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Why were you considering a bard? What did you think bards could do that is disappointing when you actually look at the specs?
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I been looking at it and looking at it and not really feeling it at all. what exactly does the bard do that makes it amazing? sure he can sing and dance and then you make a roll and depending on that roll you can buff your party members.
There is no roll needed to Inspire Courage which is one of the best buffs in the game. You have spells, you have the most skills in the game between 6 points per level and versatile performance, and you have enough BAB to be a decent martial yourself with your buffs.
It's really one of the best designed classes in the game.
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Why were you considering a bard? What did you think bards could do that is disappointing when you actually look at the specs?i personally dislike their spell list most of their best spells provide bonuses that don't stack with their main class abilities which sucks
Inspire courage isn't a morale bonus to attack or damage, its a competence bonus. It stacks with almost everything.
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Inspire courage isn't a morale bonus to attack or damage, its a competence bonus. It stacks with almost everything.Why were you considering a bard? What did you think bards could do that is disappointing when you actually look at the specs?i personally dislike their spell list most of their best spells provide bonuses that don't stack with their main class abilities which sucks
Imbicatus is correct.
The ones that matter are inspire courage + haste + good hope/heroism and they all stack.
Tactical acumen is insight which stacks.
And they stack with other important classes spell like prayer, judgments, divine favor, weapon of awe, rage Etc.
Bards are fun faces that make everyone in a party better. Discordant Voice is amazing for adding damage. Saving finale is a literal PC life saver. Bards are great characters, ironically, for player that want to let others shine.
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Best reason to play a bard: you are excited and interested.
Worst reason: you feel obligated or were told to.
Actually, this goes for any character.
I'd say Bards are pretty versatile. They don't have Jack of All trades for nothing. Although there are always things like the inquisitor which brings support for those willing to team up while remaining really good is people don't want to
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If you to play a bard, then do so, if not then pick something to your liking.
In my experience, it takes a versatile and creative player to properly pull off a bard. If you want to just smash stuff play a barbarian or if you want to throw spells go with wizard.
If you're not feeling it, then go with what attracts you.
There is a wide range of Bard archetypes to consider. Arcane Duelists can be very good in melee combat while still boosting their allies. Arrowsong Minstrel provides a ranged equivalent. Your GM hates Rogues but you like them? Play an Archaeologist Bard and get access to a lot of those Rogue abilities.
If you like nature-themed characters, Voice of the Wild gets access to some Druid/Ranger/Hunter stuff. If you are a fan of Manly Wade Williams' Silver John stories then you'll love the Silver Balladeer. Magician Bards get to add spells from other Spell Lists and are great support for casters in your party. Sound Strikers turn words into weapons.
When you decide what role you want to play in your party, there is likely a Bard archetype that will support that role.
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The thing that a bard brings to the table that is amazing is to make everyone else better. They are excellent buffers, and they are great at skills. Thier spells are fun and can be a game changer in the right situations, and they can be a solid backup damage dealer as well.
Two options to build a good combat bard are as a melee reach bard, or an archer bard.
Melee reach uses a longspear, flagbearer, and eventually a banner of ancient kings to use performance and spells during your turns while still providing aoe damage on off turns, similar to a reach cleric.
They also make perfectly good archers, with the only downside late access to improved precise shot. Even still, you can usually avoid having your target blocked by soft cover if your allies keep shooting lanes open or you make use of a mount.
They also make perfectly good archers, with the only downside late access to improved precise shot. Even still, you can usually avoid having your target blocked by soft cover if your allies keep shooting lanes open or you make use of a mount.
Arrowsong Minstrel archetype, second level ability:
At 2nd level, an Arrowsong minstrel gains Precise Shot as a bonus feat. In addition, any creature that is affected by any of the Arrowsong minstrel’s bardic performance does not provide soft cover to enemies against her ranged attacks with a bow.
Not quite improved precise shot, but almost and at level 2.
