rhoswen the Fellnight Queen and Baba Yaga have been. The former in an Realm of the Fellnight Queen and the latter in the Reign of Winter AP.


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I read a rather interesting write up a few months back arguing that Tom Bombadil is the most evil entity in Middle Earth.

Just throwing that out there.


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Considering that the first world is basically the realm of the fae, and considering how the fair folk have been portrayed through basically all of our cultural history, and also how "good" is roughly equivalent to "selfless" I would thing that any particular resident of the first world prone to altruism is going to be either very unusual, or not very long for the world.

Which is not to say that there isn't one, since there's probably one of everything in that kind of place, but it shouldn't exactly be common.

I'm not convinced Bombadil isn't Neutral, personally; but any argument about the alignment of a fictional character (who does not have a stat sheet) is doomed to go nowhere.


Sub-Creator wrote:


Not positive if you're saying the above mentioned haven't been stat'ed out, but Rhoswen the Fellnight Queen and Baba Yaga have been. The former in an Realm of the Fellnight Queen and the latter in the Reign of Winter AP.

I didn't really mean a stat block, but "god stats" like domains, obedience, boons, etc.

Of course, for those specific examples, Baba Yaga's description in Reign of Winter states she denies all worship and Rhoswen has had much of her power stripped from her by the other Eldest and isn't presented as being powerful enough to still grant spells.

We know Baba Yaga is NE, Rhoswen is CE, the Horned King is most likely CN as all other members of the Wild Hunt are. Apholine the Flame sounds pretty N to me, as does Enchar, and its hard to imagine anyone called "the Cancer" being good.

So there are more Eldest, but none of the ones mentioned sound good. Still, it seems likely there is a good Eldest out there somewhere.


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I noticed the lack of good-aligned Eldest too. It seems pretty likely to have been a deliberate design choice, but if James Sutter or anyone else who worked on it would like to comment, I'd be interested to hear what they have to say on the topic.

My take is that when the gods abandoned the First World, the shock of that betrayal pushed the Eldest away from good alignments and left them struggling to build a new moral framework. How crushing it must have been suddenly to have no path in life, because the gods withdrew their guidance -- and also no hope of death, because denizens of the first world cannot truly die. They were left condemned to an eternal life devoid of purpose or meaning.

Magdh and Shyka took refuge in the workings of time, hoping to fill the internal void with foreknowledge, only to find they could see nothing but sameness in the future and the past. When you can see all of it happening at once, ceaseless change becomes a kind of sameness of its own.

The Green Mother lost herself in endless, mindless pursuit of pleasure nad intrigue, while the Lantern King plays a constant stream of ridiculous pranks. Anything to keep their minds off the pointlessness of it all.

The Lost Prince and Imbrex, being clear-eyed realists, became massively depressed.

And Ng -- well, who can say what Ng is up to? Certainly he says nothing about it.


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Samasboy1 wrote:
Sub-Creator wrote:


Not positive if you're saying the above mentioned haven't been stat'ed out, but Rhoswen the Fellnight Queen and Baba Yaga have been. The former in an Realm of the Fellnight Queen and the latter in the Reign of Winter AP.

I didn't really mean a stat block, but "god stats" like domains, obedience, boons, etc.

Of course, for those specific examples, Baba Yaga's description in Reign of Winter states she denies all worship and Rhoswen has had much of her power stripped from her by the other Eldest and isn't presented as being powerful enough to still grant spells.

We know Baba Yaga is NE, Rhoswen is CE, the Horned King is most likely CN as all other members of the Wild Hunt are. Apholine the Flame sounds pretty N to me, as does Enchar, and its hard to imagine anyone called "the Cancer" being good.

So there are more Eldest, but none of the ones mentioned sound good. Still, it seems likely there is a good Eldest out there somewhere.

OR the jabberwock ate them.


