A friend and I have been discussing GMing techniques, optional rules, homebrew, the general benefits of various d20 seytems, etc., and something that comes up often is class balance. E.g., the oft-perceived caster-martial disparity, Sorcerers vs. Wizards, Fighters vs. Barbarians, etc. However, it is tough to outline where it exists, and exactly why.
I basically want to poll these forums to see if I can get some consensus as to where in Pathfinder imbalance is the most prevalent. I know that there is broad disagreement on this topic, so I am happy to just get opinions. Most useful to me would be opinions that pinpoint what levels imbalance becomes apparent, and why. Any perceived instances of one class (or individual option such as archetypes, feats, or class ability choices) broadly overshadowing another are interesting to me, especially where a specific combination of options is at play.
So, for example, I want to know at what level people usually think
* Casters overtake non-casters in general utility
* Fighters are overshadowed by other classes (Barbarians?) in damage and combat options
* Core Rogues/Monks appear to be ineffectual in combat (and to what extent Unchained fixes this)
* The differences between Sorcerer and Wizard become most noticeable
* Combat feat chains like Two-Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike, etc. become undesirable
* etc.
Of course, any disagreement as to whether any imbalances exist at all is welcome. I am not super interested in what people perceive the best 3rd party fixes to be, but I won't be unhappy with suggestions as long as they do not overtake my general purpose of identifying imbalances. Generally, I would be happy for folks to include or limit themselves to material that they feel most comfortable discussing, as long as they give some sort of description of the breadth of material they are discussing when giving their opinions.
1. I find casters pass non casters in general utility somewhere between 5 and 10 depending on group make up.
2. A well built fighter is going to competitive in damage dealing with other classes until 20. Where fighters struggle is out of combat options or really anything other than I hit it with my sword/shoot it with my bow.
3. A very optimized rogue with a group that works with the rogue to maximize his effectiveness is a decent combatant. This is even more true with Unchained Rogue. However there are so many situations where a rogue won't do well that generally they seriously under perform in combat by level 5 or so. Vanilla monks are kinda the opposite of fighters. They have lots of combat tricks but none of them do much damage. The unchained monk is a stronger combatant but again needs lots of optimization to perform as well as classes that don't need as much.
4. I find wizards to be more toolboxes of spells and sorcerers to be more focused in one area. But I think this is more dependent on the player and their style then differences built into the classes themselves.
5. Vital strike is really good for specialty builds but otherwise I don't see it being used enough to justify it. The problem with the Two-Weapon fighting feat line is that you have to take a ton of feats to do as much damage as the next guy with a two handed weapon and Power Attack. It just doesn't seem worth it unless you really have your heart set on two weapon fighting.
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It's fun running a 4 year campaign because I've seen all levels of play from level 1 to 17.
Martials:
* Strong at 1st level
* Power declines slightly between 2nd and 5th level but still solid
* Power spike at 6th level when they gain an iterative attack
* Between 7th to 10th level, their overall usefulness starts declining as other classes get stronger and enemies gain better tactical and defensive abilities
* Between 11th to 20th level, they become GODS OF DAMAGE. Though most martials lack abilities to deal with advanced monster abilities and tactics, they can pretty much slaughter anything in one or two rounds unless the monster has a defense against their attacks.
Full arcane spellcasters:
* Weak at 1st and 2nd level
* Solid when they receive 2nd level spells
* Power spike when they receive 3rd level spells
* Power continues to rise all the way to 20th level
Full divine spellcasters
* Solid for low levels
* Power spike when they receive 4th or 5th level spells as their spell selection gets much more interesting and useful
* Power continues to steadily rise all the way to 20th level
6-level spellcasters
* Solid at 1st level, though largely because they're given strong class features
* Power spike at 3rd or 4th level as they gain a solid base attack bonus and 2nd level spells
* Strong between 4th and 6th levels
* Solid between 7th and 10th levels
* At 11th level, power starts declining significantly as full casters and martials eclipse them
* Power at high levels depends heavily on the class features due to the significant gap compared to full spellcasters and martials.
* Casters overtake non-casters in general utility
assuming 6th level caster's count as casters this happens at lv1-2, and only gets worse from there. Non-casters only ever have 2 options, sword or skill. Caster's get those, often is better at those than non-casters, and get more options.