They also make perfectly good archers, with the only downside late access to improved precise shot. Even still, you can usually avoid having your target blocked by soft cover if your allies keep shooting lanes open or you make use of a mount.Arrowsong Minstrel archetype, second level ability:
At 2nd level, an Arrowsong minstrel gains Precise Shot as a bonus feat. In addition, any creature that is affected by any of the Arrowsong minstrel’s bardic performance does not provide soft cover to enemies against her ranged attacks with a bow.Not quite improved precise shot, but almost and at level 2.
And they can take IPS at 11th level (rather than 15th level like most Bards) thanks to...
Arcane Archery
...
In addition, for the purpose of meeting the requirements of combat feats and prestige classes, an Arrowsong minstrel treats her bard level as her base attack bonus (in addition to base attack bonuses gained from other classes and Hit Dice).
...
That's not as early as some Ranger builds, but it's as early as a standard Fighter.
http://archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Deadeye%20Bowman
Deadeye Bowman - Erastil religion trait
Source Inner Sea Gods pg. 219 (Amazon)
Category Religion
Requirement(s) Erastil
When you are using a longbow, if only a single creature is providing soft cover to your target, your target does not receive the +4 bonus to AC.
I really wish I could take out the "bards are useless pansies in pink tights who can't do anything lol" stereotype and shoot it repeatedly in the head.
I can provide a couple of players so you can try to exorcise the stereotype out of them...
I really wish I could take out the "bards are useless pansies in pink tights who can't do anything lol" stereotype and shoot it repeatedly in the head.what makes the bard great for you?
Rather than have everyone list all of the features that they like (which will vary depending on individual tastes, particular adventures, party composition, etc.), why don't you tell us what role you want to play and what features you are interested in having. It would enable us to be much more helpful.
And the most important reason for playing a bard:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html
Bards have nice party buffs while doing decent melee/archery or archetypes to make them crazy damage characters but selfish.
Plus the ability to be awesome at so many skills, and a great spell list for buffs (heroism at lv4!).
Really the question is what is there to dislike about the bard?
Now it is true that bards are needed to be built to be useful and can't just build whatever and be good. If you go some crazy no combat stats build then you can't do combat with them. But it's really easy to build them to do combat and still be good at all the other stuff you'd want them to do.
The bard class has a really strong and versatile chassis so if you show up with the idea "I'm going to play a bard" you can build a bard that fits very nicely into basically any kind of party (even a party consisting entirely of bards, which is awesome.)
The strength of Pathfinder's class design is in the bevvy of quality 6 level casters, and the Bard is perhaps the best designed of the ones near the top of the power spectrum.
I'm currently playing a Halfling Negotiator which, all things considered, is probably one of the worse archetypes since it loses Inspire Courage and Versatile Performance. But I'll be damned if he isn't the ultimate Face, being able to always take 10 on all the classic Face skills at level 5 while getting some pretty hefty bonuses on them. There were many situations that were solved or at least salvaged solely through his silver tongue. It is incredibly fun.
In addition to wonderful, stacking buffs; save enhancers/replacers; skill multipliers (Versatile Performance); and unique spells, you can also get:
- Group movement enhancers (Triple Time masterpiece)
- Counterspell (without knowing the spell) on certain spells from first level
- Marvelous, AoE debuffs (Slow, Blistering Invective)
IMHO, Blistering Invective deserves special mention. Running a STR-build, half-orc bard, I have an Intimidate score of about 29 at 11th level (don't have the character sheet with me), which allows me to reliably deliver the Shaken condition for 4-5 rounds to mooks, and even to lieutenants/sub-bosses for 2-3 rounds, as well as delivering some softening-up with minor fire damage!