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Tinalles wrote:

Spoiler:
I noticed the lack of good-aligned Eldest too. It seems pretty likely to have been a deliberate design choice, but if James Sutter or anyone else who worked on it would like to comment, I'd be interested to hear what they have to say on the topic.

My take is that when the gods abandoned the First World, the shock of that betrayal pushed the Eldest away from good alignments and left them struggling to build a new moral framework. How crushing it must have been suddenly to have no path in life, because the gods withdrew their guidance -- and also no hope of death, because denizens of the first world cannot truly die. They were left condemned to an eternal life devoid of purpose or meaning.

Magdh and Shyka took refuge in the workings of time, hoping to fill the internal void with foreknowledge, only to find they could see nothing but sameness in the future and the past. When you can see all of it happening at once, ceaseless change becomes a kind of sameness of its own.

The Green Mother lost herself in endless, mindless pursuit of pleasure nad intrigue, while the Lantern King plays a constant stream of ridiculous pranks. Anything to keep their minds off the pointlessness of it all.

The Lost Prince and Imbrex, being clear-eyed realists, became massively depressed.

And Ng -- well, who can say what Ng is up to? Certainly he says nothing about it.

Maybe the good Eldest crossed over to the new world and became real gods or Empyreal Lords? Shelyn, Dou-Bral and Thron seem likely candidates, for example.


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Fabius Maximus wrote:
Tinalles wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
Maybe the good Eldest crossed over to the new world and became real gods or Empyreal Lords? Shelyn, Dou-Bral and Thron seem likely candidates, for example.

Thron was a powerful spirit, which isn't the same as a Fae or a god, and Shelyn's mother was a goddess of love.

And the whole "thing" with the Eldest in particular is their abandonment issues; even the so-called "Good" gods abandoned the Firstborn as a mere practice run, which left them hurt and disillusioned with them. I doubt more than a very tiny number of them would even want to go crawling back to them, much less have the capacity to do so.
I do wonder why there are good Fae, but no good Eldest, but I don't think it's because they alone jumped ship out of the First World.


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It would have been nice to have one good aligned Eldest.


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I just took it upon myself to make my own (kind of).


Leingod wrote:
Fabius Maximus wrote:
Tinalles wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
Maybe the good Eldest crossed over to the new world and became real gods or Empyreal Lords? Shelyn, Dou-Bral and Thron seem likely candidates, for example.

Thron was a powerful spirit, which isn't the same as a Fae or a god, and Shelyn's mother was a goddess of love.

And the whole "thing" with the Eldest in particular is their abandonment issues; even the so-called "Good" gods abandoned the Firstborn as a mere practice run, which left them hurt and disillusioned with them. I doubt more than a very tiny number of them would even want to go crawling back to them, much less have the capacity to do so.
I do wonder why there are good Fae, but no good Eldest, but I don't think it's because they alone jumped ship out of the First World.

Being a powerful spirit does not exclude being Eldest or a god.

Yes, the Eldest resent being left behind. Imagine their feelings about being abandoned - betrayed - by their own kind.

Inner Sea Gods wrote:
"Shelyn is the daughter of an unknown mother and the spirit-wolf Thron, the Prince That Howls. In primordial times, Thron roamed the mountains, forests and skies, singing his feral ode to life, song, and love."

That sounds like an Eldest to me.


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Well, I got the notion that one can't really apply the usual notions of alignment when talking about the First world, seing as LN Magdh and CE Ragadhan both have CG servants, if I remember correctly.
Also, the mere fact that the Lantern King, the prototype for lantern archons and thereby all archons, is inherently CN with slightly evil tendencies speaks volumes about what a clusterf*ck the First World truly is.

Liberty's Edge

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Leingod wrote:
Fabius Maximus wrote:
Tinalles wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
Maybe the good Eldest crossed over to the new world and became real gods or Empyreal Lords? Shelyn, Dou-Bral and Thron seem likely candidates, for example.