* Fighters are overshadowed by other classes (Barbarians?) in damage and combat options
Fighters are overshadowed at lv1 to other martial classes. by lv5 the fighter has caught up, and as they continue (especially once they get gloves of dueling) they will actually surpass others.
* Core Rogues/Monks appear to be ineffectual in combat (and to what extent Unchained fixes this)
The reason for this is that they are 3/4 bab classes, that are quite MAD, and they don't have in class attack boosters. Unchained really helps them. Unchained lets rogues ignore str and still pull off damage when not sneak attacking. Monks get an effective +2 to their attacks by having everything be at full bab.
* The differences between Sorcerer and Wizard become most noticeable
lv3 and every odd level thereafter except 19 when the wizard has a new spell level and the sorcerer doesn't.
* Combat feat chains like Two-Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike, etc. become undesirable
TWF is feat intensive so can come online at later levels, and comes with the penalty to attack rolls, So you want something that has big attack roll boosters and damage boosters per hit. Vital strike's problem is that standard action attacks quickly become the inefficient way of dealing damage and that it's lots of feats to keep up with it, So you're often better off getting a different feat than it.
1) unless they only cast spells like magic missile caster utility will start of higher and this will just get more exaggerated.
2) I mean at level 1 and 20 they're both doing overkill who does more overkill isn't that interesting to me.
3) because they have 3/4 Bab and nothing to really address that accuracy problem with.
4) Odd levels and I'd say around like 5-10 where wizards are getting a lot of spells and the sorc list is still quite small, in the high levels any 9th level caster can have a LOT of tricks in their toolbox. I've never really compared these classes like that though, when I make a sorc I start out thinking they are gonna have a trick that they're just the best at by far, I don't so much with wizards.
5) depends on the build.
* Solid at 1st level, though largely because they're given strong class features
* Power spike at 3rd or 4th level as they gain a solid base attack bonus and 2nd level spells
* Strong between 4th and 6th levels
* Solid between 7th and 10th levels
* At 11th level, power starts declining significantly as full casters and martials eclipse them
* Power at high levels depends heavily on the class features due to the significant gap compared to full spellcasters and martials.
this is kind of a weird analyses to me
Strong at first level because of strong class features? surely thats every class, Witches Hexes make them strong at first level, sorcs spell slots, barbs rage.
At 11 - Maybe you're looking at some in particular? At level 10 Inquisitors and War priests are the highest DPR archers in the game, pretty sure synthesist summoners and vivisectionist alchemists are up there with barbs for melee dominance.
and point me to the class that doesn't depend on class features at high level? Full bab is a class features, 9th level spells are a class feature. I don't mean to come of nasty or anything but I don't understand what you're getting at.
So, for example, I want to know at what level people usually think
1* Casters overtake non-casters in general utility
2* Fighters are overshadowed by other classes (Barbarians?) in damage and combat options
3* Core Rogues/Monks appear to be ineffectual in combat (and to what extent Unchained fixes this)
4* The differences between Sorcerer and Wizard become most noticeable
5* Combat feat chains like Two-Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike, etc.
become undesirable
1. It really depends on how much the utility things come up in the game. Skills have unlimited used, but spells tend to do the same function better. If they are in constant use then the caster is not going to use spells nearly as often, but if they hardly come up then the caster is more likely to use magic to solve the problem. You also have to look at "potential" vs "actual games". Potentially I would say around level 7, but in actuality most castes aren't going to just have utility spells prepped for every situation, and skills(theirs or someone else's) actually help them save spells.
2. Level 1.
3. This varies a lot depending on the player's skill level and how the GM runs his table. They can do ok, or they can be pretty terrible from level 1 to 20.
4. At level 1 when you really have to count your spells it is really good to be a sorcerer, but by level 9 you are hardly going to run out of spells for the day in most games I see so the sorcerer advantage is definitely trumped by the wizard's larger spell selection. However it wont make a huge difference since both classes are really powerful. It's kinda like the difference between having 100 million dollars or having 60 million dollars. There is a definite difference, but I wont see too many people complain about what 60 million can do for them.
5. TWF stays useful all the way to 20. If you cant bypass DR then it gets weakened, however when you have bonuses such as the ones from favored enemy, and smite you can put out a lot of damage.