AND, I get to write the ballads of our adventures after the fact - including, in at least one case, allowing me to promise a Cloud Giant Oracle (not the character class, a Delphi-type Oracle) that her Gryphon guard that died helping us defend her from a raiding party of Fire Giants would be immortalized for his bravery and heroism in the human lands when we get back. No mechanical benefit (that I know of), but the Oracle was touched by the gesture, and gave us her blessing as we left to follow the directions she gave us to the artifact Frost Brand that will be needed against the Fire Giant horde.... (homebrew game)
I am having more fun playing Evard Thrush than I have had in a very long time.
I been looking at it and looking at it and not really feeling it at all. what exactly does the bard do that makes it amazing? sure he can sing and dance and then you make a roll and depending on that roll you can buff your party members.
You shouldn't generally. Bards are OK at everything. Bards are the best 5th member, once all other roles are filled. Bards are a force multiplier which makes all of your other characters better at basically everything. They can fill in when another party member goes down, or help when that role becomes stretched to thin in a big fight.
You can play a bard if your game is heavy on the RP and you don't have to worry about party balance. But if you're playing in any official Paizo content, it's generally assumed that your party is going to be somewhat strong and balanced.
Classic "Buffer" Bards are more useful the larger the party is.
Pathfinder has so many class options you can also make a Bard into just about anything.
And then there are the knowledge checks, which MATTER unless your GM eliminates them, but that is like eliminating rolling to hit, honestly.
Beyond that are the CHA skills, which also matter unless your GM doesn't care, and is again like not caring about BAB.
I guess what I'm trying to say is they are one of the most powerful classes if you play by all the rules :p
Full Support Bard, level 9:
Inspire Courage: +7 Atk/Dmg
+3 levels (with boost from banner of ancient kings)
+2 Master/Grandmaster Performer
+1 Dervish Sikke
+1 Three Reasons to Live
Flagbearer: +2 Atk/Dmg
Total: +9 Atk/Dmg to everyone.
That's very powerful at level 9.
Where I'm from there is a saying "If you have to ask, you ain't down"
I believe, that fits the script here.
IF you have to ask this board what's exciting about a bard, you probably
1. don't have the "system mastery" to enjoy playing one,
2. are only focused on combat/"power", or
3. you understand the system and power curve but aren't keen on what the bard brings to the table.
Either way it's probably a sign that you shouldn't be playing one.
so, for my two cents:
The basic inspire courage is a multiplier for martials. It makes you hit/shooters hit/shoot better. If you don't have many of those, then you probably want to go with a witch (who specialize in debuffs, particularly to saves, which makes them multipliers for casters). The buffs in the spell list compliment this role.
Otherwise, it is a skill monkey with mind spells to support it, as well as a decent amount of melee ability if necessary.
I will admit that it can feel bad at times. The problem is that, while your 3/4 BAB+inspire courage is nice, and about the level expected for other melee casters (such as inquisitor), you are expected to also be buffing a martial character. This becomes a problem when you compare the end result to yourself- the full martial will have full BAB + their class's attack booster (rage, weapon training, etc) + your inspire courage. This can easily reasult in ~+30 by the end... which makes your +20 feel poor in comparison.
This is not logical, of course- you are bringing everyone up a notch... but it doesn't feel quite as good to melee when the next guy over has about an extra +10 on you. It makes you feel like a core rogue next to a barbarian. This could be a mechanical problem if the GM 'compensates' for the fact that the entire party has higher attack stat due to you.
bards have plenty of combat power.
Arcane Duelist, Archeologist, Dawnflower dervish, Busker, Arrowsong Minstrel, Duettist, Silver Balladeer, Voice of the Wild
All are good for a combat power bard. Some are more selfish/better than others.
Archeologist pulls off +3 to like everything as a swift at lv5.
Dawnflower dervish has +4 to attack and damage as move at lv5.