Thron was a powerful spirit, which isn't the same as a Fae or a god, and Shelyn's mother was a goddess of love.

And the whole "thing" with the Eldest in particular is their abandonment issues; even the so-called "Good" gods abandoned the Firstborn as a mere practice run, which left them hurt and disillusioned with them. I doubt more than a very tiny number of them would even want to go crawling back to them, much less have the capacity to do so.
I do wonder why there are good Fae, but no good Eldest, but I don't think it's because they alone jumped ship out of the First World.

Or the Good gods got to save the Good Eldest but could not muster enough support from the Neutral and Evil gods to save the Neutral and Evil Eldest from the First World.

Maybe they also saved the Good faes of that time by including them in the new world, except for those who refused.

So, the First World would have become an exile for Neutral and Evil Eldest and their willing followers, which actually sounds like an acceptable compromise on the part of the Good gods


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FormerFiend wrote:

I read a rather interesting write up a few months back arguing that Tom Bombadil is the most evil entity in Middle Earth.

Just throwing that out there.

This write-up?

Dark Archive

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Maybe there was a good eldest, a dancing laughing matron of dryads, fauns, domovoi, grigs, nymphs, swanmaidens and similar kind-hearted joyful fey, with areas of concern like celebration, intoxicants and music.

She's dead now. Hence the saying, 'the only good Eldest is a dead Eldest.'

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Samasboy1 wrote:
We know Baba Yaga is NE, Rhoswen is CE, the Horned King is most likely CN as all other members of the Wild Hunt are. Apholine the Flame sounds pretty N to me, as does Enchar, and its hard to imagine anyone called "the Cancer" being good.

I believe Oleron the Cancer has been statted out... just not in Paizo material. If I recall, he's one of Mr. Sutter's contributions to the third-party Faerie Path Kickstarter, and the mention in The First World is a reference to that.

As for the question, I don't think he was actually evil. But his focus on unrestrained and even aberrant growth, regardless of consequences, earned him association with a similar physiological condition.

I could be misremembering, though. ^_^


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kalindlara wrote:
Samasboy1 wrote:
We know Baba Yaga is NE, Rhoswen is CE, the Horned King is most likely CN as all other members of the Wild Hunt are. Apholine the Flame sounds pretty N to me, as does Enchar, and its hard to imagine anyone called "the Cancer" being good.

I believe Oleron the Cancer has been statted out... just not in Paizo material. If I recall, he's one of Mr. Sutter's contributions to the third-party Faerie Path Kickstarter, and the mention in The First World is a reference to that.

As for the question, I don't think he was actually evil. But his focus on unrestrained and even aberrant growth, regardless of consequences, earned him association with a similar physiological condition.

I could be misremembering, though. ^_^

Isn't there some deity like that in Starfinder?


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Cernunnos? Yes? Yes? Anyone? Cernunnos? Cernunnos? Anyone? Cernunnos?

(Hint: it's Cernunnos.)

Thron certainly could be, too! Andoletta and a few similar empyreal lords strike me as similarly related to First World-like elements.

Dark Archive

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Set wrote:

Maybe there was a good eldest, a dancing laughing matron of dryads, fauns, domovoi, grigs, nymphs, swanmaidens and similar kind-hearted joyful fey, with areas of concern like celebration, intoxicants and music.

She's dead now. Hence the saying, 'the only good Eldest is a dead Eldest.'

Tacticslion's mention of Cernunnos makes me want to change my answer. The dancing laughing Eldest of dryads, nymphs and swanmaidens (along other kind-hearted joyful fey) that I just made up, with areas of concern like celebration, intoxicants and music was a *dude.* Probably a blind dude, although it's unclear whether it was from all the wood alcohol, or staring at all the pretty nymphs that done for his peepers.

Fortunately Cayden Cailean was there to pick up the slack, so we still have god of booze and parties.


Well technically there is a dead eldest that was a dryad I believe.

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