Vital Strike is a bad option from day 1.
Cleave on the other hand is good at lower levels, and falls behind as you get to make more and more attacks.
1) unless they only cast spells like magic missile caster utility will start of higher and this will just get more exaggerated.
2) I mean at level 1 and 20 they're both doing overkill who does more overkill isn't that interesting to me.
3) because they have 3/4 Bab and nothing to really address that accuracy problem with.
4) Odd levels and I'd say around like 5-10 where wizards are getting a lot of spells and the sorc list is still quite small, in the high levels any 9th level caster can have a LOT of tricks in their toolbox. I've never really compared these classes like that though, when I make a sorc I start out thinking they are gonna have a trick that they're just the best at by far, I don't so much with wizards.
5) depends on the build.
* Solid at 1st level, though largely because they're given strong class features
* Power spike at 3rd or 4th level as they gain a solid base attack bonus and 2nd level spells
* Strong between 4th and 6th levels
* Solid between 7th and 10th levels
* At 11th level, power starts declining significantly as full casters and martials eclipse them
* Power at high levels depends heavily on the class features due to the significant gap compared to full spellcasters and martials.this is kind of a weird analyses to me
Strong at first level because of strong class features? surely thats every class, Witches Hexes make them strong at first level, sorcs spell slots, barbs rage.
At 11 - Maybe you're looking at some in particular? At level 10 Inquisitors and War priests are the highest DPR archers in the game, pretty sure synthesist summoners and vivisectionist alchemists are up there with barbs for melee dominance.
and point me to the class that doesn't depend on class features at high level? Full bab is a class features, 9th level spells are a class feature. I don't mean to come of nasty or anything but I don't understand what you're getting at.
Class features when discussed are talking about things such as the abilities that each class gives, such as sneak attack or smite evil, but I definitely don't agree with martial characters passing 6th level casters at later levels. They might do more damage, but the 6th level casters can do pretty good damage, and they have the utility to solve problems that sharp pieces of metal can't fix.
At level 10 at least the best archers in a DPR sense aren't the full martials. They're inquisitors and arsenal chaplain warpriests. At melee I suspect a shocking grasp magus may be the most damaging as long as their 1st level spell slots hold out, or at least up there with the martials.
The advantage of the martials at higher levels is being easier to play. This does matter to some people.
And all of this can vary a lot from campaign to campaign. In a "sprint" casters are stronger, but in a "marathon" martials can do better. It's just that most games don't prevent the players from making every marathon into a series of sprints.
In the later levels the amount of encounters it takes for Casters to actually run out of spells is quite insane.
In the early levels sure, but by the time they have like 6th or 7th level casting running out of spells shouldn't be happening often.
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1. Utility spells can trump skills as early as level 1, but in an effective party, why use up a limited resource (spell) to do what can be done for free with a skill? IME you really need to get into the realm of things like fly and teleport before utility spells become more cost effective. So level 5-9.
2. Fighters are competitive at combat pretty much all the way through. It's out of combat where they can have problems.
3. Core monks/rogues really depends on the player. I have a friend who refuses to play an unchained rogue because he thinks the CRB rogue is already the most powerful class, and in his hands it's quite good. I've seen him play a rogue at level 17 that was MVP in fights. I couldn't duplicate what he does but he has the magic touch when it comes to rogues. Based on this I would say the real issue is that these classes require a level of devotion and system mastery to make work well that many players do not possess.
4. I've played a lot of both sorcerers and wizards, and honestly I love gaining odd levels as both. For a wizard, gaining a new spell level is a big deal as your options expand. But for a sorcerer, it's the level you don't gain a new spell level where your options expand. You get a lot more spells known at odd levels, while at even you usually get one new spell plus a cantrip. When everyone was going for PrCs back in 3.0/3.5 the spell level delay was a bigger deal, but it doesn't bother me as much in PF. If your sorcerer really wants access to higher level spells one level early buy some wizard scrolls. Your caster level is still good enough to cast them.
Invisibility and Knock and too fairly useful spells that replace skills.
In the later levels the amount of encounters it takes for Casters to actually run out of spells is quite insane.
In the early levels sure, but by the time they have like 6th or 7th level casting running out of spells shouldn't be happening often.