Both can have heroism for +2 to attack and arcane strike for +2 to damage at lv5.
that's +6 to attack and damage, +3 bab +4 str is +13 for 1d8+12 damage at lv5. A barb with power attack at 5 is like +9 for 2d6+15
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Looks like I am late for the Bard's Tale. :D
Our group is in the 5th book of Rise of the Rune Lords. I have a 13th level Arcane Duelist Bard. Why? I started out as a Magus but we had interparty conflict so I changed classes. I wanted something close to the Magus. The AD turned out to be close. I eventually get to wear Heavy armor just as I would have as the Magus. Some of the spells are the same. I'm using a Katana just as I did with my old character. but with the AD, I have a +3 Shield. The GM allowed me to use a couple of PFS feats: Master Performer and Grand Master Performer. Now I have Inspire Courage going almost all the time at +5/+5. My Bard has pretty good HP and AC to take on the worst enemies. I actually like my spell collection like Greater Bladed Dash and Dance of 100 Cuts. The AD Bard is a fun melee character to play.
Dawnflower Dervish + Singing Steel: making barbarians look like weaklings since 2017...
I wonder which archetype bard is the strongest, according to the community?
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Bard's are a strong and versatile class, though they still carry over some of the baggage from previous editions, such as the stereotype of the prancing minstrel.
My best advice: Don't play a prancing minstrel.
Bards are in many ways akin conceptually to playing inquisitors; Same BAB, same HP, same base skill points, both get class features enhancing skills, and both get 6/9 casting, albeit with a very different list. Thing is, inquisitor class features, although powerful, only really improve the inquisitor, while the bard abilities improve the entire party. This means that when you've buffed the party to the eyeballs, your bard is unlikely to be rolling similar numbers to the buffed fighter... but probably isn't too far off an unbuffed fighter (if built to fight), and that is nothing to be sneezed at.
And in combat, there are a few different styles that I've seen work very effectively;
- I've seen bards work well focusing on control spells and abilities. They generally need to go heavy on Cha for the bonus slots and saving throws, but they're one of the few bard archetypes who actually need a lot of Charisma (most only need 'enough to get by').
- I've seen bards work well as Str based melee characters - especially if they dip a level of fighter or barbarian - as combining high Str, buffs, average BAB and abilities such as Arcane Strike works well, especially going the TWF route. Going this route; Strength is king, followed by enough Dex to qualify for feats and Con. Charisma is "enough to cast spells".
- I've seen bards work well as Dex based melee characters, using either Slashing Grace, Fencing Grace, Dervish Dance or in some cases dipping 3 levels in unchained rogue and going TWF. Going this route, you can leave Str behind and focus on boosting Dex and Con, to be tougher as well as handing out more damage. But it is feat heavy.
- I've seen bards work well as archers, which normally means focusing on Dex to compensate for rogue BAB and the various attack penalties, but a bit of Str helps too.
The key thing to remember is that unless spellcasting is your primary focus, Charisma is not a priority, merely a necessity to throw a little into it to keep the spell levels ticking along. Similarly, you have a base of 6 skill points per level; you might be tempted to raise Int to grab even more... but frankly you have Versatile Performance and Bardic Knowledge to help bolster skills and conserve ranks - combat stats should generally come first. Trying to 'round out' your stats/options generally only serves to make the character unfocused and lacklustre at any one particular thing.
Or in fewer words: Pick a shtick and go with it. :P
I am thinking of supporting. but it seems like the only thing available. I tried a blasting alchemist. and it could not compete. I am currently trying a max int witch but it can't pop a hex to save her life.
Wait. What? A blaster alchemist can't compete?! What's in the rest of your party? Also a witch shouldn't be having problems landing hexes...
PS bards are awesome.
Three Reasons to live is a magical instrument that makes you count as higher level for the performance bonuses. It is detailed in the Archives of Nethys.
Dawnflower Dervish + Singing Steel: making barbarians look like weaklings since 2017...What's Singing Steel?
A new kind of Mithril from AA2. A bard with an appropriate weapon or armor can activate his Bardic Performance one step faster.
So a move action becomes a swift action activation. It's pretty pricy, but for light armor it's only 750 GP extra. So basically you can get a chainshirt before you reach Level 2.