In the mid levels, you still have problems with not having the right spell of the right level at the right time. Sure, if you want to do nothing but damage every round, you could set that up to have a spell to cast every round, but if you're talking about doing utility too, then it's much less likely.
Now, if you're talking about very high level, then there is that problem. Because most of the really good utility spells fall in the middle of the spell levels and at very high levels, those slots will just sit around until they are needed.
I don't really agree
You take a damage spell at every other spell level (if you bother at all) and then just go utility spells once you get overland flight for example, and a rod of extend, thats like 20 hours of never really needing climb, or swim or even an AC score against most enemies, like I said knock and invisibility level 2 spells that make disable device and stealth less interesting. Heck even Vanish can be pretty Handy.
Summon Monster I and Knock pretty much made disable device redundant because your sad little buddy can just trigger traps for you xD. Or my favorite thing ever to do is just to stone shape the wall about 10 ft from the dangerous trapped/locked door and walk in xD.
My oracle did that once when a DM blocked a doorway with a prismatic wall xD at a certain point the doors are no longer worth bothering with.
And how often do you actually need to circumvent these challenges that you're actually running through your spell slots? Like seriously I'm not even talking theoretically I've done these things, I didn't find I needed multiple castings of fly and invisibility and knock everyday.
The other thing with God wizard builds is that they don't really need to cast more than 1 or 2 spells a combat.
From Color Spray, into Glitterdust and create pit, into Haste into black tentacles
You maybe haste round one and then a control spell be it a pit or some glitter or some hentai you only need to do one of them and then your big stick friend kills the things you've neutered, don't just keep casting every turn, you will run out of spells doing that.
So yeah early on sure they have limited ammo by the mid levels I wouldn't worry.
* Casters overtake non-casters in general utility
That really depends on the class and build. I find the 6-level casters (like Bard, Inquisitor, or Summoner) tend to have the best utility at 1st level.
* Fighters are overshadowed by other classes (Barbarians?) in damage and combat options
Not really true anymore thanks to the buffs the fighter class has been getting over the past few years. Between the favorable archetypes, advanced weapon training, advanced armor training, and combat stamina we basically have an unchained fighter at this point.
* Core Rogues/Monks appear to be ineffectual in combat (and to what extent Unchained fixes this)
Core Rogue and (unarchetyped) Monk are below the curve even at 1st level, and just fall further behind from there. A good player and build can keep them afloat, but if you're playing alongside a reasonably well optimized group you'll lag behind noticably in combat.
Unchained Rogue is a huge help, giving the class a solid niche and the abilities it needs to be a functional class. The Monk, on the other hand, was already doing reasonably well prior to Pathfinder Unchained due to some extremely favorable archetypes. The Unchained Monk is incompatible with those archetypes. While it's decisively superior to the core unarchetyped Monk, it was actually a slight downgrade compared to what you could do with archetypes. Since then Paizo has apparently abandoned the Unchained Monk and is not publishing archetypes for it.
* The differences between Sorcerer and Wizard become most noticeable
At odd-numbered levels the Wizard decisively outclasses the Sorcerer due to being a spell level ahead, while at even-numbered levels they're reasonably close. This comparison can also vary strongly by campaign.
* Combat feat chains like Two-Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike, etc. become undesirable
If anything, TWF is at its worst at low levels and gets better at higher levels. The big problem with TWF is the hefty feat requirement and low damage. High level characters have more feats to burn, and more avenues to supplement their damage output.
Vital Strike is only ever useful for specialized builds; for the majority of characters it's never useful.
The differences between Sorcerer and Wizard become most noticeable.
The difference is most noticeable at level 5. But any level where wizards get access to a new spell level is noticeable. The difference becomes negligible after level 18 thanks to Mnemonic Vestments and the feat Versatile Spontenaity.
A friend and I have been discussing GMing techniques, optional rules, homebrew, the general benefits of various d20 seytems, etc., and something that comes up often is class balance. E.g., the oft-perceived caster-martial disparity, Sorcerers vs. Wizards, Fighters vs. Barbarians, etc. However, it is tough to outline where it exists, and exactly why.
I basically want to poll these forums to see if I can get some consensus as to where in Pathfinder imbalance is the most prevalent. I know that there is broad disagreement on this topic, so I am happy to just get opinions. Most useful to me would be opinions that pinpoint what levels imbalance becomes apparent, and why. Any perceived instances of one class (or individual option such as archetypes, feats, or class ability choices) broadly overshadowing another are interesting to me, especially where a specific combination of options is at play.
So, for example, I want to know at what level people usually think
* Casters overtake non-casters in general utility
* Fighters are overshadowed by other classes (Barbarians?) in damage and combat options
* Core Rogues/Monks appear to be ineffectual in combat (and to what extent Unchained fixes this)
* The differences between Sorcerer and Wizard become most noticeable
* Combat feat chains like Two-Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike, etc. become undesirable
* etc.
Of course, any disagreement as to whether any imbalances exist at all is welcome. I am not super interested in what people perceive the best 3rd party fixes to be, but I won't be unhappy with suggestions as long as they do not overtake my general purpose of identifying imbalances. Generally, I would be happy for folks to include or limit themselves to material that they feel most comfortable discussing, as long as they give some sort of description of the breadth of material they are discussing when giving their opinions.
1). Around level 5 a prepared full caster has the spell slots to start shining in utility. Before that, most spells are saved for combat to avoid running dry. The imbalance is there levels 1-20, but most don't actually routinely prep utility or even leave enough open spell slots to outstrip anyone. Even then, most players won't try to eclipse skills with spells if anyone in the party can do it. Spells are generally too valuable to give up if a free skill check can suffice.
2). Fighters have this problem more at low levels than high ones, suffering from too few skills, no real class features, and no other class abilities to help. Advanced Weapon and Armor Training both help a lot by offering more skills, better defenses, crafting, and limited spellcasting.
3). If you optimize enough, they don't seem too ineffective. Its just a lot of work for a small gain. Unchained gave rogues a role beyond damage in combat, and made them better with skills. This improved their usefulness over an Investigator or Slayer who could do comparably with skills and be better at melee, because now rogue also applies a debuff which helps everyone. Monk got the ability to do good damage with the accuracy bump, a more flexible set of utility powers, and a series of combat options which improved the synergy of class features.
4). Every odd level beyond 1 the power gap is noticed. Particularly around levels 5-9 when utility spells like explosive runes and shrink item can be used in downtime and not on adventure days. Ultimately though, it isn't really the difference between wizard and sorcerer that imbalances the game, its the difference between them and full BAB classes.
5). At the point where a feat is replicating its predecessor it becomes redundant and painful. Twf is great, but ITWF isn't and GTWF is pretty bad. If they scaled and the improved/greater versions gave new benefits beyond more attacks (like AC or accuracy buffs, or DR mitigation) it would be more attractive. Vital strike is in the same boat. If all 3 were in one, it would be much better, and actually a solid pick for anyone who had a free feat as well as for specialist builds.
As a more general note, around levels 5-9 the game imbalance begins to show up, but usually it isn't until 11ish when it becomes a problem for people at the table IME. 5-9 are actually some of the more fun levels because things are finally pulling together from the disparate pieces of spells known and feat taxes taken to feat chain capstones and signature moves.
* Solid at 1st level, though largely because they're given strong class features
* Power spike at 3rd or 4th level as they gain a solid base attack bonus and 2nd level spells
* Strong between 4th and 6th levels
* Solid between 7th and 10th levels
* At 11th level, power starts declining significantly as full casters and martials eclipse them
* Power at high levels depends heavily on the class features due to the significant gap compared to full spellcasters and martials.this is kind of a weird analyses to me
Strong at first level because of strong class features? surely thats every class, Witches Hexes make them strong at first level, sorcs spell slots, barbs rage.
At 11 - Maybe you're looking at some in particular? At level 10 Inquisitors and War priests are the highest DPR archers in the game, pretty sure synthesist summoners and vivisectionist alchemists are up there with barbs for melee dominance.
and point me to the class that doesn't depend on class features at high level? Full bab is a class features, 9th level spells are a class feature. I don't mean to come of nasty or anything but I don't understand what you're getting at.
I understand what you mean. While spells are technically class features, I mean class features outside of spellcasting.
6-level spellcasters tend to focus on features outside of spellcasting to provide a contribution to their party. They rely more these features as they reach beyond level 10 because of the widening gap between their spellcasting and base attack bonus has compared to full casters and martials.
Bards and summoners are excellent examples of this. Bardic performances and skill abilities are the main focus of the bard; these are the main way a bard contributes to a party. The same goes for the summoner's eidolon, a very powerful class feature that the entire class revolves around.
Contrast with martials and full casters. A martial's main contribution will almost always be stabbing or shooting things. A full spellcaster's main contribution will almost always be casting spells. While they certainly have other class features, those features are usually designed to support that main contribution or give the class a little extra utility so they aren't one-trick ponies.
At 1st level, most martials and full arcane spellcasters don't have as much in the way of class features outside of spells and armor/weapon proficiencies. The barbarian and witch are somewhat of anomalies. The barbarian class is almost totally front-loaded with the rage class feature. The witch's hexes are more powerful than arcane school powers and bloodlines because witches have an inferior spell list compared to wizards and sorcerers.
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Invisibility and Knock and too fairly useful spells that replace skills.
I just don't find the Pathfinder version of knock to be all that useful. It's easily outperformed by any character with a decent Dex, trapfinding, max ranks and a cheap masterwork tools. Knock was great when it automatically worked, but a +13 from a wand isn't that good when DCs tend to start at 25 and go to 40 (and you can't take 20). Sure a caster could use a personal spell slot but wasting a slot just to slightly "obsolete" another party member isn't actually a good use of a spell.
I understand what you mean. While spells are technically class features, I mean class features outside of spellcasting.
6-level spellcasters tend to focus on features outside of spellcasting to provide a contribution to their party. They rely more these features as they reach beyond level 10 because of the widening gap between their spellcasting and base attack bonus has compared to full casters and martials.
I see what you mean I just think with particular classes that do this in the early levels they can't rely on their special thing as much as they'd like because it's extremely limited uses, Alchemists bombs, focus powers and worst of all judgements are some obvious examples.
Bards and summoners are excellent examples of this. Bardic performances and skill abilities are the main focus of the bard; these are the main way a bard contributes to a party. The same goes for the summoner's eidolon, a very powerful class feature that the entire class revolves around.
I'd agree with the examples you give but I wouldn't say that applies to all the 3/4 classes, early game inquisitors for example.
And where does a Kineticts fit in xD
Contrast with martials and full casters. A martial's main contribution will almost always be stabbing or shooting things. A full spellcaster's main contribution will almost always be casting spells. While they certainly have other class features, those features are usually designed to support that main contribution or give the class a little extra utility so they aren't one-trick ponies.At 1st level, most martials and full arcane spellcasters don't have as much in the way of class features outside of spells and armor/weapon proficiencies. The barbarian and witch are somewhat of anomalies. The barbarian class is almost totally front-loaded with the rage class feature. The witch's hexes are more powerful than arcane school powers and bloodlines because witches have an inferior spell list compared to wizards and sorcerers.
I see what you're saying I guess my point is 3/4 classes are a bit more varied that the 1/2 and full BAB classes so generalising them is more difficult.
@ryric
I may just be used to a party that neglects disable device.
Since then Paizo has apparently abandoned the Unchained Monk and is not publishing archetypes for it
this isn't true, there are currently at least 8 archetypes for the class
Since then Paizo has apparently abandoned the Unchained Monk and is not publishing archetypes for itthis isn't true, there are currently at least 8 archetypes for the class
It seems I was mistaken; there is a trickle of Unchained Monk archetypes out there. Still, 8 archetypes total after more than 2 years leaves the UMonk pretty barren.
• Casters overtake non-casters in general utility: In my experience, about 7th level. Martials actually lose effectiveness due to the stupid Full-Attack rule and spells always get better. AND lower level spells get better too. Not to mention that spell-slots increase and they're just as likely to get magical items too, like Scrolls and Wands which further increase their versatility.
• Fighters are overshadowed by other classes (Barbarians?) in damage and combat options: Take the Paladin, they get smite and a bevy of immunity to stuff, plus they get spells and self heal. AND they attack at the same rate as a Fighter. Sure they miss out on some fighter-specific stuff but mostly that's just specialized feats like Trip or Two-Weapon Fighting or maybe better usage with the Bow. Otherwise "meh". Barbarians are just better damage dealers, have better skills, and generally get better effects with their Rage than the features a Fighter gets.
• Core Rogues/Monks appear to be ineffectual in combat (and to what extent Unchained fixes this): I'm playing a Unchained Rogue/Stalker/Shadow Dancer that averages about 110 DPR when I get a full attack and Sneak Attack. But I always hear bad things about the Monk.
• The differences between Sorcerer and Wizard become most noticeable: I'd say as early as 5th level, when the Wizard is getting feats and making lots of scrolls, thus increasing their versatility and capability vs. just more Magic Missile and flashy spells.
• Combat feat chains like Two-Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike, etc. become undesirable: The penalty to TWF is arbitrary and a poor hold over from 3.5 that should've most likely been done away with. I'm not sure about Vital Strike but things like Improved Trip basically are pointless when the campaigns routinely fight monsters that are huge or bigger. Take the Hook Mountain Massacare (Rise of the Runelords) in which you fight LOTS of Large and Huge monsters. Chances you you beating their CMD even with a tripping weapon and Strength modifiers is particularly difficult because it doesn't scale well.
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1. Utility spells can trump skills as early as level 1, but in an effective party, why use up a limited resource (spell) to do what can be done for free with a skill? IME you really need to get into the realm of things like fly and teleport before utility spells become more cost effective. So level 5-9.Well it's a good job there's another player whose class's primary focus is to make sure your casters doesn't have to 'use up a limited resource' doing unimportant things when they could be saved for something that was actually important. It'd be terribly selfish if they made another caster and got to make a cost effective contribution after level 5.
Is there a reason your reply oozes hostility? Sheesh. It's not my responsibility to tell other players what they should play. It is my responsibility to help everyone at the table have a good time - and that includes not trying to usurp the role another player has chosen to be good at, no matter how they've chosen to do it.
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So, for example, I want to know at what level people usually think
(...)
* Core Rogues/Monks appear to be ineffectual in combat (and to what extent Unchained fixes this)
As an enthusiastic rogue player I will focus on the Core rogue. I see the level progression roughly as following:
Level 1 to 4: You unlock numerous class skills, some of them actually help in combat (Acrobatics, Stealth, Knowledge). 3/4 BAB means just -1 AB so far. You pick up two good rogue talents - for example I like casting Vanish 2/day. Your race choice (which is to be done carefully) still pays off. Life is good.
Level 5 to 6: Things become a bit wonky because you don't improve that much when it comes to class features. The only good thing is +1 to all saves at 6, but everyone gets that. Do your choices carefully, for example work on your feint and dirty tricks, get some natural attack or focus further on magic (e.g. with the gloom magic rogue talents).
Level 7 to 9: You acquire a few goodies, like a second attack for the main hand (and probably the off-hand), the option to start crafting via Master Craftsman (there is a nice affordable shortsword already in Core with +4 (!) attack and damage when sneak attacking) and Improved Uncanny Dodge (or whatever you exchange it for via your archetype). Traps are usually spotted and disarmed even with bad rolling. Life is ok again.
Level 10 to 12: You finally made it the advanced rogue talents - a great boost, e.g. because of Hunter's Surprise. Probably you can still improve by finalizing some paths (Improved Two-Weapon Feint, Quick Dirty Trick, Greater Gloom Magic, crafted weapons etc.). But the weak Fortitude and Will saves increasingly hurt, and your AB slowly drops off. Items can compensate somewhat, otherwise you will have to work with your party more often to get things done.
Level 13+: There is still improvement (e.g. the Blinding Strike rogue talent), but you are significantly overshadowed by the casters. In some niches you will be still awesome - your coup de grace is pretty much impossible to save against, enemies with weak Perception are screwed (unless they have special senses), skill checks with set DCs are usually trivial and heck, if you want, you can even move faster than most thanks to Shadow's Speed from the vigilante. Outside of these niches work to complement the casters - for a pragmatical rogue, results count, not the personal glory.
So yes, on the long run your situation becomes difficult. With system mastery, you can postpone that point significantly, but I don't see how to do that till level 20 - maybe with really smart crafting. The campaign might be over before you really struggle, but do you want to bet on it?